Roller Tappet Conversion No longer offered as Good Will?

[drw916]

Just got back this email from Moto International.  Has anyone else been told this?


We heard back from Piaggio and unfortunately they are no longer offering the tappets as a goodwill service. 
Sorry for the disappointing news.

Don Cardiff


Service Department
Moto International
service@motointernational.com
7701 Aurora Avenue N.
Seattle, WA 98103
Parts: 206-297-3822
Service: 206-297-3827
Fax: 206-297-3828

[guzzisteve]

I would call the Regional Tech Rep for the right answer, dealers often are mis informed.  I know they stopped the Hydro.
Well folks had long enough to stop procrastinating and do it. Been known since a 2014 Bulletin.

[bpreynolds]

Yikes!  Certainly hope this is wrong.  I'm scheduled to drop the Griso off at dealer on this Friday for roller job 

[pete roper]

With recalls there is usually a ten year cut off. The flat tappet fiasco was never a recall though and I don’t know what the go is WRT this sort of ‘Technical update’. As Steve points out though it’s not as if the issue hasn’t been widely known for about six years. How long are you allowed to vascilate before doing something about it?

Over here at least the problem has generally been that dealers refused to check bikes. If they did then the damage would of been obvious and a claim could of been made. I suspect it’s much the same elsewhere. Look how hard it was for Jon Burgess to get any satisfaction. He just kept getting fobbed off.

Pete

[Dilliw]

With recalls there is usually a ten year cut off. The flat tappet fiasco was never a recall though and I don�t know what the go is WRT this sort of �Technical update�. As Steve points out though it�s not as if the issue hasn�t been widely known for about six years. How long are you allowed to vascilate before doing something about it?

Over here at least the problem has generally been that dealers refused to check bikes. If they did then the damage would of been obvious and a claim could of been made. I suspect it�s much the same elsewhere. Look how hard it was for Jon Burgess to get any satisfaction. He just kept getting fobbed off.

Pete

That's why I'm thankful for this forum, for Pete, and getting my bike to a dealer early!

It's unfortunate but there are plenty of 8v owners out there that won't have a clue on this until the grenade goes off.  Even this year we've seen a smidgen on EV's  still in need of the hydro recall and those are 2003/2004 models.

[Lannis]

That's why I'm thankful for this forum, for Pete, and getting my bike to a dealer early!

It's unfortunate but there are plenty of 8v owners out there that won't have a clue on this until the grenade goes off.  Even this year we've seen a smidgen on EV's  still in need of the hydro recall and those are 2003/2004 models.

And (you can tell by the mileage on some of these bikes), there are bikes that aren't GOING to grenade in the hands of their current owners because they don't get ridden at all.  They go for years and years and maybe get a thousand miles or two on them.

Seems strange for a Brand G bike (we almost expect it for Brand H  ), but it happens.   Then five years later it gets sold, and the new owner is stuck buying the bits to fix it, assuming they're still even available.

Like a Ducati getting sold at a $1500 discount right before a major service is done, any unmodded 8-valves are going to be about that amount cheaper in future.

Lannis

[pete roper]

Over here you can already pick up an 8V Griso for peanuts if you look around. Sport 1200 8V’s are even cheaper. The only ones that are holding firm are 8V Norge’s, (Because there are so few of them.) and big tank Stelvios that people have suddenly discovered they’ve missed the boat on.

We’re still doing enough rollerisations that I try and keep an A and a B kit on the shelf at all times along with the other bits to convert them to C and D kits if required. Nowadays most people who come to us do so because they haven’t been able to get any of the official dealer network to check their tappets or even if they do they tell them they’re OK. Then there is the seemingly endless wait for parts and no guarantee the job will be done right anyway. They aren’t happy about it but they’d rather pay and have it done right than waste time arseing about!

Pete

[bpreynolds]

Here in the States any Guzzi goes for peanuts on the dollar second hand, or even new leftovers.  Just now on Ebay here there are 2 or 3 brand new Stones with no reserve auctions starting at 5k.  I’ve said it a thousand times recently, it looks like a very tough moment for Guzzi, seemingly the worst I can recall in my 14 years or so with the brand.  So many bikes on so many floors unsold and some used ones going lower than I can remember.  I certainly picked up my ‘09 Griso for peanuts.  But I drift out from the thread here.

Mine now only has about 3400 miles on it.  Hopefully Guzzi will cover the cost of the kit, at least that’s what Enzo told me about 3 weeks ago when I scheduled to take the bike up there to him. 

Neither here nor there, but if I recall correctly Ducati never issued a warranty for their expanding tanks but did replace them for, I think, ten years following. 

[drw916]

Well, no one to blame but myself.  I could of taken it in to my local shop before they stopped selling MG.  Then, I could have taken it to Moto International, but never got around to it.

Now I guess I just pay for the whole thing.  Certainly not the worst thing that could happen in my life, and better than junking it or trying to foist it on some unsuspecting rider.

Wait, wasn't Pete looking to buy a Stelvio in the Pacific Northwest?

[Zoom Zoom]

Yikes!  Certainly hope this is wrong.  I'm scheduled to drop the Griso off at dealer on this Friday for roller job 

I would hope you claim had already been submitted and approved. You may want to check with the dealer about it.

Never the less, I have a friend who had drug his feet to the point that I feel it's his own fault now. I have been saying to him for several years that he should get this taken care of. Oh well, nothing is forever. I'm glad I got mine taken care of.

