Author Topic: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?  (Read 36585 times)

Offline Randown

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2017, 10:11:40 AM »
Ok, I'm always willing to learn.

I've done some reading over the years on oils, and on differences between synthetics and conventional oils and how they do it don't break-down.

With regards to viscosity though I still can't seem to get it straight. Maybe I need to go back to Bobstheoilguy and read some stickies again.

I suspect the majority of the public is like me and doesn't understand viscosities correctly either.

The oversimplification we're told is that the first # (W) represents how well it will flow cold, and the second number is how well it protects hot.

Is that too simplified? Is there a better way to understand it?

And if that's remotely accurate, how would a 10-40 ever protect better than a 10-60?

They both flow the same a lower temps, and the 40 is never "thicker" at higher temps right?

I think there's a reason we are starting to see fewer of those ambient temperature oil charts being included in OEM materials, especially if they spec synthetic oil in the first place.

But I'm willing to learn.

Thoughts?

First number is vis @ 0 degrees C, second number is vis @ 100 degrees C. For us 'mericans used to F - think H2O freezing & boiling points (at standard atmospheric pressure).

At EQUAL temperature above 0C, 10W40 is going to be thinner than an 10W60 - no confusion there.

BUT

In an air cooled motor absent thermostats (or even with an oil thermostat) where the ambient temperature largely dictates the temperature of the oil a 10W40 in a mild climate can be THICKER (higher vis) than a 10W60 operated in a hot climate. Why? Because the oil doesn't get nearly as hot. It's temperature that dictates how thin or thick an oil is at any time as well as its inherent viscosity properties (rating).

Using a 0W20 in an engine that specifies 20W50 WOULD be the better choice if you're operating it in a low ambient temperature AND the oil temperature never rises above its corresponding viscosity that is equal to the RECOMMENDED grades viscosity you'd normally see on a warm/hot day.

Generally, you can go lower on the "W" number no problem, no matter what the expected operating temps are. So, if you have an old motor that 20W50 was spec'd for you can use 10W50 or 0W50 no problem without looking at oil temps.

Mineral vs synthetic aside, if someone wanted to use a 0W40 10W40 or 10W50 in the winter in lieu of a 10W60 it's a fairly safe bet. If the oil temperature doesn't get nearly as hot as summer then the temperature difference can dwarf the rated grade difference. Knowing your operating oil temps that you typically see during summer & winter AND verifying using a vis chart that whatever lube you propose to run won't thin beyond your factory recommended grade (in this case 10W60) during summer temps, would add some certainty.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 10:32:25 AM by Randown »
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2017, 10:34:39 AM »
First number is vis @ 0 degrees C, second number is vis @ 100 degrees C. For us 'mericans used to F - think H2O freezing & boiling points (at standard atmospheric pressure).

At EQUAL temperature above 0C, 10W40 is going to be thinner than an 10W60 - no confusion there.

BUT

In an air cooled motor absent thermostats (or even with an oil thermostat) where the ambient temperature largely dictates the temperature of the oil a 10W40 in a mild climate can be THICKER (higher vis) than a 10W60 operated in a hot climate. Why? Because the oil doesn't get nearly as hot. It's temperature that dictates how thin or thick an oil is at any time as well as its inherent viscosity properties (rating).

Using a 0W20 in an engine that specifies 20W50 WOULD be the better choice if you're operating it in a low ambient temperature AND the oil temperature never rises above its corresponding viscosity that is equal to the RECOMMENDED viscosity you'd normally see on a warm/hot day.

Generally, you can go lower on the "W" number no problem, no matter what the expected operating temps are. So, if you have an old motor that 20W50 was spec'd for you can use 10W50 or 0W50 no problem without looking at oil temps.

Mineral vs synthetic aside, if someone wanted to use a 0W40 10W40 or 10W50 in the winter in lieu of a 10W60 it's a fairly safe bet. If the oil temperature doesn't get nearly as hot as summer then the temperature difference can dwarf the rated grade difference. Knowing your operating oil temps that you typically see during summer & winter AND verifying using a vis chart that whatever lube you propose to run won't thin beyond your factory recommended grade (in this case 10W60) during summer temps, would add some certainty.


Ah thanks for the reply. I read your original response too quickly and missed the key point that you were comparing the 40 and 60 at different temps (60 at summer, 40 in milder temps).

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Offline Darren Williams

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2017, 11:19:20 AM »
I wonder how hot the oil gets when it is cooling the exhaust valve area and if this is the reason Guzzi specifies the "60".  The oil in a subject Guzzi both lubricates the moving bits and cools a very hot part of the motor (ergo the dual oil pumps). Could it be that in the oil cooling passages of the exhaust valve area the temps get way hotter, even in moderate ambient air temps, than the rest of the oil while run in hot summer time temps?

