Author Topic: Need quick response please  (Read 3424 times)

Online Ncdan

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Need quick response please
« on: June 15, 2018, 06:10:19 PM »
I just had a URGENT SERVICE warning come up on my 2015 Cal. Touring with a little red triangle idiot light on the right side of the dashboard. Seems to not be responding well so I pulled over. Whats the deal?

Offline Paul Brooking

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 06:19:12 PM »
I just had a URGENT SERVICE warning come up on my 2015 Cal. Touring with a little red triangle idiot light on the right side of the dashboard. Seems to not be responding well so I pulled over. Whats the deal?
Hi
It may just be a reminder to service.
My Stelvio service light came on when I 'ignored' the wrench symbol reminding me that my 30,000 km service was due. The light symbol came on at ~32,000 k. I had serviced the bike before 30k and had not reset the service interval.
Once I reset the interval through the screen menu the service light (and the wrench) went away




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pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 06:23:03 PM »
Hard to say but if it�s gone into a power limiting mode it�s probably related to a bad signal from the demand sensor. If any of the four tracks goes out of range it will trigger a warning.

Turn it off. Wait a couple of minutes. Turn it on and change ride mode before re-starting and see if it re-boots. Also check the obvious. Oil, loose wires etc. but I�m still thinking demand sensor or it�s connection.

Pete

pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 06:24:25 PM »
Hi
It may just be a reminder to service.
My Stelvio service light came on when I 'ignored' the wrench symbol reminding me that my 30,000 km service was due. The light symbol came on at ~32,000 k. I had serviced the bike before 30k and had not reset the service interval.
Once I reset the interval through the screen menu the service light (and the wrench) went away


Completely different EMS Paul. The Cali�s run a far more sophisticated canbus and are RBW.

Pete




« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 06:26:16 PM by pete roper »

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 06:24:25 PM »

Offline Paul Brooking

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 06:25:00 PM »

Thanks Pete


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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 07:42:31 PM »
Quote
sophisticated canbus and are RBW.

Aaaaarg. Can I just stick needles in my..... oh, never mind.  :smiley: :boozing:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline stephenm

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 08:15:46 PM »
Happened on my 2013 Touring on a tour in April. Started the bike in Gundagai to ride 200m to a service station for fuel, and the bike went into limp mode, flashing red triangle and SERVICE URGENT. Refuelled the bike. On restart, the red triangle was static, and power was normal for the ride to Cowra for the next fuel stop. On restart, the red triangle was gone. It reappeared as I rode into my garage 200km later. I hooked up Guzzidiag, found PO155 for the RBW differential signals, cleared it, checked the RBW unit for clear cable routing, all good. Issue has not recurred in the next 2000km of riding.

Stephen

Online lucian

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 08:35:30 PM »
Try pulling the 30 amp fuse and waiting 10 sec before replacing. 

Online Ncdan

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 08:46:51 PM »
Update:
Pete, you hit it on the nail head. After sitting a few minutes when I started it back the warning went off and the little red triangle lite went out. I contacted my buddy in OZ who walked me and Wife through the process of hooking up the laptops to the ECU. It threw a code PO155, which is throttle sensor code. There are no obvious reasons detectable at this time and it is running good as before.
Is there anything I can check for looseness or maybe a wire not getting a good connection, in the event it reoccurs. Thanks guys for the responses and thanks to my buddy Beetle for walking me the through the  process, AGAIN !!:)

Online Ncdan

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2018, 08:52:59 PM »
Happened on my 2013 Touring on a tour in April. Started the bike in Gundagai to ride 200m to a service station for fuel, and the bike went into limp mode, flashing red triangle and SERVICE URGENT. Refuelled the bike. On restart, the red triangle was static, and power was normal for the ride to Cowra for the next fuel stop. On restart, the red triangle was gone. It reappeared as I rode into my garage 200km later. I hooked up Guzzidiag, found PO155 for the RBW differential signals, cleared it, checked the RBW unit for clear cable routing, all good. Issue has not recurred in the next 2000km of riding.

Stephen
[/quote

Exactly Stephen, code po155 was the code mine pulled up, throttle position sensor. Everything seem to reset itself and its running fine as ever. Go figure.

Online lucian

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2018, 08:56:08 PM »
Aussies rule, nice work men :thumb:

pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2018, 10:00:10 PM »
Yeah. The Demand Sensor is a sort of four way TPS. As the throttle moves it cross checks the outputs and if they move outside the expected parameters WRT each othe it throws an error.

The reasons for the cross-check are partly to protect the manufacturer from claims that the bike “Just went berserk” and partly to make sure there are multiple fail safes so it can’t.

