V7 Engine died

[Billy]

Bloody hot yesterday in Melbourne (34 degrees).

I was coming back home through the city, sweating like a pig, almost home (50 minute ride) -- and... my engine just died.

I wheeled to the side of the road, and turned it over, but didn't start (or chuckled a bit then cut out again). Turned the ignition off and on. Sounded like it had no fuel, but I had filled it up that morning. Gave it a short rest, and managed to get it started again - it didn't idle at all, I had to keep it revved to stop it from dying again, while I limped it home.

Later that night after things had cooled down, I started it up, and all was fine.

Is this an overheat thing? Does something need replacing or cleaning? What happened!?

It's a 2012 V7r 1tb

[Kent in Upstate NY]

clogged fuel filter?

[SED]

Old trick to test if ignition module would fail when hot is to start it and turn a hair dryer on it.  Not sure where to aim it on a new V7.

[Stevex]

I remember exactly the same happening to me in the early eighties!!
I was riding through London on my Le Mans II, no such thing as the M25 ring road then and the traffic was horrendous.
She started running like a pig, so I parked up for half an hour, then carried on...she was fine.

[Billy]

clogged fuel filter?

Awesome, thanks - I'll research how to unclog it.

[Murray]

Awesome, thanks - I'll research how to unclog it.

Replacement, although a crap fuel filter usually turns up on full throttle openings first. Does the V7 have a thermal shutdown in the ECU?

[pete roper]

While not impossible I find the idea of a clogged filter unlikely in Oz, our fuel is generally very good.

Can I suggest that if this happens again...

1.) Open the tank lid. Does it 'Whoosh' when you do so? If so the venting system isn't working.

2.) Does it suck air in? If so the vent that allows air in to replace the leaving fuel is blocked.

3.) Are the fuel lines to the injectors kinked to a degree to impair flow?

FWIW I haven't felt the need to replace the fuel filter on either of my 120,000 km shitheaps. They run just fine.

Pete

[sign216]

Take a plug wrench w you.  The next time it happens pull a plug.  If it smells of fuel, then it's getting some, and it might not be a fuel problem. 
 
Then test for spark by connecting the plug to the ignition boot, laying the plug on a metal part so it's grounded, and cranking the bike to see if there's a spark at the plug. 

Another thought, it could be an air leak at the manifold, but those usually aren't temperature related.

[Billy]

While not impossible I find the idea of a clogged filter unlikely in Oz, our fuel is generally very good.

Can I suggest that if this happens again...

1.) Open the tank lid. Does it 'Whoosh' when you do so? If so the venting system isn't working.

2.) Does it suck air in? If so the vent that allows air in to replace the leaving fuel is blocked.

3.) Are the fuel lines to the injectors kinked to a degree to impair flow?

FWIW I haven't felt the need to replace the fuel filter on either of my 120,000 km shitheaps. They run just fine.

Pete

Thanks Pete - Ah I wish I checked this. I'll check this tomorrow after a ride in the hills and hope it doesn't break down again (cool weather tomorrow 24 Deg apparently)

[Billy]

I remember exactly the same happening to me in the early eighties!!
I was riding through London on my Le Mans II, no such thing as the M25 ring road then and the traffic was horrendous.
She started running like a pig, so I parked up for half an hour, then carried on...she was fine.

Did it happen again?

[Billy]

Replacement, although a crap fuel filter usually turns up on full throttle openings first. Does the V7 have a thermal shutdown in the ECU?

Good question - I'd like to know the answer to this...

[Billy]

Take a plug wrench w you.  The next time it happens pull a plug.  If it smells of fuel, then it's getting some, and it might not be a fuel problem. 
 
Then test for spark by connecting the plug to the ignition boot, laying the plug on a metal part so it's grounded, and cranking the bike to see if there's a spark at the plug. 

Another thought, it could be an air leak at the manifold, but those usually aren't temperature related.

Oh man thank you this is good to know!

[Triple Jim]

I wouldn't expect a thermal shutdown to cause poor running.  It would be no running at all.

