new to me Breva starting issue ****Resolved!*****

[rdbandkab]

Hi all,
Just picked up a nice 06 Breva 1100 from a forum member...  Pretty straight forward pickup...no crashes on the way home, nor did we catch air crossing any train intersections.
Here's the issue.  The bike started and ran at the pick up location with his primary set of keys.   The PO left a voice-mail that he accidentally forgot to include the primary keys, but there was a second set of (never used) keys in the bag with the manual and extras.  No biggie.
Knowns:  Half a tank of fuel w/stabilizer, Startus Interuptus not completed, fuel filter change to the full metal not known for sure.
Anyway... I pull the bike off the trailer and try to start the big gal up...  I get nice positive cranking, but no start.  Oddly enough, a couple of times the starter cranks for a second after I release the start button.  So she's trying to start, so probably not keys or user codes?  I was sort of hoping that the secondary set of keys was the culprit (but knew better in my mind).   I'll be taking the tank off for the fuel filter change, but is there any way to tell if the filter has burst on the composit side?  (say disruption of fuel in the tank?  I forgot how small the fuel filler hole is!)  I thought maybe I could see some sort of activity in the tank while trying to crank her over.
Any suggestions are appreciated!  I'm trying to build a plan of attack for after I get out of work....and change the heating element in my sister's dryer. 
I've searched through the earlier threads on said symptoms and solutions, but thought I'd ask for latest ideas.
*Is the Breva GuzziDiag friendly?  I've used the software previously on a Stelvio...and an aprilia Capo TP to less extent.

Glad to be back!

richy

[Kev m]

Oddly enough, a couple of times the starter cranks for a second after I release the start button.

Nothing odd about that. On the B11 (and I always assumed other CARCs) you press and release the starter button and something solid state takes over cranking. It will crank itself until it starts or some timer function tells it to stop cranking.

So she's trying to start, so probably not keys or user codes?  I was sort of hoping that the secondary set of keys was the culprit (but knew better in my mind).

When you say she's trying to start, do you mean she is catching and stumbling a little or just cranking?

I guess I'm asking whether or not you are sure you have spark. If you ARE sure you have spark, then yeah I'd start barking up the fuel tree.

I'll be taking the tank off for the fuel filter change, but is there any way to tell if the filter has burst on the composit side?  (say disruption of fuel in the tank?  I forgot how small the fuel filler hole is!)  I thought maybe I could see some sort of activity in the tank while trying to crank her over.

I can't say for certain since mine never burst, but I WOULD expect you'd see some flow in the tank looking in through the filler if the filter was burst.

[rdbandkab]

She's cranking over very consistently.  BUT, she doesn't even try to fire (or catch).  I even wondered about the "tip-over" sensor.  Not sure if it would even let the bike crank though.
I'll check the "kill" switch again.  I tried to start the bike at the PO's house with the red "kill" switch depressed, but I think she just clicked when I tried to start.   I've never used the kill switches on previous bikes (always left the bikes in "run" and used the key to stop the engine).

Is the spark check to be done in the old fashioned way of pulling the plug and laying it against the head and looking for spark?

The bike had a nice comfy ride home, but I'll give her a once over to see if anything came loose..   The dash does the sweep...and I think it threw a "SERVICE" message on one of the tries.  I'll see if I can get into read any diagnostic codes.  Last night asked for the user code.  The PO hasn't set a code, so I'll try the default.

Thanks Kev!

[rdbandkab]

Upon last try (lunch),  got a red triangle idiot light after dash sweep.   Seems like eventually, I'll get the "SERVICE" message on the dash also.    Sheez.

[Kev m]

Yeah, spark check can be done old fashioned way (carefully) and I like to use a spare spark plug so the regular plug can keep the hole covered up during the test.

But it looks like it's time to check for codes yes?

[pete roper]

You don’t need the user code to check the OBD you need the service code. Does your left hand switch block have a three way mode switch and a button on the front or a toggle switch like the Norge’s and Stelvios? There were two types of switchblock requiring different service codes.

If it was running ok it would be extraordinarily unlucky for it to have lost its fuel hose just after you’d bought it. Check for spark. If no spark my guess would be phase sensor.

Pete

[rdbandkab]

Both plugs not firing would be interesting...no?

As far as codes for Diagnotics goes,  I've tried 00000, 36424, and 28315 with no luck.  Enter 36421...woohoo!  I'm in..

ECU had an "x" on 54
Dash had an "x" on 7

Dang.   Heading back to work!


Yes.  My left hand switch gear has the three position slider and the little rubber button on the opposite side.

54 = error instrument panel   (hoping I didn't lose the dashboard - everything looks active on it)  Maybe a clearing of the codes is in order this evening...
07 = oil sensor fault

I've not reset the codes.