Pete

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2018, 11:31:33 PM »
Update:
Pete, you hit it on the nail head. After sitting a few minutes when I started it back the warning went off and the little red triangle lite went out. I contacted my buddy in OZ who walked me and Wife through the process of hooking up the laptops to the ECU. It threw a code PO155, which is throttle sensor code. There are no obvious reasons detectable at this time and it is running good as before.
Is there anything I can check for looseness or maybe a wire not getting a good connection, in the event it reoccurs. Thanks guys for the responses and thanks to my buddy Beetle for walking me the through the  process, AGAIN !!:)
I don't want to turn this into an arse kissing thread, but well done PR and Beetle.
How much freaking proof do some bastards need that these two yobbo's know what they're talking about.
I was in a conversation last night on this exact topic and it got pretty tasty, both ended up very close to a real go...!
Suggested he tell them/him, themselves if he thinks he knows better.
There has to be a lot of envious guys around the world, living a short ride from NSW and ACT, has it's upside.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:35:21 PM by Huzo »

Offline JohninVT

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2018, 03:36:30 AM »
I think Pete has done more for the brand than any other person(at large or at Guzzi) in the last ten years.  He trouble shoots bikes for owners all around the world for FREE.  He talks owners with problems off the ledge several times a week.  I absolutely would have sworn off Guzzi's completely after the dash failed on my 1200 Sport if not for him.  He reached out to me by PM, explained why it failed, told me where I could source a new one in case my warranty claim was refused(it wasn't) and calmed me down.  He does that all the damned time.  He is unfailingly honest about the design and quality control failures while simultaneously promoting Guzzi every day.  Guzzi should pay him a thousand dollars a week just for the advice he provides that otherwise would have resulted in warranty claims.  It infuriates me when idiot posters question his knowledge or commitment.  I think we should all chip in to finance his next tour in the US because dozens, if not hundreds of us, would have traded in our bikes and gone to another brand.   

Offline Paul Brooking

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2018, 03:37:35 AM »
I think Pete has done more for the brand than any other person(at large or at Guzzi) in the last ten years.  He trouble shoots bikes for owners all around the world for FREE.  He talks owners with problems off the ledge several times a week.  I absolutely would have sworn off Guzzi's completely after the dash failed on my 1200 Sport if not for him.  He reached out to me by PM, explained why it failed, told me where I could source a new one in case my warranty claim was refused(it wasn't) and calmed me down.  He does that all the damned time.  He is unfailingly honest about the design and quality control failures while simultaneously promoting Guzzi every day.  Guzzi should pay him a thousand dollars a week just for the advice he provides that otherwise would have resulted in warranty claims.  It infuriates me when idiot posters question his knowledge or commitment.  I think we should all chip in to finance his next tour in the US because dozens, if not hundreds of us, would have traded in our bikes and gone to another brand.   
Hear hear


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pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2018, 05:48:25 AM »
Well Jude and I are over in two weeks. Who do we send the bill to? :evil:

Really. If I didn’t enjoy trying to help people I wouldn’t. So far in over fifteen years on the board there have only been a couple of people who have pissed me off enough to never respond th their shit!

As I’ve said before. I’m nothing special but I do have knowledge. I think there are some people who see that as a weakness or believe that anybody who gives anything away for ‘Free’? Well it can’t be worth having.

As far as I’m concerned that’s their loss. They must live in a truly horrible, bitter and sad little world....

Online Ncdan

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2018, 06:35:45 AM »
Well Jude and I are over in two weeks. Who do we send the bill to? :evil:

Really. If I didn�t enjoy trying to help people I wouldn�t. So far in over fifteen years on the board there have only been a couple of people who have pissed me off enough to never respond th their shit!

As I�ve said before. I�m nothing special but I do have knowledge. I think there are some people who see that as a weakness or believe that anybody who gives anything away for �Free�? Well it can�t be wo
rth having.

As far as I�m concerned that�s their loss. They must live in a truly horrible, bitter and sad little world....
Pete, if you get anywhere near and don’t get in touch with me you will miss the biggest steak dinner you’ve ever had! No kidding if you get close to central NC let me know and we will put you up at our place, furnish you a 1400 tourer to ride the blue ridge mountains on and you won’t have to spend a dime. Thanks for what you and several others do here. As huzo said guys like you is all that keeps Moto Guzzi factory in business. God bless the boys down under!!!

Online Ncdan

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2018, 06:40:45 AM »
Yeah. The Demand Sensor is a sort of four way TPS. As the throttle moves it cross checks the outputs and if they move outside the expected parameters WRT each othe it throws an error.

