THIS has to stop!

[Tom H]

Maybe it all comes down to common courtesy.

Do any of you remember pull out lanes or turn outs. I used to go up a mountain road, it had turn outs and the like. My old truck was not the fastest going up the hill. When I saw a few cars behind me, I pulled out to let them pass.

Cyclists should also be required to let faster vehicles pass. With that said, if the cyclists are doing the speed limit consistently, then should not have to pull over to let vehicles pass.

I could be wrong on this as far as current law, I do believe that there are laws about minimum speeds on what I call freeways. As in what is now 65-75mph multi lane highways. I do remember on highways that were two lanes each way seeing signs that told slower drivers to keep right.

I do envy you guys that live in the areas that you don't have to worry about traffic too much and can just get out and go for a relaxing ride!

YMMV!
Tom

[HDGoose]

I know to many militant bicyclist. I will give them some space. I expect them, like farm equipment, to pull over when they create a traffic jam behind them, or their group. In states where motorcyclist are not allowed to ride side by side in the same lane, how can a bicycle group do it?

I have ridden slowly in front of bicycle groups, because I was looking for an address, and they passed me on both side, in my lane. I aso see most not yielding or stopping for stop signs.

Bicyclist will allow me room to pass if you cannot keep pace with traffic. I used to ride bicycles. I now see many arrogant elitist thinking they are superior and everyone else must bow to them. I've even hit a couple over the years when they ran a stop sign. No empathy from me. One I took to court for vehicle damages, and I won.

Ride single file and we'll be fine.

I also maintain my lane, and will not brake, when I have been swarmed by stunters trying to take over the road to do wheelies and crap.

[TimmyTheHog]

Personally, I will always try to give enough space to the bicycle riders, at least 3'~4'.

When passing, I do it with a mindful speed AKA not zooming past them 50MPH, but rather 30 or lower if needs to be. At the same time, NOT impeding the upcoming traffic which I have seen MANY cars on the road do that, and causes accidents...I see at least once a week on my way to work.

I mean seriously, WHY?!?! Would it kill the drivers to SLOW DOWN instead of ZOOMING at LIGHTSPEED by hogging up the upcoming traffic?!?!?!?!?!

That being said, there are also a lot of the bicycle riders who ride in the middle of the road EXPECTING EVERYONE ELSE to let them pass...that and the stop signs/4-way-stops do not apply to them somehow...

Currently up in Vancouver, BC, bicycles are NOT allowed to be on the paved part of the road beside some allowed road shoulders and/or designated bike lane (painted or blocked off).

Now, for the subject of the bike lane, I like and hate the lanes at the same time. I understand the reasons behind having them and the incentives to have more people biking for shorter distance instead of driving so to ease up the congestion as the cars typically take up a lot more room. Here are way too many people will drive here for even a 3 KM distance ALL JUST BECAUSE!...

However, I do hate them for two simple reasons:

1. current bike lanes are created by taking up the space where EXISTING TRAFFIC is already horrible up to the wazu. I do NOT understand why a crap load of those bike lanes are implemented on a MAJOR THRU DOWN PROVINCIAL CITY HIGHWAY. As a lot of us drive to town for work as we live further, (this all ties into the housing crisis but that is another topic for another day), we are now competing spaces with the bicycle riders.

2. If you are going to use the PAVED ROAD that is being paid by the local property taxes & insurances of those who drives & ride, why should the bicycle riders get the free pass.? I know this point is quite a touchy subject but I PERSONALLY BELIEVE, if you are going to USE the road, you will need to PAY for the road...doesn't matter it is ICE, bicycles, or any other way of transportation.


Anyway, I will end my rant...

[Toecutter]

If you are going to use the PAVED ROAD that is being paid by the local property taxes & insurances of those who drives & ride, why should the bicycle riders get the free pass.? I know this point is quite a touchy subject but I PERSONALLY BELIEVE, if you are going to USE the road, you will need to PAY for the road...doesn't matter it is ICE, bicycles, or any other way of transportation.

So, if we go to a restaurant... and I have fries and a coke, and the three folks I'm with order appetizers, prime rib and dessert... do we split the cheque four ways? or do we each pay our part?