[pete roper]

Just clear them and see if they come back. The dashboard 7 is an oil pressure fault probably a hangover from the last oil and filter change if the filter wasn’t pre-filled before installation.

As stated, check for spark.

Pete

[rdbandkab]

Will do. 
Thanks!
I'll take a look at the grounding connections while I'm at it.

[rdbandkab]

Removed the left plug and touched the threads/flats to the cylinder head whilst cranking over.  Could not see any noticeable spark. 
(have to go replace a dryer heating element now..  Arrrggg! 

Checked the ground above the starter.   Didn't remove completely, but messed about with it and then torqued it down snug.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Here's the issue.  The bike started and ran at the pick up location with his primary set of keys.   The PO left a voice-mail that he accidentally forgot to include the primary keys, but there was a second set of (never used) keys in the bag with the manual and extras.  I could see some sort of activity in the tank while trying to crank her over.
   

That sounds like the problem, the Dash doesn't accept the key as being the correct one. Get him to courier the original keys to you, i think it may go.
Theres an antenna around the key barrel that's looking for the code.
If the spare keys are chip keys you should be able set them to work as well but they need to be programmed.

[rdbandkab]

The "starting" set of keys have been "next day'd" to me.  I'm hoping that gets her running.  It just seems to be the most simple answer to the puzzle of a bike that started at 1:30pm and then didn't start at 8:00pm.
I'll wait for the keys before I start tearing anything else down.


Thanks all!

[ohiorider]

The "starting" set of keys have been "next day'd" to me.  I'm hoping that gets her running.  It just seems to be the most simple answer to the puzzle of a bike that started at 1:30pm and then didn't start at 8:00pm.
I'll wait for the keys before I start tearing anything else down.


Thanks all!

Fingers crossed that the keys are the solution.  If not, it can't be insurmountable!  Knowing how much you enjoyed your previous big block CARC bike, I know you'll get this one to work for you, too. 

They are nice machines!

Bob

[rdbandkab]

Well...  The non-start isn't result of any certain keys being used...  (I had my doubts, but hoped!)   
Interesting thing happened after trying the primary set of keys a few times.  The 4th stab at the starter resulted in a muted click and the sound of the starter trying to engage.  I scrolled through the left hand switch and saw the voltage down to 11.5.  Is it possible that the new battery isn't all it's cracked up to be?
Could a bad battery result in a decent sounding cranking but no spark? 

*unfortunately, I didn't get to throw the battery tender onto the B's battery before I headed back to work.

richy

[jlburgess]

I would be thinking fueling issue because you didn't mention that the plugs reeked of gas.  Not sure if yours is the same but on my bike you can pull an injector out with one Allen screw and see a nice mist of gas coming out while cranking.  I like to smoke a cigarette while doing this for added entertainment value! 
If it has fuel I'd be seconding the phase sensor.

[rdbandkab]

I'll try again after work and see if I notice fuel on the plugs.  From tries yesterday,  I thought I could smell fuel, and the plug I pulled out looked wet (if I remember correctly).
Too much in a hurry today.  The FEDEX guy showed up as I was getting ready to head back to work.

[pete roper]

Since you’re not getting spark I’m still thinking phase sensor.

[Zoom Zoom]

Pete, could the battery be low enough that the computer isn't sending a signal to the coils?

John Henry

[rdbandkab]

This evening:

I checked for spark under very low light conditions and still not detect any spark. I do get a whiff of fuel when I crank the bike over.

I tried cranking over with with help from another battery.  Cranks but no cigar.

When I turn the key on,  I get my neutral light, the kickstand safety light (depending on whether the stand is deployed or not) and last but not least the red triangle of death (well...hopefully not death).   If I leave the key on and stare at the dash while gently weeping for a minute or two,  I get a large SERVICE w/triangle...it will come and go. 

Under the DIAGNOSTICS screen on the dash (cycling through screens with the little rubber button facing forward on the left switchgear),  I receive a "X" on ECU number 54.  And I can't delete it away.   The oil "X" is gone.

Thanks in advance for any ideas...

richy

[pete roper]

No spark immediately makes me think phase sensor. The fact that you are getting the ‘Service’ warning but it is dropping in and out is bloody frustrating because if it isn’t showing then it won’t throw a code.

Right now I’d be throwing another phase sensor in it just for shit and giggles. Although when they go they usually just kill the bike stone dead we had a Hydro Cali in this week that would run intermittently and it turned out to be the phase sensor. If you can wait for overseas delivery you can save a few bucks by buying from the mob Antmanbee found in the UK who knock ‘em out at a realistic price.

When setting the depth I just measure the length of the old and new sensors. If they are identical, (They usually are.) I just swap the shims and o-ring off the old sensor to the new. Rarely does this not work.

Pete

[Kev m]

Pete, could the battery be low enough that the computer isn't sending a signal to the coils?

