Battle with Pothole

[BOAT]

Almost crashed on this one:Buddy riding Harley soft-tail pulls out to pass a slow-moving van on gotta-be-roughest Nova Scotia back road. Along with major frost heaves, we had seen the occasional Gunniess Book potholes, so in the dying light and tree shadows it was a BAD ROAD. I pull out 50 ft behind Buddy to pass, as well. I see him hit a pothole first, bike going vertical in a dust cloud. I can't get over because I'm beside the van, so I hit it hard, lose my seat while hanging on through a wobble or two, but I stay with the bike feeling very thankful that I survived, as well my mate.

A short while after, I notice oil (or brake fluid?) on my right boot and foot board. Couldn't do much then because we had around 4 more hours to homed getting dark. Wiped off and kept going. Didn't notice any vibration or squirrelly handling.

I've looked at the bike, a '95 Cali 1100, and it looks like the source of the oil is the right fork. I hear noise when I rock the front with the brake on, like a fork spring without oil. The adjuster (knurled round nut with arrows) has popped up about a bit (1/8")on one side so I can see what-looks-like a hex nut underneath this "cap", on the right fork. Same nut appears normal on left. Nothing appears crooked or out of line.

 The extreme hit the wheel blew the fork oil out of the seal??

I combed through Guzziology on the fork section without hitting any pay dirt. So here I am, in need again, my Guzzi Gurus. Please do help me through this one. I'm in Nova Scotia.

Questions: 1) What do I do now? 2) At very least it needs fork oil, so how to add correct amount?
3) What are the worse-case,  best-case scenarios?

Thanks.

[rodekyll]

How far to home?

It sounds like the hit did some damage.  If you can see the seal, look for a rolled lip.  You can often tuck it back into place with a playing card, credit card, or similar.  If it's just a seal, you should be able to limp home with a little pogo effect.

Does the adjuster knob turn smoothly?  Is there any "wobble" or high point to the knob as you turn it?  Compare it to the left side .  ..

I wouldn't be as worried about blowing a seal as I'd be about bending a tube or one of the innards.  If you remove the front wheel you should be able to better inspect the slider.  Check for sticktion and spin the lower to see if it binds going around the circle.  That's the best field check you can do for a bent fork.  While the wheel is off, drain the oil from the fork and replace with the measured amount for your bike (IIRC, mine is 48cc.  ymmv).  If you don't know your fork oil weight, do them both.  But be careful!  Be sure that the top cap comes off and will rethread BEFORE you dump the oil.  Go ahead -- ask how I know.

But regardless of the damage, draining and replacing the oil is about all you can do alongside the road.  It would be an uncomfortable ride, but it should not be an impossible one.

Good luck!

[malik]

Also check out the wheel bearings while you're there. And the steering head bearings. It's rare, but the wheel bearings have been known to fail occasionally & a significant bump is a likely catalyst.

[BOAT]

I did not find the exact location of the source of the oil leak, but it does not appear to be the seal, as all the oil leaked at the bottom of the slider and not up where the fork seal is. Also, there is a very slow weep-leak still happening which drips off the inside-aft corner, below the pinch bolt. I haven't yet taken off the wheel. It seems to me there must be a crack in the slider. Repairable?

Thanks for any feedback. I will check wheel bearings.

[rodekyll]

I think there's a bolt up in the axle area holding the slider to the shock stuff.  It's supposed to have a seal to keep the fluid in.  If the seal has been compromised or the bolt broke/stretched/something else related -- that could be your problem.

[BOAT]

Thank you Rodekyll. I do believe the symptoms match. I'll get into that tomorrow.

[John A]

What Rodekyll said. After you take the axel out there is an Allen head in a pocket that threads into a round slug. When you remove the Allen head, you will loose all your oil in that leg unless you have already drained it. That slug has a slot in it that locates on a pin . Just be aware to get it in that slot on reassembly. Easy peasy

[kingoffleece]

If needed, as you're in Nova Scotia, you can hit Hamlin Cycles in CT on your way home.
Jim has the parts necessary to fix your front end.

http://hamlincycles.com/

[rodekyll]

I just pulled my axle (03 EV forks, but apparently the same construction) for another reason.  The bolt is an 8mm allen head.  I'm guessing it has a 10mm shaft.  It might be a candidate for rattle gunning out, if you didn't knock it loose in the impact.  Mine is reluctant to crack loose.