How much damage does a bicycle to roadways? How much do they rack up in repair costs? How much money do they *save* in repair costs per cyclist, compared to cars? How much should they pay in your estimation? What about those pesky pedestrians... crossing the roads, and costing money in crosswalk painting and walk lights? Should they pay too? We build sidewalks for pedestrians, and that money comes out of general tax revenue, we build roads, and the money comes out of general tax revenue. Fuel has taxes added... which goes into general tax revenue, it's a tax on the luxury of driving. You've got people trying to save some money, stress and get some exercise, while lessening impact on the environment, and the best some can come up with is "they need to pay too". But for what? Honestly… for what?  What is that they need to pay for?

And again... if they do pay, is that going to miraculously make people patient? Insurance? Insurance doesn't pay for roads. Insurance goes into the pockets of insurance companies. You mention property taxes? If you live in a city, rent or own... you pay property taxes in some manner.  Taxes on gasoline, up here are general tax revenue... buying gas doesn't make you have "more right" to the road.

[TimmyTheHog]

So, if we go to a restaurant... and I have fries and a coke, and the three folks I'm with order appetizers, prime rib and dessert... do we split the cheque four ways? or do we each pay our part?

Unless it is previously agreed, you pay for what you eat. Of your own and of the part shared

How much damage does a bicycle to roadways? How much do they rack up in repair costs? How much money do they *save* in repair costs per cyclist, compared to cars? How much should they pay in your estimation? What about those pesky pedestrians... crossing the roads, and costing money in crosswalk painting and walk lights? Should they pay too? We build sidewalks for pedestrians, and that money comes out of general tax revenue, we build roads, and the money comes out of general tax revenue. Fuel has taxes added... which goes into general tax revenue, it's a tax on the luxury of driving. You've got people trying to save some money, stress and get some exercise, while lessening impact on the environment, and the best some can come up with is "they need to pay too". But for what? Honestly… for what?  What is that they need to pay for?

So, if each time your  measurements is off by 1/16”, and you have to measure it 100 times, does that 1/16” each time  matter of the whole entire length? Of course it does and it’s the same idea with road usage.

I wholeheartedly understand people trying to save money and exercise. But saying they are only using a little bit so don’t amount to much, therefore, don’t pay, that part is just wrong for the lack of better word.

 And I guess I should clarify the part about paying is toward to building the bike lane. Currently in Vancouver, the bike lanes are paid out of tax payers money both who has the choice of biking and those who don’t.

Those bike lanes were not created by choice but rather forced.

I am not suggesting the same rate of paying but rather the used portion to the whole amount. Definitely, trucks and cars will do more damage to the road ;therefore, that group gets to pay more. And bikes use less, therefore pay less...even a little bit adds up.

And by using a “little bit”, you pay “a little bit”.

I believe in fair play. You use a product, you pay for the time/benefits of that product.

And again... if they do pay, is that going to miraculously make people patient? Insurance? Insurance doesn't pay for roads. Insurance goes into the pockets of insurance companies. You mention property taxes? If you live in a city, rent or own... you pay property taxes in some manner.  Taxes on gasoline, up here are general tax revenue... buying gas doesn't make you have "more right" to the road.

Yes, you are correct as it won’t make people more patient. I truly believe our driver ed needs to be tougher and drill some common sense to all the drivers out there...way too many ignorant actions done by all parties (hogging the road in this case)

I guess I should mention BC insurance is crown Corp, therefore fulls under BC govt’s control on they want to relocate the fund (some decisions are borderline illegal yet not)..this is again a whole other topic.

Anyway, everyone got their own opinions regarding to paying....that is up for a debate and not gonna be solved here...

Anyway, I believe this is off topic regarding to driver being a hog to the road. For that, i really think driver ed needs to be more aggressive for everyone who uses the road. That also includes the bicycle riders...only until we all understand and ride/drive/cycle with a better manner mindsets, accident and hogs will always be there...

[Toecutter]

Those bike lanes were not created by choice but rather forced.

To that I would say "school taxes".

I don't have kids.

Or perhaps... "medical costs".

I don't smoke, drink excessively, I'm not overwieght, don't eat crap food, and only visit the doctor once a year on average.

I would say on both of those, I pay way more than my share.

I don't use playgrounds, still pay for them. Don't live where I can see public artworks. Still paid for them.

When you live, millions to a city... fact is, we suck up some things we don't use, and we use things other don't. It's how it has to be. You want a usage based system for everything?