I always used the 10W60 when specified. You can "pay your money and take your chances", but I have enough to worry about in my life without adding to it to save a couple of buck.
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Offline Xlratr

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2017, 01:06:20 PM »
I wonder how hot the oil gets when it is cooling the exhaust valve area and if this is the reason Guzzi specifies the "60".  The oil in a subject Guzzi both lubricates the moving bits and cools a very hot part of the motor (ergo the dual oil pumps). Could it be that in the oil cooling passages of the exhaust valve area the temps get way hotter, even in moderate ambient air temps, than the rest of the oil while run in hot summer time temps?

I think that's exactly the point. The 10-60 is specified for the  8v not because of ambient temperatures but because of the cooling requirement for some *very* hot parts. 



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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2017, 01:06:20 PM »

oldbike54

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2017, 01:37:09 PM »
 Use the weights and specs the factory calls for .

 Dusty
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 02:06:01 PM by oldbike54 »

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2017, 01:53:09 PM »
If you assemble all the reasons given -- keeping plaque off the passages, mayo abatement, bringing oil pressure up faster on startup and keeping idle pressure up better when hot, the hotter running of lean-burn engines, shearing, etc, the 10w60 makes sense in the engines that are spec'd for it.  I've never heard anyone argue that they've made the passages tinier in modern engines and the thinner oil is needed because a thicker one won't flow, though.  In fact, in the case of the hydro, the opposite is true -- there are more and larger designed oil leaks in a hydro and the thicker oil is needed to keep pressure up when hot.  My 1200 Breva engine, as I said in a previous post, has a thermostats and oil cooler.  Even with that it runs significantly hotter than my 1100s.  With 20/50 running pressure at temp is ~35#, and idle is in single digits.  With the 10/60 I run at 50+#, and typically idle at 15-20#.

Other than the cost argument I've seen nothing that suggests an engine speced for 10w60 is better off with anything else.  In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to cheap out on motor oil.

If you're serious about the performance differences in oils, you really need to get pressure and temp gauges on the engine.  The instruments tell the story.  In any case, I would not listen to folks who are recommending something out of specs "because they haven't blown up the engine yet" unless they've got solid science to back up their claims AND they are willing to stand behind their recommendations with the $$$$ to fix any damage their claims cause your engine.

$0.02

Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2017, 02:05:38 PM »
Use the weights and specs the factory calls for , we are getting some posts from people who "think" they know more than the engineers , who are you going to believe ?

 Dusty

One could do a decent master's thesis on the whys and wherefores of Oil Threads.   Why do they start?   What drives the need?   Why do people get into a fease and fervor about it?

In outlining such a thesis, I'll note the following.

1) They usually start, or have included somewhere close by, the thing of "The oil recommended for my bike isn't available at the closest Pep Boys to my house, so I have to find another kind.   What does the board recommend?"    Someone with a Moto Guzzi is disturbed because supplies and parts aren't available 3 miles from the house 18 hours a day?   Really?

2) Also included is generally "The oil recommended for my bike is really expensive, so I have to find another kind."   This IS a Guzzi thing and is very much consistent with most of the other issues we talk about, like prices of used bikes, so I understand that.

3) The biggest thing, though, is a human nature thing.   People want to be part of an "IN" group that knows things that other people don't know, and want to be seen as not just following the common herd by doing what the manual says.   That might be part of what drove us toward Guzzis in the first place.   So it's like "So you're still using AGIP 10w60?   HAW haw haw, how 20th century of you!   You haven't heard of Empire Violet 1w200?   Really, you're that far behind?   I been using it for YEARS, buy it at Dollar Tree for $1.00 a gallon."  (A nod and a wink and a finger beside the nose at this point).   "Yeah, I know what they say, but I don't trust those 'Experts', they're just trying to sell oil ....."

I don't insist on it, but it sure sounds like human nature to me ..... !   :cool:   :boxing:

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2017, 02:24:02 PM »
Seriously ,  you ever run for president ,  you have my vote :thumb:
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2017, 03:39:19 PM »
In the previous page 10w60 was mentioned in reference to BMW cars.

The Penrite that I run actually has TWO 10w60 oils, one for cars and one for bikes. I have no idea what the difference is as they both have "full zinc loading" and both are synthetic. However, I guess that there is a difference somewhere as they specify that the car oil is not designed to be used in motorcycles. It may be that the car one is friction modified and it is a blanket cover to stop problems with wet clutches. Dunno.