John Henry

I would expect that if the voltage was too low the first thing to fail would be the starter circuit (i.e. Interruptus).

[pete roper]

If the current draw drops the voltage below a certain point the dash shuts down the entire bike. The classic signs are hit the button and you’ll hear the solenoid throw in and then everything goes dark. After a second or two the dash boots up again and you usually get the HW # appear on the screen, then it goes through it’s sweep and everything appears honky-dory until you hit the button again. It’s designed to protect the ecu and dash from voltage spikes as the engine fires and the alternator causes a surge.

Check to see you have the correct battery as well. It should be a YTX 20 CH/BS or equivalent. Problem is the YTX 16 is dimensionally identical but can only deliver a considerably lower number of CCA’s. They are usually fine when new, in warm weather, but give them a bit of age or if it’s cold, (Especially if the battery hasn’t been put into service correctly.) and it’s a recipe for trouble. Needless to say the 16’s are often chosen because they look the same and are cheaper.

Pete

[rdbandkab]

Thanks all!

The big kicker is the no spark (on the left side anyway).  Didn't check the right, but I'd assume she'd try to start with one plug providing ignition.
I tried a jump from another battery with the same results...strong cranking, a whiff of petrol, and a low grumbling(me). 
I also wondered about a bad ecu ground?
I'll be pulling the tank to do the fuel filter shortly,  so that might be the time to try Pete's suggestion for a different phase sensor.  I found a reasonably priced example on the web..  It shows for the Breva and gives the depth specs as 30.
This:SEN8I3 / SEN 8I3
TDC Crankshaft Position / Crank / RPM / Phase Revolution sensor
3-pin connector, with an 90 degree angled head, 30mm long (see photo)
For use on Moto Guzzi bikes / GENUINE Magneti Marelli Part

Sound correct?

Thanks again!
richy

[bad Chad]

Don't trust that the depth of the old phase relay was correct.   I pulled one off my Cal to put a new gasket on, I had no clue that it was exact shimmed. I unwittingly put it back together minus a couple shims.   It ran perfectly fine for over a year.   At some point later it started having starting problems.   It would turn over but not start.    I took it in and my tech could scarcely believe it ever ran!  He diagnosed the bad shim job, and problem solved.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Here is a link to Carl Allison's Breva schematic, the phase sensor is item 51
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
You should be able to find the connector about a foot from the sensor itself, measure the resistance, should be 600-700 Ohms I think from 1 - 2 with no connection to 3,
measure it then swap the meter leads around and measure it again, should be the same both ways, they sometimes go open as they heat up.
If you were to monitor the Injection Auxiliary relay with a small lamp from the red wire to chassis you should see it turn On for a couple of seconds with the key then go Off
As the bike cranks over it should power up again turning on the pump and ignition.
I'm not sure what part Battery Voltage plays in the mix but 11.5 seems ok to me.

I think sometimes an owner will remove the sensor to fix an oil leak and wind up getting the sensor out of gap.
The way I check the gap is to remove it then put a blob of quick setting epoxy on the tip then bolt it back in and wait for the material to set
Pull it back out and measure the thickness of the epoxy.

It's not a bad idea to carry a spare sensor, if it goes it's impossible to replace.

[tris]

...
This:SEN8I3 / SEN 8I3
TDC Crankshaft Position / Crank / RPM / Phase Revolution sensor
3-pin connector, with an 90 degree angled head, 30mm long (see photo)
For use on Moto Guzzi bikes / GENUINE Magneti Marelli Part

Sound correct?

Thanks again!
richy

YEP 

Go here http://www.guzziriders.org/rpm-and-tdc-sensor_topic455.html

Try Googling "testing crank sensor" there are a couple of techniques shown to bench test them that might prove its dead before you flash the cash

[rdbandkab]

One is on the way!   Got it a decent price, so it won't hurt too much if it doesn't end up being the cause of the no start.  It'll be good to have one as a spare.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Might I suggest while you are waiting wire a small lamp to the relay, I would make it a permanent installation under the seat, once you have it there you will wonder why it wasn't installed at the factory.
See the common red wire that powers up the fuel pump, injectors and coils, wouldn't it be nice to know the state of that wire?
I would wire in a 12 V LED or roll your own with a 1K resistor and 10c LED from Radio Shack  Red wire - 1K resistor - LED long lead, LED short lead to chassis.

[Kev m]

I would wire in a 12 V LED or roll your own with a 1K resistor and 10c LED from   Radio Shack Red wire - 1K resistor - LED long lead, LED short lead to chassis.

HOLD THE PRESS...

RADIO SHACK still exists somewhere??? 

[Darren Williams]

HOLD THE PRESS...

RADIO SHACK still exists somewhere??? 

"Radio Shack" is the old legacy term for Amazon's electronic department.