[oldbike54]

 I have no idea why every single bicycle thread becomes so contentious , in my entire 64 years there have been maybe 5 incidents where a bicyclist held me up for even a few moments , makes me wonder what the big deal is .

 Oh , this thread is drifting into politics , let's do be careful . Thanks

 Dusty

[twowheeladdict]

When you live, millions to a city... fact is, we suck up some things we don't use, and we use things other don't. It's how it has to be. You want a usage based system for everything?

That would be fantastic!  But it is not a socialist concept so it would never pass in cities.

Out in the country we do have pay per use areas like state parks, fishing holes, etc.  We ay the same to register a vehicle whether it is a car, truck, motorcycle, or scooter.

[Toecutter]

I live "out in the country". I grew up as rural as rural gets, and I'd bet a burger and a beer that it was more rural than most on this board have ever seen... but I spent many years living in the city, too. Let's not get into silly talk of socialism, shall we, lest we begin to talk about gov't grants and tax cuts for farmers, or reduced insurance rates for rural drivers and their old farm trucks, or burning dyed diesel in those same trucks.

So, nah. I don't sit back and listen to people whine about "they use it, they should pay"... everyone has someone else pay for something they use in some way, everyone.

[Kev m]

I have no idea why every single bicycle thread becomes so contentious , in my entire 64 years there have been maybe 5 incidents where a bicyclist held me up for even a few moments , makes me wonder what the big deal is .

I think it really depends on where you live.

Anywhere that is more urban, with more crowded and/or narrow roads being more likely to cause issues.

In PA it was a weekly occurrence to be held up, often multiple times in a single drive or day.

In NJ I'm in the Pinelands and most of my driving and riding involve less traffic, wider roads (many of our roads have bike lanes too) and it's a much less common occurrence.

Couple this with a somewhat belligerent/aggressive culture that is being promulgated by some bicyclists and you have the seeds of a contentious conflict.

I'll liken it to some of the brand bashing the happens here. A few bad apples on both sides helps foster the divide.

[rodekyll]

So, if we go to a restaurant... and I have fries and a coke, and the three folks I'm with order appetizers, prime rib and dessert... do we split the cheque four ways? or do we each pay our part?


How much damage does a bicycle to roadways? How much do they rack up in repair costs? How much money do they *save* in repair costs per cyclist, compared to cars? How much should they pay in your estimation? What about those pesky pedestrians... crossing the roads, and costing money in crosswalk painting and walk lights? Should they pay too? We build sidewalks for pedestrians, and that money comes out of general tax revenue, we build roads, and the money comes out of general tax revenue. Fuel has taxes added... which goes into general tax revenue, it's a tax on the luxury of driving. You've got people trying to save some money, stress and get some exercise, while lessening impact on the environment, and the best some can come up with is "they need to pay too". But for what? Honestly… for what?  What is that they need to pay for?

And again... if they do pay, is that going to miraculously make people patient? Insurance? Insurance doesn't pay for roads. Insurance goes into the pockets of insurance companies. You mention property taxes? If you live in a city, rent or own... you pay property taxes in some manner.  Taxes on gasoline, up here are general tax revenue... buying gas doesn't make you have "more right" to the road.

These arguments still boil down to you're special because you have a bicycle.  Everyone pays taxes.  It's what makes the system work.  Right now you enjoy the benefit of my fuel taxes because on your bike you pay none.  That seems fair to you, but you paying for Civic infrastructure like crosswalk paint and bike lanes is unacceptable.   You just want the benefits with none of the burden. This is the definition of entitlement.

[wirespokes]

I agree about it boiling down to common courtesy. A lack of concern for others. And it does tend to upset us when others force their will on us unfairly. It's similar to the upset I get when driving and someone pulls a bone-head move - it's because I can't sit down with them and explain how and why it wasn't ok - work it out. And then there's the small percentage of drivers who aren't just oblivious or in a drug daze, but are actually anti social. It's a crazy mix we have to deal with out there.

[Toecutter]

These arguments still boil down to you're special because you have a bicycle.  Everyone pays taxes.  It's what makes the system work.  Right now you enjoy the benefit of my fuel taxes because on your bike you pay none.  That seems fair to you, but you paying for Civic infrastructure like crosswalk paint and bike lanes is unacceptable.   You just want the benefits with none of the burden. This is the definition of entitlement.

