Rideapart on MG's Future - and On Rubbish Models

[twowheeladdict]

Here's another perspective.  I am the customer Moto Guzzi is losing.  I'm not brand loyal.  I buy the bike that tickles my fancy.  Started off on Japanese sport bikes, moved to BMW's of all flavors for twenty years, and went to Moto Guzzi about 10 years ago.  I've had a Norge, Stelvio, V7, and a Griso.  All have been very reliable.  However, I'm not a mechanic.  I can cross thread spark plugs taking them out of the container.  If I had Pete within 250 miles I would thank my lucky stars.  My local dealer dropped Piaggio, Moto International has been sold and is going though some changes.  I can't afford problems.  Heck, I can't find anyone to do the roller conversion for me.

So what did I do?  Looked around at who makes a fun, reliable bike with local representation, and bought a Triumph.  May well be buying another in the near future.

Between what I consider a poor assortment of bikes currently available, and very spotty dealer support, Moto Guzzi is no longer a viable choice for me.  Will they be in the future?  Sure, if they  fix what I consider the problems most relevant to me.  I feel they are deserting me, not me leaving them.  Time will tell.

..

You describe my experience with Triumph.  Fell for the trophy SE as a replacement for my concours 1400 when I saw it at a dealer an hour away.  Went back to talk about buying and he no longer had triumph because they wanted him to go the boutique route even though he carried them for a long time.  Then a corporate dealership an hour in the other direction picked them up and I bought the trophy.  Amazing motorcycle!  Then the front rotors warped.  Called dealer for warranty claim and they had a falling out with Triumph.  Nearest dealer 3 hours away.  Went down to the local Harley dealer and traded for my first Harley.

[kidsmoke]

I also agree with the point that DRW makes. For him, dealer support is a primary consideration.

Here's a perspective on THAT issue...all of the dialogue surrounding grading Moto Guzzi on its relationship with the market as it exists seems to fall into two distinct camps.

a) product (do/don't make bikes anyone wants - i think we can agree from this thread that's subjective)
b) they aren't a customer friendly business in product development/dealer support.

to point b, how can they cultivate a dealer network without a track record of bringing appealing market impacting bikes to the street?

I would again suggest to the court that the V7 stands as exhibit A that they may be far more on the ball than we're giving them credit for.

They developed a bike that, based on current sales data, appeals to the NEW bike buying public more than any model they've rolled out since....? Class? What's the last model they had with this appeal? Sport 1100? EV? I'm not qualified to state, but I struggle for a clear candidate...

So, they developed a bike to compete respectively in a segment other highly regarded brands have chosen to target, Triumph, Kawasaki, RE....and did it WITHOUT spending hundreds of thousands on developing new technology, increasing profitability, while broadening brand recognition throughout the market. I'm sorry but in any field, bringing something NEW and making an impact with no development budget is pretty remarkable. And they didn't rest on their laurels, the V7 III reportedly has several significant tangible mechanical improvements to the V7 II while not losing anyone who may have been smitten previously but held off. (Look at the Honda Civic, a rock star for what it is that I always admired, that now looks like a transformer ~vomit icon here~ )

They can make a case in certain markets that they're relevant, or moving back in that direction, while slugging it out in a marketplace that by all accounts may be shrinking? As a manufacturer, they have my respect.

I get that they seem to have laid off the engineering division, or perhaps given them other projects to work on, and I can see, for those of you want them to be pushing the envelope (Husqy single that Roper is ogling for example) this is discouraging. But it's conceivable that they are trying to develop product and market presence simultaneously. Direct those folks you know on the front side of their personal motorcycling bell curve towards the V7 and hope the romance and market grab that results underwrites the next LeMans.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Very well reasoned, Kip.. 

[SmithSwede]

I have found that when you say something philosophical in Latin, it seem more profound.   Here goes:

De gustibus non est disputandum

[oldbike54]

I have found that when you say something philosophical in Latin, it seem more profound.   Here goes:

De gustibus non est disputandum

 Yep , and there ain't no accountin' fer it either .

 <Okie speak>

 Dusty

[Kristian]

Kristian rides an 1100 Sport similar to the one he rode 20+ years ago.  That one was quite unbelievably fast with Charlie Rice having done his best to make it into a grenade  , but IIRC it never did blow up and actually kept going fast except when the rear drive oil seal popped out one time, going very fast in very hot conditions...

Nope: Charlie Rice never touched it. I bought some gorgeous head guards from him. It had Raceco cam stuff and Mikuni HSR42s. The Lindemann Engineering-revised suspension made the big guy dance at the track and elsewhere.

The tranny output shaft seal let go on two separate occasions far from home, drive box seal twice, too. Despite rubbish issues like these, dodgy finish issues, and carburation from hell--and other issues besides--they are true Guzzi roadburners, and once gone through (re-engineered, re-finished), totally satisfying.