An aluminum or copper banjo washer should be making the seal.  This looks like a good place to try one of those sealing washers with the rubberized center.

[BOAT]

I am into it. The allen bolt above the axle is looking like the problem. I hear the "air escaping noise" when I pump the slider. All the oil must have leaked out. Friend above wrote about "slug" on the inside needing to be lined up w/pin on re-installing said screw. Not sure how that's to be done as it is out of view. Ray Charles method?? The exploded parts diagram I have is not detailed enough to show this.
Rodekyll, good luck for me you are navigating same swamp. 

[yogidozer]

well the mystery of why the van was driving slow was solved. good no one was hurt, bikes can be fixed

[John A]

If you have the fork dissasembled you can see it if you have that slug out in your hot little hands. It may be stuck in the correct position which they sometimes do. Look way down at the bottom and if it looks true, not cocked to one side and is not loose it probly is ok. Or it may have moved when you took that bottom Allen bolt out in which case it'll look cocked and will be loose in there. It just sits in its spot until you put the Allen back in there. I take a long wood dowel that holds the slug and fish it down in there, you can feel it when it engages the pin then twist the dowel to disengage it.

[Wayne Orwig]

I am into it. The allen bolt above the axle is looking like the problem. I hear the "air escaping noise" when I pump the slider. All the oil must have leaked out. Friend above wrote about "slug" on the inside needing to be lined up w/pin on re-installing said screw. Not sure how that's to be done as it is out of view. Ray Charles method?? The exploded parts diagram I have is not detailed enough to show this.

The 1995 Cali uses a cartridge shock. The fork oil that you see is just there for lube. There is a separate sealed damper inside.
The cartridge rests in a (I believe) plastic cup. The cartridge is 'keyed' to fit into notches in the cup so the cartridge doesn't turn. The cup is keyed so that the drain screw fits into a notch in the cup. Basically, it keeps it from spinning when you tighten the big allen screw in the bottom. If it is not lined up, then the drain screw will screw into the plastic and damage it. If the drain screw is in place when you assemble it, it should line up and  fall into place easily. Since you are not disassembling it, it should still be properly lined up.

[BOAT]

The big allen screw at the bottom came out nicely. The "crush washer" is aluminum, not copper as it should be. It was distorted and maybe the source of the leak. I'll replace it with copper.
One problem is that the hex bolt at the top of the fork tube just below the adjuster, unscrews a couple of turns then stops with stubborn resistance. I understand it should come all the way out to pull up the inner assembly to add oil. I hate to apply more force. Could this be a sign of damage to the inner assembly?

[rodekyll]

I've lost some of the continuity here . . .

I think you're describing a fork with adjustable damping (post #1).  This last post suggests you're trying to remove the same hex nut you reference in post #1 as being under the adjuster knob.  If so, this is not what you remove to deal with oil.  You remove the entire cap. 

Unload the front end (raise it up) before trying to undo the cap (36mm hex? not sure on a '95) or 10 the cap will be very difficult to unscrew and 2) it will knock out a tooth if it violently disengages with the bottom unanchored).

Now load the front end (take it off the jack some) and it will rise controllably for you to spill oil all over everything as you try to wedge it between the cap and the tube (wedging a liquid is always tricky).  I use a big "irrigation" syringe and squirt in the measured amount.  Thick oil takes a while.

Unload the front end again to tighten the cap.

With the old Tonti forks you had a drain plug near the axle bore.  Newer tonti's have the casting but not the threaded hole or plug.  I don't know when the changeover was.  While the fork lower is off is a perfect time to drill and tap that casting and add a zirc fitting (available in the hardware bins at your ACE hdwre store).  Don't use a taper-thread zirc. The fitting can be removed for draining oil.  It can be used with a standard grease gun and the measured amount of fluid to replace fluid, dripplessly. 

I knew a guy who had me hold his beer once while he also drilled for a "sight glass" in the forks.  He added the measured amount, dipsticked the level with a welding rod, and drilled, tapped, and plugged the fork leg at the full mark.  Now he just pumps in the oil with the grease gun till it shows at the hole.  Since the beer was gone, I didn't hang around to find out how it worked for him, and I have not done that sight glass trick to mine.  It's an unsubstantiated mod.  The zirc trick works pretty good though.