You pay extra taxes to use the HOV lanes on your motorcycle?

"your fuel taxes"... aren't the only things paying for the roads.

[rodekyll]

You don't grasp the concept of social organization.  Your examples of how unfair life is to you are apples and oranges comparisons to the topic.  I can't tell if you really don't understand how society works or you simply think you're special.  Either way you're not making sense to me.  There's nothing to rationally discuss here and no productive reason to continue it.  I'm out.

[Toecutter]

Don't insult me, and don't pretend that my disagreement makes me intellectually inferior to you. I understand perfectly "how things work", I am asking if you feel the same about all those other "entitlements" that YOU enjoy are subject to the same amount of criticism as bicycle lanes.

[oldbike54]

 PAY ATTENTION HERE FELLAS .

 Maybe this thread has run its course , seems it has devolved into nothing more than a debate about who knows what . Mentioned earlier to lighten up , let's take a deep breath and back this down . Seriously .

 Dusty

[Lannis]

Couple this with a somewhat belligerent/aggressive culture that is being promulgated by some bicyclists and you have the seeds of a contentious conflict.

I hadn't really thought about that until now, but that's probably true.   

Back when I were young and fit, I put 6,000 miles a year on a bicycle, riding in the Atlanta area with the Southern Bicycle League.    Things were way different back then - cars weren't as aggressive, bicyclists weren't as belligerent.

I'm sensitive to bicyclists on the road.   I don't like to see a group of bicyclists blocking a lane all the way across, but neither do I wait behind a single bicyclist like he was a car and then wait for a gap you could drive an airplane through, and swing all the way out to the left-hand ditch to pass, blowing the horn.   I pull over to give them a couple feet and go on by.

But even with that, the last two people who shot me a middle finger were bicyclists on the road.   Seems a dangerous thing to do, but that's what they do today.

Lannis

[Kev m]

I hadn't really thought about that until now, but that's probably true.   

Back when I were young and fit, I put 6,000 miles a year on a bicycle, riding in the Atlanta area with the Southern Bicycle League.    Things were way different back then - cars weren't as aggressive, bicyclists weren't as belligerent.

I'm sensitive to bicyclists on the road.   I don't like to see a group of bicyclists blocking a lane all the way across, but neither do I wait behind a single bicyclist like he was a car and then wait for a gap you could drive an airplane through, and swing all the way out to the left-hand ditch to pass, blowing the horn.   I pull over to give them a couple feet and go on by.

But even with that, the last two people who shot me a middle finger were bicyclists on the road.   Seems a dangerous thing to do, but that's what they do today.

Lannis

Yeah, I'm not saying they haven't had more and more instances to build some legitimate resentment. Like us, there are moronic drivers who try to kill them from time-to-time. That's gotta add up to some bad feelings sometimes. But of course, if you go out looking for something you're more likely to find it, so it can become a self-propagating feedback loop. On both sides too... see this thread...

[dee g]

2. If you are going to use the PAVED ROAD that is being paid by the local property taxes & insurances of those who drives & ride, why should the bicycle riders get the free pass.? I know this point is quite a touchy subject but I PERSONALLY BELIEVE, if you are going to USE the road, you will need to PAY for the road...doesn't matter it is ICE, bicycles, or any other way of transportation.

 Maybe the bicyclist owns a home and pays local property taxes?  Or maybe the bicyclist is a visitor to town paying $175+ a night for a hotel room, and that hotel pays taxes?   My personal insurance would pay for damages to private property should I crash my bike and dent your car/mailbox/person.  My health insurance covers me if I crash my bike and need to be taken to the hospital.   My property taxes pay for schools that my kids haven ever attended, a fire dept whose services I have yet to use, and a sheriffs dept whose services I have used,  and my property taxes even pay part of my salary. 

Good to know about the bike laws in Vancouver.  I was thinking about spending a few days up there.     

[TimmyTheHog]

Good to know about the bike laws in Vancouver.  I was thinking about spending a few days up there.     

Here is a PDF from Vancouver City showing where the bike lanes are for Vancouver area :)

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/map-cycling-vancouver.pdf

Enjoy our city! It's a nutty one.

As for who pays for what...well, you know where I stand