Thankfully modern Guzzi build and finish quality is much better.

[Tusayan]

Nope: Charlie Rice never touched it. I bought some gorgeous head guards from him. It had Raceco cam stuff and Mikuni HSR42s.

Thats funny, my memory from 20 years ago was that Rennsport had ported the heads, not just supplied head guards.  I think this is probably from old Euromoto or Micapeak Guzzi discussions 

[JeffOlson]

I rode my Norge today. I rode from Olympia to Tigard and stopped in at the BMW dealer, where I have a deposit on an incoming RT. I’m just not as excited as I thought I would be...

My Norge purred as I rode “85” mph in the fast lane from Olympia to Vancouver. It was very nice! I began to wonder: perhaps I just need a better seat and a better windshield... Then I hit Portland traffic. What a hell hole! Nearly 100 degrees on I-5 in Portland at 9:00 am. Bumper to bumper. Foot down. Feathering the clutch for an eternity. It literally sucked all the joy out of my earlier riding.

Now I am thinking any new motorcycle would be a waste. I had been thinking of riding to work more, but traffic is such a mess in Portland. Why bother?

I think I’ll just stick to occasionally riding with my wife around the Olympic Penninsula, where the Norge is in its element. Commuting? Only in my luxo-barge with cooled seats, an ice cold drink, and automatic transmission...

[LowRyter]

..

You describe my experience with Triumph.  Fell for the trophy SE as a replacement for my concours 1400 when I saw it at a dealer an hour away.  Went back to talk about buying and he no longer had triumph because they wanted him to go the boutique route even though he carried them for a long time.  Then a corporate dealership an hour in the other direction picked them up and I bought the trophy.  Amazing motorcycle!  Then the front rotors warped.  Called dealer for warranty claim and they had a falling out with Triumph.  Nearest dealer 3 hours away.  Went down to the local Harley dealer and traded for my first Harley.

curious about your Trophy.  what model year and how many miles until the rotors went?

[DaSwami]

One thing lost in this debate is that I can't even stand looking at the SV650.  You could tell me it would go 100000 miles between valve adjustments and I still wouldn't buy it.  In my eyes, it's one ugly and boring bike.

[Tusayan]

Great motorcycles, excellent engineering, low maintenance hours, reasonably pretty.



delete feedly account

[LowRyter]

Great motorcycles, excellent engineering, low maintenance hours, reasonably pretty.



delete feedly account

great motorcycle. Classic looks. 

plus 90 degree V like Duc or Guzzi. 

and none of the maintenance headaches. 

[Guzzistajohn]

Rubbish models???? WHAT???? did Guzzi make a bike after 1983???

[Kristian]

Great motorcycles, excellent engineering, low maintenance hours, reasonably pretty.



delete feedly account

A *proper* motorcycle, genius engineering and design. Super fun, too, and sound like a nasty old-school Ducati.

Who were you on Micapeak?

[fossil]

One thing lost in this debate is that I can't even stand looking at the SV650.  You could tell me it would go 100000 miles between valve adjustments and I still wouldn't buy it.  In my eyes, it's one ugly and boring bike.

This is what I wanted to express with my Golf / Miata - comparison.

[Tusayan]

I took a look at the SV 650. A nice little bike. But: do you compare a Golf TDI with a Miata?

As somebody who moved from primarily European cars to primarily Mazdas (four of them so far) starting in around 2004, two currently including a Miata that is my wifes primary ride, its not hard to answer that question.  Yes, I do.   Among other attributes the Mazdas are today better looking.

Re TDI specifically I will never own a diesel from any manufacturer and have moved away from turbos more generally.

[Kev m]

As somebody who moved from primarily European cars to primarily Mazdas (four of them so far) starting in around 2004, including a Miata that is my wifes primary ride, its not hard to answer that question.  Yes, I do.   Among other attributes the Mazdas are today better looking.

But I'd still take a Subaru, Focus RS, or a BMW over a Mazda.

and ironically in this case, I'd take a V7 variant over a Suzuki SV, not that it matters, because I literally wouldn't buy the Suzuki.

BUT if I would consider the Suzuki, I'd buy an Air-Cooled Ducati instead - why? Because I love the bike mechanically where the SV would leave me cold. Sometimes and appliance is just an appliance, but I don't give a shit about appliances, I want to use tools that I connect with, not that are just adequate and efficient. I want something more.

[mjptexas]

I can see how DRW feels as he does, I hope the dealership situation changes for him.

Having access to a good shop is critical to guys like him, and me.  I have been lucky in the sense that my Guzzi have needed very little extra attention, but when they did, living in Chicagoland, I have had access to wonderfully talented folks!

