V7 Stone - Starting Issue

[archwaykid]

Hello all,
London (England) Guzzista here.

Loving the V7 Stone very much but this morning (Temp - 10C or 50F), I had a nightmare! I start the bike. It revs really high (and I mean real high) and dies. I start it again and again, the same. Just didn't know what to do and I use (need) the bike to commute to work. Eventually I just said, well I'll start shifting gears and see what happens. And that's what I did but did notice a lots of heads turning because the idling was REALLY loud? They must've felt a train approach them or something.

Never had this issue with my Honda Shadow before. So this was a bit of a shock for me.

It's as if the throttle is on just so slightly. So the Idle RPM remains at 20 (if that makes sense). That's too high no? Is this to do with Idlespeed at all?

Coldstart? But surely not. The bike is 2014 with just 1000 miles on it.

Should I take it to a Guzzi dealer?

Bike - V7 Stone 2014

Any words of advice appreciated. I have been riding for a few years but a noob in terms of actual bike maintenance. With the Honda there wasn't much of this 'Owner participation' :)

Look forward to your suggestions and replies.

Ta,
Jay

[Kev m]

Assuming nothing is binding (throttle cables) and there are no obvious leaks (intake manifold-to-throttle body, or to-head)? Then yeah, I'm thinking you should probably see a dealer.

[rocker59]

It should idle at about 1300, so yeah.  2000 is too high.

With such low miles, I guess you've recently bought it?  I would take it to the dealer to have the EFI looked at .

[sib]

Definitely not normal behavior.  After you and your dealer get it fixed, I'd be curious to learn what the problem was.

[archwaykid]

Thank you chaps. I will keep you updated. I'm really hoping it is something silly like the throttle or so. Just disappointed at this.

[canuguzzi]

Something to check before heading to the dealer. Check the idle speed while turbing the handlebars lock to lock. If the idle speed changes, good chance it is twisted or bound cables.

The check throttle operation doing the same. You don't need tobrace the engine and this little test isn't going to hurt a thing. Good idea to be seated on the bike while doing this with rear brake engaged and on center stand if you have one. Safety first.

Easier to check the simple things first. While you can still visit the dealer at least you'll have information to give them one way or another. The dealer can use the information regardless of what the test reveals.

[archwaykid]

Thanks Norge pilot. Appreciate your advice.

Update - So today I had the same high rev start issue. But I noticed the following too -
1) On idle at 1500 rpm, it's as if the throttle is revving ever so slightly. Like for e.g a slight rev every 2 or 3 seconds. Is this normal?
2) When I accelerate to change my gears, the throttle doesn't respond. i.e. It takes a bit of time for the revs to come down.

Really annoying and I just don't know what to do!! Have called the service (she has had a service at 650 miles already!!) people.

Throttle - Have 2 cables running the throttle.

Ta all,
Jay

[Cam3512]

Try letting it warm up for 2-3 minutes BEFORE  taking off.  Sounds like you need the updated map.

[sib]

Try letting it warm up for 2-3 minutes BEFORE  taking off.  Sounds like you need the updated map.

Sounds to me like it needs more than an updated map.  Even the worst maps don't cause that severe a problem.  And to the OP, no, it's not normal, the idle speed shouldn't wander up and down, and when you accelerate to change gears, the throttle shouldn't hesitate before responding.  Get thee to  a dealer.

[O]

Question for the OP:  Before this occurred, did you fill the tank right before parking the bike? 

The reason I ask is that something similar happened to me last week.  Bike was revving high on start-up, but it was a beautiful day, so I was determined to go for a ride.  I quickly got into my gear while it was warming up at the higher idle, and took off.  While on the road, I also noticed surging of revs when off throttle, so after about 20 minutes of this, I pulled over, stopped the engine, and took off the gas cap.  No noticeable "whoosh" to indicate any kind of vacuum in the tank, but after locking the cap back on and starting the bike again, it idled normally, and the surging was gone.  Bike ran perfectly for the next 100 miles, and has run fine since.  Not sure that letting the tank breathe for a bit had anything to do with resolving the high idle/surging, but it's definitely worth a shot.  Good luck!

By the way, I'm running the new map in mine.  I don't think it's related, but if you're not running the latest map for the 1TB 5-speed, it's worth doing anyway.  Much smoother at low speeds.