The B750 I know runs hot hot hot. I am pretty sure that the pistons are oil cooled; with the Heron head it would make sense. These are high heats being generated even with moderate temperatures in the atmosphere being present.. Wayne is correct, 10w60 is indeed a catch-all oil weight, and with synthetics not breaking down as easily as Dino it just makes sense to me to use what is specified (if you can get it), whatever the cost.

The Breva ran fine on a motorbike specific 10w50 when I could not source the 10w60 with no apparent ill effects, however, now that the specified one is available that is what I will use.
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2017, 03:57:42 PM »
High quality 10W60 is available to anybody who has access to the internet, and at  very reasonable  prices.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2017, 04:00:20 PM »
High quality 10W60 is available to anybody who has access to the internet, and at  very reasonable  prices.

I've mentioned that before, and had Canadian guys say "No, not up here it isn't."   Apparently they can't get a lot of stuff on line that we can.   

I haven't lived there, but that's what they say.

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2017, 04:18:24 PM »
 Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff??

                      https://fortnine.ca/en/motul-7100-ester-4t-synthetic-oil
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2017, 04:59:34 PM »
Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff??

                     

Actually I come up with it from responses made to my questions on this VERY list, wherein I say "I can get 10W60 sent to me by the case anywhere on the planet, why don't people just order it ahead of time, it's cheap and convenient ...

.... and more than one Canadian guy says "We CANNOT get it here", end of message.   

Being a trusting fellow, I take their word for it, rather than searching for a source which may or may not be available to them.   So maybe they're just not looking very hard because that $1.00 a gallon oil is SO very tempting ....

Here's one such past thread.   After that, I quit asking ...

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84661.0

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« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 05:05:54 PM by Lannis »
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Offline Tom

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2017, 06:43:41 PM »
10w60 available but not AGIP out here.  Expensive to ship.  Better to buy compatible oil.
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2017, 08:25:52 PM »
So,
Who's sending their oil to Blackstone every change for analysis?
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2017, 08:45:40 PM »
So,
Who's sending their oil to Blackstone every change for analysis?

Whoever it is, I'll bet they learned it either in the airplane or the trucking business ....

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Offline leafman60

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« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:52:38 PM by leafman60 »

Offline organfixsing

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2017, 05:09:06 AM »
Just to add my tuppence, my understanding of the situation is:-
10W-60 oil is:- The same viscocity as 10 SAE grade Dino oil at 0deg C.
                      The same viscocity as 60 SAE grade Dino oil at 100deg C.
Synthetheic oils (PAO or Ester) do not break down as much as Dino oils at high temperatures such as experienced in air/oil cooled motors.
There are several groups of oils.
                                               I don't know what groups 1 & 2 are, presumably, Dino oils.
                                               Group 3 oils are extra highly refined Dino oils which for some reason have been allowed to be called 'synthetic'  but are still Dino oils.
                                               Group 4 oils which are PAO synthetic oils and have certain properties of enabling seal swell similar to Dino oils.
                                               Group 5 oils which are an Ester. They don't have much of the seal swell properties of Dino oil. This can cause oil leaks in old motors.
There are some oils that have been popular for motorcycle use which are (I believe) actually group 3 oils, e.g. Mobil One and Castrol Full Synthetic. There is no reason why these oils would not be OK in water cooled bikes as the maximum temperatures involved are lower than in air/oil cooled bikes.
Temperatures in air/oil cooled bikes are very high and require true synthetic oils as they will withstand higher temperatures without breakdown into carbon etc.
Most Synthetic oils that are not 'group three' oils are a mixture of groups 4 & 5 to achieve the desired characteristics.
Maybe this will help rather than confuse,
Cheers
Brian  :grin:
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2017, 06:48:19 AM »
"The oil recommended for my bike isn't available at the closest Pep Boys to my house, so I have to find another kind.   What does the board recommend?"    Someone with a Moto Guzzi is disturbed because supplies and parts aren't available 3 miles from the house 18 hours a day?   Really?"

The only parts I can readily get for the bike is at the local bearing/seal shop. And the dealer doesn't have most parts in stock.
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Online Ncdan

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2017, 07:56:57 AM »
Personally I have enjoyed this conversation and have gain a great amount of knowledge on the, what I consider an important subject for guzzi owners, best oil for our bikes. If fact I have learned enough to come to this conclusion. It may not hurt my calvin to use a much less costly oil than the recommended 10-60 and the walmart 15-50 Mobil may carry her down the road 100k miles. On the other hand, is she worth the extra bucks to receive what her maker suggests and is Peace of mind knowing that I complied with the factory recommendation worth the extra effort and expense? Well, that's a question that each individual here must answer for themselves. As for me , I recon I'll head to NAPA and order 4 quarts of the best grade of 10-60 synthetic racing oil I can buy. Thanks to everyone who took of their time to post well researched responses to a complex and controversial issue such as this and for the respect that each poster displayed. Hats off to all you guys👍
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 08:42:05 AM by Ncdan »