Yep.  I'm 20 minutes from AF1, so I don't worry a lot about getting something fixed locally.  I do fret a bit on the road at times. 

It would be interesting, given the sparse population of Guzzi dealers in the U.S., to see a map showing the location of competent Guzzi repair shops or mechanics.  I know they wouldn't have dealer support, but at least you could get your bike fixed.  Given that selected mega dealers have robust on-line parts departments you should be able to get parts shipped to about anywhere in the country in a matter of days.  Would seem this is something the Guzzi community would want to support.

With regard to the current offering, I think may be repeating myself, but only the Cali touring and the Eldorado pose any interest for me.  Having said that, I do believe Guzzi has raised the fit and finish of all their current offerings to a new standard.  I don't think there is another manufacturer that surpasses them in this area.

[Tusayan]

BUT if I would consider the Suzuki, I'd buy an Air-Cooled Ducati instead - why? Because I love the bike mechanically where the SV would leave me cold.

The SV is different than air cooled Ducatis (I have two), similar but different, and complementary to them.  It's efficient but about as powerful as an original 900 Monster, and not appliance like.  The Suzuki is smaller, lighter and more refined but it's still a v-twin.

[Kev m]

The SV is different than air cooled Ducatis (I have two), similar but different, and complementary to them.  It's efficient but about as powerful as an original 900 Monster, and not appliance like.  The Suzuki is smaller, lighter and more refined but it's still a v-twin.

But I find nothing sexy about the design either aesthetically or mechanically.

Ironically Jenn loves the Duc for how it functions (how light it feels, how intuitive it is to turn, and it's overall performance even though she never pushes the envelope with it) BUT she bought it for the aesthetic design. She fell in love with Ducatis for that and as much of an enthusiast as she is about cars and bikes, I'm not exactly sure if she would know a SV650 from an FZ09 or anything else from JAPanInc. It just doesn't speak to her so it doesn't get past Step 1.

I don't begrudge those who feel differently, but I suspect I'm far from alone in this.

[Toecutter]

Nah, Kev. Not alone. Most of the modern Japanese stuff leaves me cold. Even the CB1100, which I was excited as hell to see... seems characterless.

I dunno, it's unquantifiable, and as personal as freckles... but some bikes have it, and others don't, performance and numbers be damned. I *know* the SV650 is a the ultimate standard bike of our modern times... I know this. But it doesn't mean it's fun.


A honda civic is a fantastic car, but I'd rather go a for a drive in a Westie.

[Lannis]

Nah, Kev. Not alone. Most of the modern Japanese stuff leaves me cold. Even the CB1100, which I was excited as hell to see... seems characterless.

In a sense that's true, but I've got another method of assessing "character" in a bike ... That's when I'm on a tour, and I'm a long way from home, and the weather is foul, and the bike hasn't been "maintained" for a few thousand miles because I've been away on it, and I really hope it will get me home without any drama ....

And it does!   It stays planted on the pavement even when it's wet or bumpy, and the engine starts every time, idles ever time, and keeps running in a steady hum or thump or whine (depending on what kind of motor) without missing a beat.

Any bike that will do that for me has "character" enough for me!!   

Lannis

[Toecutter]

Oh, hell... I don't define "character" as "a pain in the ass". Not even a little bit. Character to me is just that visceral, emotional connection with a bike, the feeling that I would recognize THIS bike over any other, were you to put me on it, blindfolded in the dark.

Character can come with time and ownership and familiarity. But some bikes, it seems to come a lot faster. Seems, to me... to take an awful lot longer in a mass produced bike, that's all. Just my $0.02. Worth what you paid for it.

[LowRyter]

Nah, Kev. Not alone. Most of the modern Japanese stuff leaves me cold. Even the CB1100, which I was excited as hell to see... seems characterless.

I dunno, it's unquantifiable, and as personal as freckles... but some bikes have it, and others don't, performance and numbers be damned. I *know* the SV650 is a the ultimate standard bike of our modern times... I know this. But it doesn't mean it's fun.


A honda civic is a fantastic car, but I'd rather go a for a drive in a Westie.

Modern?  The SV/DL has been in production since 1999.  It's been club racing since 1999.  it's cheap, reliable and fun.

It's a modern classic.  The only drawback is that most are still on road and not collectable like an Italian bike that's been the barn for years due to mechanical malady.  Nothing against a Guzzi but you won't catch an SV with any small block, perhaps not on my Greenie. 

After maintaining my Guzzis over the last 10 years, a little bit boring sounds pretty good.

To each his own, but I don't understand why anyone needs to trash a great bike just because it ain't your cup of tea.