[archwaykid]

Ta Cam, Sib and O. Appreciate your continued support.

Cam - I'd LOVE to warm the bike 2-3 minutes but the engine just dies. Revs up to about 4000 and dies. So it just wouldn't last that long let alone perhaps 30 secs. It really hurts to hear the bike rev that high. It's something I can't explain.

Chaps I must confess, I am an absolute noob when it comes to maintenance of motorcycles. Was spoilt rotten because I had a Honda Shadow Phantom (Black Spirit in England) before so absolutely ZERO maintenance. The only 'maintenance' that I did do was wash the bike and polish it. That's it. Oh yes, charge the battery.

Since the bike is covered by warranty, I've called the dealer and taking her in next Monday. I am curious myself.

I need a drink!! Have a brilliant day chaps.
I have also just purchased Zimmerman's book on motorcycle maintenance. So that would be good in the interim.

[tonUPRacer]

I hope it is a simple fix. The good news is that you are under warranty, and your dealer that will get you right. In my experience with my bike it never did the severe revving yours is exhibiting, it was just a bit cold blooded on start-up. The updated map did resolve that, but your issue sounds different than simple cold blooded startups. One other thing to watch for is rear seal leaks on the final drive. I had mine replaced under warranty, no problems since.

[kingoffleece]

You'll like the book.
Zimmerman is a personal friend.

[Loftness]

There's actually a new MAP update just released a couple days ago that supposedly addresses issues similar to the one you're having.  I haven't put it on any bikes yet so I don't have further thoughts on it, but thought I'd throw it out there.

[sib]

There's actually a new MAP update just released a couple days ago that supposedly addresses issues similar to the one you're having.  I haven't put it on any bikes yet so I don't have further thoughts on it, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Please tell us more.  Is this new map for the 5-sp V7's or the 6-sp V7-II's?  What is the version number?  As far as I am aware, the latest V7 map is 352BV738 and the latest V7-II map is 4533V796.  Thanks, Sam

[archwaykid]

Hello all,
Update for you.

So today, I started the bike. NO ISSUES and she rode like thunder. Mate, was I happy! Point to note - Temp was 12C or 53F. And on both occassions, when the rev problem happened, the temp was 10c or below 10c. 50F or lower. Could this be a temp related issue perhaps?

Still taking her in on Monday though. Will let you all know the results.

Ta,
J

[Aaron D.]

Sounds to me like it needs more than an updated map.  Even the worst maps don't cause that severe a problem.  And to the OP, no, it's not normal, the idle speed shouldn't wander up and down, and when you accelerate to change gears, the throttle shouldn't hesitate before responding.  Get thee to  a dealer.

Last yearI tested a V7 Stone. It ran as described, brand new at the dealer, and I couldn't believe that a modern EFI bike could escape a factory or dealer running like that.

So I did not buy it. Too bad, I liked most everything else.

[fossil]

Well, my �13 Stone of course is cold blooded. It surges between appr. 1200 and 1400/min. And? As it is a very old-fashioned Italian air-cooled engine I let her warm up some minutes (closing the garage door, fixing the helmet on my head, putting on the gloves....). Then I warm her up carefully while driving. After a few minutes or so she runs beautifully.

I should mention that my engine behaves a bit better when it is cold (about 7�C).

If I would be bothered with this behavior of the engine I could have bought a Honda. For less money. I account this under "character".

To Jay: I would discuss the behavior of your bike with the dealer. And thake a look at the rubber tubes running from the throttle body to the intakes. If the bike draws bleed air here the outcome could be as described.

[mwrenn]

The fact that it is an intermittent issue, combined with low temperature operation would suggest to me that the problem is related to the ECU or the mapping.  Physical problems, bound up throttle cables or loose vacuum connections would probably not go away with temperature changes.
But you never know!  LOL  Looking forward to hearing the solution to this problem.

[archwaykid]

Thank you chaps.

[Kev m]

Like Fossil my Stone has always been a little cold blooded and does surge (only a couple hundred rpm up and down from target idle AT THE MOST) on a cold start. Like Fossil it actually does better in cold weather. One guess I've heard and agree with is that the ECM is actually over-compensating for cold starts and that rich mixture is fine when it is REALLY cold out, but not so good when it is hot and humid (it's a bridge too far then).