[malik]

A similar thing happened to my 2014 1TB in 38 degree peak hour Sydney traffic 25km from home. Rough running, smells of unburnt fuel, surging idle, 3 cooling stops to limp home. It ended up being a dirty air filter, oil in the airbox, dirty throttle bodies, fouled plugs. The airbox was cleaned, and down the manifolds to the throttle bodies, new air filter, new plugs, re-set the TPS & ECU a couple of time. Then worked fine. And since then I've only filled the engine with 1.9 litres of oil (not the 2L specified in the manual) and have not had that problem in the 60,000km since. I am careful to replace the filter & clean out the airbox each service. I have done peak hour traffic in the heat since & it's been OK, but I am still very wary in these conditions.

That being said, this MAY not be your problem, merely similar symptoms, but it is a relatively easy thing to try early on, before, say, taking out the fuel pump to check it out. You can re-set the ECU by removing the battery's negative terminal for a few minute. I believe this starts the auto learning again.

And just recently, The 2TB recently just upped & died on the way home - still had lights, starter, fuel pump, but no fuel burning - diagnosed at the side of the road to be a short in the injection services circuit - blown fuse, which blows again each time the ignition is switched on. Still hunting that short. A completely different problem, it seems.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[Murray]

I wouldn't expect a thermal shutdown to cause poor running.  It would be no running at all.

I got the impression that was the symptom, although my 1100 sport with carbs starts doing all sorts of weird stuff when it gets hot mainly higher idle, I don't use it on charity runs very much anymore. You'd hope Guzzi put one in its would only be a couple lines of code.

[Billy]

A similar thing happened to my 2014 1TB in 38 degree peak hour Sydney traffic 25km from home. Rough running, smells of unburnt fuel, surging idle, 3 cooling stops to limp home. It ended up being a dirty air filter, oil in the airbox, dirty throttle bodies, fouled plugs. The airbox was cleaned, and down the manifolds to the throttle bodies, new air filter, new plugs, re-set the TPS & ECU a couple of time. Then worked fine. And since then I've only filled the engine with 1.9 litres of oil (not the 2L specified in the manual) and have not had that problem in the 60,000km since. I am careful to replace the filter & clean out the airbox each service. I have done peak hour traffic in the heat since & it's been OK, but I am still very wary in these conditions.

That being said, this MAY not be your problem, merely similar symptoms, but it is a relatively easy thing to try early on, before, say, taking out the fuel pump to check it out. You can re-set the ECU by removing the battery's negative terminal for a few minute. I believe this starts the auto learning again.

And just recently, The 2TB recently just upped & died on the way home - still had lights, starter, fuel pump, but no fuel burning - diagnosed at the side of the road to be a short in the injection services circuit - blown fuse, which blows again each time the ignition is switched on. Still hunting that short. A completely different problem, it seems.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Ah - this sounds familiar actually.
Cool, this gives me another (intuition tells me likely) place to investigate.

[Chuck in Indiana]

blown fuse, which blows again each time the ignition is switched on. Still hunting that short. A completely different problem, it seems.

Shorts are easy to find. Solder a couple of leads on a headlight bulb and put them in the fuse holder. Start wiggling things. Light goes out? You've found it.

[Billy]

UPDATE:

Okay I found oil in the airbox.
 The air filter seems clean.

There seems to be evidence of oil in the throttle body from what I can see also.

I didn't notice any air pressure  build up in the gas tank, but it's cold and rainy today so didnt ride far.

Is it enough just to mop this oil up with a rag? Spay some throttle body cleaner in the intake  and wipe around? Or is more dismantling required.







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[Murray]

Check the oil level, way back when (well before the V7II's) there were a few odd incidents of small blocks pumping their oil out and with a relatively small capcity it didn't always end well. Also check if some well meaning service type person overfilled it for you.

[Kev m]

I'm not positive but I feel like I've heard chatter that you can damage something by spraying carb cleaner in the 1TB theories bodies, but I never bothered to investigate further.

[Arizona Wayne]

Ambient 38C =102F, which isn't that hot, really. But maybe the fuel got hotter and it turned into vapor instead of liquid in your gas tank. That would cause a vapor lock.    After the gas cooled down some it was liquid again and all was back to normal.   