The reasons for the cross-check are partly to protect the manufacturer from claims that the bike �Just went berserk� and partly to make sure there are multiple fail safes so it can�t.

Pete
Pete, are you saying there may be nothing going bad or wrong but maybe just a freak incident that may or may not occur again and if it continues the trend I will more than likely have to make a trip to the nearest guzzi dealer as it’s a long way to your or Marks place from my neck of the woods:)

pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2018, 06:51:33 AM »
Dan, I’m about to go to bed and i’ll Respond a bit more fully later but at the moment I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I’ll blather a bit more tomorrow, (Or when I wake up in the middle of the night. :rolleyes:) but right at the moment? No. Don’t die in a ditch over it.

Pete

pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2018, 11:25:08 PM »
In case anyone is interested I responded to Dan via PM but here's the gist of it.

*************************************

The PO155 code indicates that the ECU has detected a discrepancy between or failure of one or more tracks of the demand sensor.

The demand sensor is essentially a box with four potentiometers in it, these are basically small rheostats where a wiper moves across a coil of wire like a snail shell basically and as it does so the amount of the wire coil the electricity has to go through gets longer and the resistance increases creating a voltage drop. If you have the tank off at some point you can follow the throttle cables down to a box-like thing with a cam on top. That's the demand sensor.

Now because, being a 'Ride by wire' system there is no direct physical connection between the twist grip and the throttle plate. The ECU takes a host of data from all the sensors including the demand sensor, crunches some numbers and tells a servo motor on the throttle body to open the plate by 'x' amount. It's obviously very important that the ecu get the right information otherwise it might decide that when you're trickling along in traffic that you need to open the throttle plate wide and dump in a big load of fuel! Result? Bike roars off and smashes into the side of a minibus full of nuns and bursts into flames incinerating the bike, it's riders and the minibus containing seven members of the Sisters of Diminished Responsibility! Cue horror headlines! "Get these death traps off our roads!" And politicians getting on TV and braying! All too boring!

So to prevent this rather than there just being one rheostat there are four working together that make a kind of graph. Now the ECU *Knows* what this graph should look like and where the intersection points of the 'Lines' for want of a better description should be and as long as everything it sees matches what it can *See* in its look-up table everything will be happy and honky-dory, the bike will work properly and no nuns will be incinerated!

BUT if something happens and either one of the rheostats stops rheo-ing or it produces a signal that falls outside of the parameters known from the look-up table a tiny lightbulb goes on in the ECU's brain and it knows that something isn't right. If this happens with just one track it will throw up an urgent service warning and, from memory, will either throw it into a power limiting mode or may just hold the RPM at 3,000 which allows the bike to be ridden on the clutch but not very fast. If though it detects something wrong with more than one track it will immediately shut the engine down and, because it may happen when moving, it kindly gets the ECU to turn on the brake lights in the hope you don't get run over by the eighteen wheeler loaded with bridge parts that has been tailgating you for the last five miles!

Obviously the question you want answered is "Is it going to be a problem again?" And I'm afraid the answer to that is "Nobody knows!" Sorry! :laugh:

Chances are something caused it to have a brain fart. We have no idea what? Perhaps a unicorn farted as you were riding by? It's as good an explanation as any! Like all machines something may happen and cause a momentary hiccup and in most times and places they may cause just that, a hiccup or momentary loss of power, a flicker of a light or twitch of a needle. Because of the serious and understandable consequences of something going awry if the demand sensor goes wonky and a desire to avoid nun-burning situations though the fail-safe system is built to err on the side of being uber-conservative and that's a good thing. It does mean though it is more likely to fling up a false flag than any more gung-ho and cavalier system.

In reality I wouldn't concern myself unless it started doing it regularly or  predictably. Most likely at this point it will never do it again. If it does though then is the time to start getting into some serious gremlin-hunting.

I know there are many who are worried or at least concerned by the perceived *Complexity* of newer management systems on vehicles but really they are generally extremely reliable and safe. Many people on the board are probably driving around in their cars blissfully unaware that they are not only throttle by wire but steer by wire as well with absolutely no direct connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels of their cars! Both Mini and Mazda use this system and nobody shrieks about them!