[Tkelly]

If rational thinking was the only issue I would ride Hondas instead of Guzzis for the last 39 years.But there are other factors: friendly people who are happy to chat when met on the roadand at events,the brand is flat out cool,and affordableand the bikes are solid and fun to ride.

[Kev m]

If rational thinking was the only issue I would ride Hondas instead of Guzzis for the last 39 years.But there are other factors: friendly people who are happy to chat when met on the roadand at events,the brand is flat out cool,and affordableand the bikes are solid and fun to ride.

^^^ This - and as Toe said, it's personal.

No it doesn't mean a bike is a PIA or won't get you home.

But Lannis, JUST the fact that it WILL get me home, that alone doesn't give it character TO ME.

I've sold most of the BMWs I've owned because they LACKED character TO ME.

I guess it helps to define Character in a motorvehicle.

I define it is as having one or more mechanical or aesthetic traits which resonate with the owner/rider/driver.

For ME - it's both mechanical and aesthetic.

I want a combination of things that appeal to me, that are easy to maintain, that perform with my desired parameters. I don't need or even WANT it to be super fast. I prefer some comfort. I don't want it to be super smooth/too bland and I prefer big torque to peaky hp. Some vibration is fine because it helps me feel in touch with the motor, but I prefer low frequency base vibration to high frequency buzzing. I also don't want the suspension to be too perfect to the point where it completely isolates me from the experience of the road. Enough to absorb the big ones but always feel like I have some sense of the pavement.

Anything that is too "perfect" starts to feel like an appliance like my Keurig (press the button and walk away, come back in a little bit and coffee is waiting). I don't want a bike that feels like it doesn't need me. I don't want a bike that isolates me completely from the experience. I want something that is begging for personification.

YMMV

[Lannis]

Character can come with time and ownership and familiarity. But some bikes, it seems to come a lot faster.

I find that to be DEFINITELY true in my own experience.   I had a GT750, though, that I loved the minute I got on it .... still can't figure it out.   I've never been an outboard motor buff.

Lannis

[Toecutter]

To each his own, but I don't understand why anyone needs to trash a great bike just because it ain't your cup of tea.

I don't trash bikes, and I'd challenge you to find a post where I have. It's not my thing. I'd be a fool to say that the SV650 isn't a "good" bike, it absolutely is. I've said several times that is THE modern standard. But it's not for me, for the same reasons the modern Triumph Bonnie isn't for me... they're *great* bikes that do everything well. But I have ZERO emotional connection to them... they leave me feeling "fine". They go, they stop, they do it all so very well... but I personally don't find them as fun as I want them to be.

But trashing bikes? Nope. I wave the warbanner when it comes to "bikes are personal".

[Lannis]

But Lannis, JUST the fact that it WILL get me home, that alone doesn't give it character TO ME.

I've sold most of the BMWs I've owned because they LACKED character TO ME.

I guess it helps to define Character in a motorvehicle.

I define it is as having one or more mechanical or aesthetic traits which resonate with the owner/rider/driver.

For ME - it's both mechanical and aesthetic.

I want a combination of things that appeal to me, that are easy to maintain, that perform with my desired parameters. I don't need or even WANT it to be super fast. I prefer some comfort. I don't want it to be super smooth/too bland and I prefer big torque to peaky hp. Some vibration is fine because it helps me feel in touch with the motor, but I prefer low frequency base vibration to high frequency buzzing. I also don't want the suspension to be too perfect to the point where it completely isolates me from the experience of the road. Enough to absorb the big ones but always feel like I have some sense of the pavement.

Anything that is too "perfect" starts to feel like an appliance like my Keurig (press the button and walk away, come back in a little bit and coffee is waiting). I don't want a bike that feels like it doesn't need me. I don't want a bike that isolates me completely from the experience. I want something that is begging for personification.

YMMV

I'm probably operating that same way even though I don't realize it.   ON the one hand, the big Triumph I bought last was my 35th bike.    ALL of them except the GT750 and the Triumph Triple have been singles or twins, all of them.   

So character must have a "thump" component to it in my mind.    Twelve of my bikes have been Harley Davidson or British (BSA, Triumph, Norton) twins.    Or a "ring ding" component - fifteen of them were two-stroke twins and singles.   Six Moto Guzzis.

There's some "character" commonality there.   On the other hand, if it didn't bring me home, it didn't get back into the shed ... !

Lannis

[Sheepdog]

The entire “character” question has little to do with one’s bike and everything to do with the rider. We like what makes us feel good about ourselves. Certain choices help us to emulate folks we admire and be the person we wish others to see. Does anybody really think that George Patton needed a pair of Colt S.A. Army revolvers and jodhpurs to effectively command the Seventh Army? Take image out of the equation and there would probably be a much smaller collection of motorcycles to choose from in this world...