[malik]

Is it enough just to mop this oil up with a rag? Spay some throttle body cleaner in the intake  and wipe around? ".....

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I'd try to avoid dismantling first - wasn't necessary for mine. Paper towels to mop up the oil, more to to wipe down the insides of the manifolds, and down to the throttle bodies. You could also try finishing off with a clean microfiber cloth dampened with carb cleaner down there - say, on the end of some kind of flexible stick/hose/wire - to ensure it's all clean. Then a new filter (the stock paper one ), new plugs, & re-set the ECU & TPS. A re-flash would probably not go astray. You have replaced the spark plug caps with NGKs haven't you? While there, check for corrosion at the ends of the HT leads. Perhaps nip off a few mills so the copper is bright, just in case.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It's a little late for me to be posting, but that little dab of oil doesn't look like any big deal to me. Certainly not enough to "kill" an engine. I'd be looking elsewhere.

[Billy]

I'd try to avoid dismantling first - wasn't necessary for mine. Paper towels to mop up the oil, more to to wipe down the insides of the manifolds, and down to the throttle bodies. You could also try finishing off with a clean microfiber cloth dampened with carb cleaner down there - say, on the end of some kind of flexible stick/hose/wire - to ensure it's all clean. Then a new filter (the stock paper one ), new plugs, & re-set the ECU & TPS. A re-flash would probably not go astray. You have replaced the spark plug caps with NGKs haven't you? While there, check for corrosion at the ends of the HT leads. Perhaps nip off a few mills so the copper is bright, just in case.

Awesome - thanks Malik. Yep - already changed the sparkplug caps, and sparkplugs actually not long ago, so I was suspicious about that being the cause.

[Billy]

It's a little late for me to be posting, but that little dab of oil doesn't look like any big deal to me. Certainly not enough to "kill" an engine. I'd be looking elsewhere.

Wise - Two things I'm thinking that I will also investigate - Pete's suggestion about the fuel not venting (and causing some vacuum effect starving the engine of fuel), and the fuel pump - I heard there's some issues with the half plastic one - some people replaced it with full metal since the plastic expands and does something unwanted (I need to research that one).

[Kev m]

Ok, I've been busy, but here are some suggestions in response to the thread:

1. It's NOT a clogged fuel filter, that wouldn't be intermittent (not a pressurized filter like this).

2. It's NOT the half plastic filter, again that's not intermittent, if it split (rare) it would simply strand you and never work again.

3. It's NOT vapor lock. A. The whole volume of your tank would never become vapor (to the point the pump wouldn't have liquid to circulate) and then return to liquid later. B. Equally sealed high pressure lines and high pressure pump aren't going to allow vapor lock. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a verified case of vapor lock on an EFI motor.

4. It could have been an electronic intermittent fault caused by heat. The hair dryer suggestion is not bad. The ECM is built into the side of the throttle body.

5. But mostly, listen to and check Pete's suggestions and go from there.

[Billy]

Ok, I've been busy, but here are some suggestions in response to the thread:

1. It's NOT a clogged for filter, that wouldn't be intermittent (not a pressurized filter like this).

2. It's NOT the half plastic filter, again that not intermittent, if it split (rare) it would simply strand you and never work again.

3. It's NOT vapor lock. A. The whole volume of your tank would never become vapor (to the point the pump wouldn't have liquid to circulate) and then return to liquid later. Equally sealed high pressure lines aren't going to allow vapor lock. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a verified case of vapor lock on an EFI motor.

4. It could have been an electronic intermittent fault caused by heat. The hair dryer suggestion is not bad.

5. But mostly, listen to and check Pete's suggestions and go from there.

Awesome thanks Kev!

[Huzo]

I don't understand this stuff at all, but is there a sensor to read air intake temp, and if so, is the sensor properly placed and not where it can receive artificially hot air ?
I wondered if it's telling the ECU that there's insufficient oxygen then would it trim or out the fuel supply to a leaner setting ?
Is that utter fantasy ?

[beetle]

Is that utter fantasy ?

Yes.

[fossil]

I had this phenomenon at my Mercedes. It was the Lambda probe, going faulty in a very small temperature window.