Ride it. Enjoy it! Worry less. Ride more! :thumb:

Pete

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2018, 11:30:55 PM »

 Great explanation Pete, were the nuns blind or just pregnant? :evil:

        Paul B :boozing:
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Offline Paul Brooking

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2018, 11:43:46 PM »
Wonderful explanation
If you have a few spare moments, could you please delve into "Chaos Theory" or "Quantum Mechanics"   I'm pretty sure your diatribe would be both educational and hilarious[emoji12][emoji12]

Got to watch those mini buses full of Nuns ... they can be habit forming. [emoji41][emoji41]


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Offline luthier

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2018, 03:26:14 AM »
So I suppose it isn't a viable concept to modify the bloody thing to run on a normal cable?
While it may work reliably almost all the time it would seem it almost always doesn't work properly for some times for some people, Russian roulette style since nobody knows why it happens, or when or if it may happen again.
Wot I'm getting at is for someone like Pete or Beetle, if you had a really hard think about it, could you side track this crazy little bit of crap/ design the fix so it won't happen at all?
Because as you rightly point out a lot of vehicles use this method now but I bet not too many ever have this kind of problem, specially with the steer by wire . Seems like a Guzzi thing for which fixes have been designed by PR since he became a Guzzi mechanic. Maybe it needs the Mazda solution or sumthing?

pete roper

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2018, 04:23:59 AM »
(Sigh.) Dan, if I try to answer this here it will go 'Political' in about three nanoseconds.

I'll PM you on Cheese or somewhere....

Online reidy

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2018, 05:01:35 AM »
I have not experienced this fault on a Moto Guzzi but have experienced something similar on a different brand. The cause was a battery on the way out with a week cell. The best I could assume is as the regulator cut in the battery was not charging as it should and would cause a small voltage fluctuation. As the computer was expecting to see certain voltages and not see a big change in a matter of milliseconds it would through a fault code. How I discovered it was soon after getting the warning lights I noticed the bike was slow to crank. I had the battery tested and it showed a bad cell. I replaced the battery and the intermittent warning light problem went away.

If your battery is more than about three years old it may pay to have it tested and if it shows a low cca possibly replace it.

Steve

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2018, 07:24:22 AM »
So I suppose it isn't a viable concept to modify the bloody thing to run on a normal cable?
While it may work reliably almost all the time it would seem it almost always doesn't work properly for some times for some people, Russian roulette style since nobody knows why it happens, or when or if it may happen again.
Wot I'm getting at is for someone like Pete or Beetle, if you had a really hard think about it, could you side track this crazy little bit of crap/ design the fix so it won't happen at all?
Because as you rightly point out a lot of vehicles use this method now but I bet not too many ever have this kind of problem, specially with the steer by wire . Seems like a Guzzi thing for which fixes have been designed by PR since he became a Guzzi mechanic. Maybe it needs the Mazda solution or sumthing?
Now that’s a thought I’d be willing to look into but I’d bet good money that it’s impossible to convert to cable as everything else is controlled by the ECU which we all have figured out by now is simple the BRAIN TRUST of these modern motorcycles. The problem is in our case case with Guzzis it’s not a completely trust worthy system yet like say Honda or even HD or any other of the jap bikes. If these issues continue for no explainable reason with complicated fix’s the dealer has to do I’ll be calling the guy I sold my CalVin to and offer an even trade:)
That was a good and fair question I thought

Offline mjptexas

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2018, 07:57:20 AM »
...Turn it off. Wait a couple of minutes. Turn it on and change ride mode before re-starting and see if it re-boots. Also check the obvious. Oil, loose wires etc. but I�m still thinking demand sensor or it�s connection.

Pete

Having spent the better part of 5 different decades in the computer industry, I'm amazed that "turn it off and then turn it back on" is still step #2 in everybody's troubleshooting guide (#1 being "is it plugged in?").
Mike

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2018, 08:00:59 AM »
Having spent the better part of 5 different decades in the computer industry, I'm amazed that "turn it off and then turn it back on" is still step #2 in everybody's troubleshooting guide (#1 being "is it plugged in?").

That's probably because systems are increasing exponentially in complexity, and it becomes more and more impossible for the developers to anticipate every single combination of states that a system can get itself into.   At some point, the mix of inputs and interactions gets the system into an infinite loop or a dead-end that no one anticipated, that the system can't get itself out of, and the only solution is to re-set it to a state it can handle.   And that's generally with the on-off switch .... !

Lannis
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Offline mjptexas

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2018, 11:26:48 AM »
That's probably because systems are increasing exponentially in complexity, and it becomes more and more impossible for the developers to anticipate every single combination of states that a system can get itself into....

And sometimes developers can just be stubborn.  When I was running a compiler company I remember a protracted conversation with a senior developer regarding testing for a specific condition in a user interface.  His answer - "Why would anyone ever do that?" DOH. 
Mike

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Offline e.cleven

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Re: Need quick response please
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2018, 08:41:35 AM »
Dan, hope you don't have anymore issues with your 1400, but just to be on the safe side I would steer clear of any Catholic Churches for a while...
Hope you are enjoying the bike.

Ride Safe!

Earl
























 

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