If I'm on the wrong track, nevermind.   

[80CX100]

I just pulled my axle (03 EV forks, but apparently the same construction) for another reason.  The bolt is an 8mm allen head.  I'm guessing it has a 10mm shaft.  It might be a candidate for rattle gunning out, if you didn't knock it loose in the impact.  Mine is reluctant to crack loose.

An aluminum or copper banjo washer should be making the seal.  This looks like a good place to try one of those sealing washers with the rubberized center.

     RK is right on the money with those sealing washers.

     I had been battling a slow but persistent leak of fork oil from the allen bolt securing the bottom of the dampers on my '80 Tonti fram CX100. When I recently did the front end I used 10 mm Dowty washers (available from local hydraulic shops, fyi) on reassembly.

     My forks seem to be holding oil tight,,, fwiw ymmv,,, lot's of other leaks elsewhere though,,,lol.

     Wishing you good luck with your repair & safe travels home.

     Kelly

[Wayne Orwig]

One problem is that the hex bolt at the top of the fork tube just below the adjuster, unscrews a couple of turns then stops with stubborn resistance. I understand it should come all the way out to pull up the inner assembly to add oil. I hate to apply more force. Could this be a sign of damage to the inner assembly?

As RK mentioned, you are trying the LARGE nut with the (rounded edges), right?

[BOAT]

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/bow.gif

This new bit of info should make quite a difference, as I was working the wrong nut. Two things stand in my way 1) I'll have to find such a large wrench 2) I need to get the correct copper washer on the bottom base bolt. The one that came off it was aluminum, chewed up around the inside edge, and clearly the source of the leak. I went all around Bridgewater, NS to find such a washer, but no luck so far. The Honda shop tech gave me a Guzzi source in Toronto and there's Harper's so might as well get the right washer on there, and a second one as I'll be looking at the other side.

Thanks again, RK, Wayne and all you Guzzi brothers. It's not only riding a fine motorcycle but the network makes me feel not so on-myown out here.

[rodekyll]

You're welcome, BOAT.

Ask for banjo bolt sealing washers.  I believe they are the same size as the brakes banjos -- 10mm -- but check to be sure.  I got a pack of 25 from a Suzuki dealer the other day for about $8.00.

[BOAT]

More damage than I hoped for (but I didn't wreck).
I have taken apart the damaged (right) fork assy. Turns out the aluminum base block, which threads into the bottom end of the steel tube (and houses a piston & spring) and which fixes the bottom end of spring assy (with the base bolt above the axle), parted when threads stripped out. The ride back thoroughly mashed the plastic "drift" or "pad", also located at bottom of slider.

Curtis Harper tells me I need to buy the whole compression assy.(part # 29525360), as the aluminum base block and piston are not sold separately. That's hundreds of the hard earned.http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/weiner.gif

[malik]

Ouch!

[Curtis Harper]

More damage than I hoped for (but I didn't wreck).
I have taken apart the damaged (right) fork assy. Turns out the aluminum base block, which threads into the bottom end of the steel tube (and houses a piston & spring) and which fixes the bottom end of spring assy (with the base bolt above the axle), parted when threads stripped out. The ride back thoroughly mashed the plastic "drift" or "pad", also located at bottom of slider.

Curtis Harper tells me I need to buy the whole compression assy.(part # 29525360), as the aluminum base block and piston are not sold separately. That's hundreds of the hard earned.http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/weiner.gif

Don't forget to tell them how Curtis Harper came thru with a source for two new dampers for a great price of $349 for the pair.

[malik]

Very nice, Curtis. With a renewed front end, you'll think it's a different bike.

[BOAT]

Yes, it does seem like the $349 for the new fork assys. is a good way to go. I often try to spend less to do a fix, but end up throwing much more at it to do it right and Curtis is certainly helping me with that. This way I won't have to worry about future problems with the left side.
 My big surprise in all this was that a certain part which you would think to be available is offered only as part of a much more expensive unit, most of which you don't need. In this case I must buy not only the whole assy. but for both sides, too. But when your bike is 23 years old you gotta be happy just to find the parts.