Offline leafman60

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2017, 08:31:35 AM »
Personally I have enjoyed this conversation and have gain a great amount of knowledge on the, what I consider an important subject for guzzi owners, best oil for our bikes. If fact I have learned enough to come to this conclusion. It my not hurt my calvin to use a much less costly oil than the recommended 10-60 and the walmart 15-50 Mobil may carry her down the road 100k miles. On the other hand, is she worth the extra bucks to receive what her maker suggests and is Peace of mind knowing that I complied with the factory recommendation worth the extra effort and expense? Well, that's a question that each individual here must answer for themselves. As for me , I recon I'll head to NAPA and order 4 quarts of the best grade of 10-60 synthetic racing oil I can buy. Thanks to everyone who took of their time to post well researched responses to a complex and controversial issue such as this and for the respect that each poster displayed. Hats off to all you guys👍

Ditto

Offline leafman60

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2017, 08:33:24 AM »
However, be aware that some experts advise against "Racing Oil."  They claim such oils are formulated for short-term use on a race track and not for extended highway use between changes.

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2017, 08:37:17 AM »
Personally I have enjoyed this conversation and have gain a great amount of knowledge on the, what I consider an important subject for guzzi owners, best oil for our bikes. If fact I have learned enough to come to this conclusion. It my not hurt my calvin to use a much less costly oil than the recommended 10-60 and the walmart 15-50 Mobil may carry her down the road 100k miles. On the other hand, is she worth the extra bucks to receive what her maker suggests and is Peace of mind knowing that I complied with the factory recommendation worth the extra effort and expense? Well, that's a question that each individual here must answer for themselves. As for me , I recon I'll head to NAPA and order 4 quarts of the best grade of 10-60 synthetic racing oil I can buy. Thanks to everyone who took of their time to post well researched responses to a complex and controversial issue such as this and for the respect that each poster displayed. Hats off to all you guys👍

Cost can't be the factor here:

I use about 3L per oil change on my Griso (to get about 1/2 way up the stick), so I'll take this out to qty. 3 X 5L jugs . 
Mobil1 at Wally World is around $24/jug or $ 72.
Liqui Molly at Amazon is around $40/jug or $120.  It's a little more at NAPA: $45 and for $135 total.

So to use the specified 10W60 will cost you an extra $50-60 bucks over 25-35k miles.

 
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2017, 08:44:02 AM »
However, be aware that some experts advise against "Racing Oil."  They claim such oils are formulated for short-term use on a race track and not for extended highway use between changes.
got ya leaf, I should have clarified a recommended brand instead of RACING OIL.

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2017, 11:40:29 AM »
Cost can't be the factor here:

I use about 3L per oil change on my Griso (to get about 1/2 way up the stick), so I'll take this out to qty. 3 X 5L jugs . 
Mobil1 at Wally World is around $24/jug or $ 72.
Liqui Molly at Amazon is around $40/jug or $120.  It's a little more at NAPA: $45 and for $135 total.

So to use the specified 10W60 will cost you an extra $50-60 bucks over 25-35k miles.

 

I'm guessing an engine costs less than that, then?

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2017, 12:26:31 PM »
got ya leaf, I should have clarified a recommended brand instead of RACING OIL.

OK, now next thread - define RACING OIL.

Mobil 1 Racing4T?

Agip Racing4T - I mean that's the originally spec'd oil that started this thread no?

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oldbike54

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2017, 12:47:58 PM »
OK, now next thread - define RACING OIL.

Mobil 1 Racing4T?

Agip Racing4T - I mean that's the originally spec'd oil that started this thread no?

 The question is high detergent VS low or no detergent . Traditionally racing oils had no or very low detergents , where as street oils are high detergent .

 Dusty

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2017, 01:00:27 PM »
The question is high detergent VS low or no detergent . Traditionally racing oils had no or very low detergents , where as street oils are high detergent .

 Dusty
Without checking I suspect the term "racing oil" is being used for street oils in these and possibly other cases....
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2017, 01:06:52 PM »
Without checking I suspect the term "racing oil" is being used for street oils in these and possibly other cases....

 Very possibly . Calling it racing oil may just be a marketing ploy . It is funny , tons of money get spent during any Nascar race extolling the virtues of a brand of oil or gasoline . I know all gasoline is spec , and I bet the oil is also .

 Dusty

Offline Lee Davis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2017, 01:25:54 PM »
If Moto Guzzi specifies an oil to use, that is exactly what I feel like using. I went to AFI and ordered 16 liters of
AGIP Oil 100% Synthetic 10W/60 4T Motor Oil. Easy peasy.
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