Like Mrwen says the intermittent nature points to something mapping related. The temperature component makes me wonder if it is not the poor design of the head temperature sensor. I'm told they are still mounted in such a manner that sometimes masks the actual head temperature from the sensor. However the one hole in that theory is the ONE time it should be correct then would be cold start-up. I.E. on a cold start it should be the exact same temperature (i.e. ambient). Of course, IF it is always reading low, then it could over time cause the ECM to trim the fuel to one extreme, perhaps an extreme that is ok at warmer ambient temps and/or ok when the bike is fully warmed, but not so good on a cold start (I'm assuming that would be leaner than usual) and THAT could wreak havoc on a cold enough start.

Let us know what the dealer says. Should be an easy fix if they can duplicate it.

[Loftness]

Please tell us more.  Is this new map for the 5-sp V7's or the 6-sp V7-II's?  What is the version number?  As far as I am aware, the latest V7 map is 352BV738 and the latest V7-II map is 4533V796.  Thanks, Sam

It's supposedly a standard V7 update though the map number is that same you listed above.  So I don't know if it's an update to the map without number change or if in fact their dealer announcement is simply behind the actual release (ie they released the update well before they announced it).  I'm guessing their announcement is simply late...but I haven 't had a need to be on pads this week so I haven't checked to see if there is indeed anything new there.  If there is, I'll post back.

[sib]

It's supposedly a standard V7 update though the map number is that same you listed above.  So I don't know if it's an update to the map without number change or if in fact their dealer announcement is simply behind the actual release (ie they released the update well before they announced it).  I'm guessing their announcement is simply late...but I haven 't had a need to be on pads this week so I haven't checked to see if there is indeed anything new there.  If there is, I'll post back.

Thanks, Fletch.  I'll wait with bated bike.

[rocker59]

My 2014 V7 Special had a fluctuating idle when I picked it up from the dealer.  It would also stall if not warmed.

A couple weeks ago, I had a dealer update the map with 352BV738 and it ran better.  No stalling when cold.

After my head torque / valve adjust, I pulled the main fuse for a minute, then reinstalled it.  Then I started the bike (using no throttle) and let it idle for 15 minutes.

Now, the idle is dead-on steady at 1300 rpm.  And, I can pull away immediately upon startup when cold.

Totally different bike.

[archwaykid]

Thanks a lot Rocker59. Will bear this mind. Just recd my copy of Zimmerman's book. Will be reading this over the weekend.
I will also, be attempting to refix my Bigsby on my Les Paul. Going out of tune... a lot. Annoying as hell. Atleast it stays in tune for....5 minutes. 

[Guido Valvole]

I had an SG with a Bigsby. *Never* stayed in tune. No idea how John Cipollina kept his more or less in tune. Les Paul is a bit more solid, so maybe a better chance with that. NGC but motorcycle content there - Paul Bigsby was a machinist and chief mechanic for the Crocker motorcycle company, America's Brough. And then there was the Travis-Bigsby solidbody electric guitar, inspiration for one Leo Fender...

No experience with fuel injection but I'd be checking for intake leaks. Even a small hole you can't see can do that. Yamaha YICS comes to mind, yeech.
cr

[archwaykid]

Thanks Guido.

Update -
Started the bike this morning. Temp about 13C (about 56F) and she started fine again.

I'm thinking this might be a sensor issue when it gets cold. I might be wrong.

I'll ask the Dealer on Monday and update.

Have a nice one all

Cheers
J

[Loftness]

So we did end up having to prep a V7 yesterday, and the pads system did indeed download a new update for it (2014 V7).  I haven't been back there to look at the map number, but there seems to indeed be an update to the existing map.  Just passing the info along.

[sib]

So we did end up having to prep a V7 yesterday, and the pads system did indeed download a new update for it (2014 V7).  I haven't been back there to look at the map number, but there seems to indeed be an update to the existing map.  Just passing the info along.

Is this update for the dry alternator or wet alternator bikes?  I believe that the previous updates were different for the two different bikes.  Thanks.

[archwaykid]

So we did end up having to prep a V7 yesterday, and the pads system did indeed download a new update for it (2014 V7).  I haven't been back there to look at the map number, but there seems to indeed be an update to the existing map.  Just passing the info along.

Thanks mate. Will check Monday.