John Henry

[LowRyter]

Well, no one to blame but myself.  I could of taken it in to my local shop before they stopped selling MG.  Then, I could have taken it to Moto International, but never got around to it.

Now I guess I just pay for the whole thing.  Certainly not the worst thing that could happen in my life, and better than junking it or trying to foist it on some unsuspecting rider.

Wait, wasn't Pete looking to buy a Stelvio in the Pacific Northwest?

You're a good and level headed.

[Lannis]

  Certainly not the worst thing that could happen in my life, and better than junking it or trying to foist it on some unsuspecting rider.

Wait, wasn't Pete looking to buy a Stelvio in the Pacific Northwest?

That's the ticket!!  I'll bet you could pass it off on that unsuspecting guy and he'd never know the difference!    

[pete roper]

Look guys and gurls, all we have so far is one, unconfirmed, report. Let’s hold the shrieking and tearing of hair eh? Even though those affected would of had a lot more hair if they’d acted within a reasonable timeframe.

Pete

[bpreynolds]

Look guys and gurls, all we have so far is one, unconfirmed, report. Let�s hold the shrieking and tearing of hair eh? Even though those affected would of had a lot more hair if they�d acted within a reasonable timeframe.

Pete

 :1:
Enzo is supposed to ask for me today before I load the bike up to take to Cincy tomorrow.  Btw, maybe I missed it in this thread but anyone have an idea of the cost of the kit if paying out of pocket?

[pete roper]

Your Griso is a 2009. It will need a ‘C’ kit, the most expensive and labour intensive of the lot. If you have to do it on your own dime you can save a couple of hundred bucks by buying a B kit and the other bits that need buying to turn it into a C kit. I’ve explained this many times on many web sites, do a search for ‘Ranting’ and ‘Guzzi 8V’ and you’ll probably find what you need :D

When we do a C or D kit it costs a couple of K$AU including the kit, labour, and extras like checking the sump and replacing the dodgy spacer gasket because we’re in there. We have a LOT of experience though so our billed time will almost invariably be lower than most shops.

Pete

[hauto]

I know this question really doesn't relate to this thread tappet issue.Why does every over head cam bucket and shim(which is basically a flat tappet) not have the wear problems that Guzzi has.For that fact why does the two valve flat tappets have no wear issues.Maybe comparing apples and oranges?

[Lannis]

I know this question really doesn't relate to this thread tappet issue.Why does every over head cam bucket and shim(which is basically a flat tappet) not have the wear problems that Guzzi has.For that fact why does the two valve flat tappets have no wear issues.Maybe comparing apples and oranges?

My understanding is that the tappets on the 8V Guzzis '08 - '12 were coated with a hard-facing material known as "DLC" which was improperly manufactured during that time, causing the material to erode during running and eventually expose the unhardened tappet material beneath.

That's why it's specific to just (A) These years (B) Guzzis and (C) 8-valves.

Lannis

[tris]

My understanding is that the tappets on the 8V Guzzis '08 - '12 were coated with a hard-facing material known as "DLC" which was improperly manufactured during that time ........

That is interesting - I'd not read that before

Does that mean that if you got a brand new set of tappets and sent them to the right company to strip and re-coat the DLC properly then the issue would go away?

Or is the problem that the geometry of the various parts apply pressure in such a way that any DLC coating will fail prematurely

[Lannis]

That is interesting - I'd not read that before

Does that mean that if you got a brand new set of tappets and sent them to the right company to strip and re-coat the DLC properly then the issue would go away?

Or is the problem that the geometry of the various parts apply pressure in such a way that any DLC coating will fail prematurely

Don't know that, not being at all up-to-date on those fabrication processes.   DLC coatings are used in a lot of operations; apparently either the way it was used here, or the way it was implemented, didn't work.  That bit I DO know!

Someone else probably knows the technical details and timeline.   I was just addressing the scope of the original question.

Lannis

[Dilliw]

Just to clarify, the 08 and some 09 8Vs didn't come with DLC coated tappets; the DLC was the fix (or at least the quick fix) to the iron tappets that were failing.

Guzzi wasn't the only OEM to fall for the DLC solution:

https://www.excelerateperformance.com/news/2-0t-fsi-fuel-pump-failure

[John A]

It reminds me that when I was the service manager at a large Japanese motorcycle dealer in the 80's, I handled all the warranty claims so I was exposed to the different ways companies handled claims. One of them had a common practice of not publicly admitting to troubles but would honor a claim if the customer complained about a defect. often a customer could get a claim approved when I could not so I had the customer call the customer service if that was the case. Suzuki was one that I never had trouble with and have a favorable opinion of their products. I think the profit margin for a small manufacturer is such that they have to tighten up on claim approvals. I don't like it and its not right but I want them to stay in business too, so If they would quit screwing up that would make me happy.

[pete roper]

I know this question really doesn't relate to this thread tappet issue.Why does every over head cam bucket and shim(which is basically a flat tappet) not have the wear problems that Guzzi has.For that fact why does the two valve flat tappets have no wear issues.Maybe comparing apples and oranges?

No, no and no.

The system Guzzi uses is NOT an OHC system. It does NOT use shim and bucket activation and finally the flat tappets used in the earlier, two valve per cylinder, motors are a completely different design and are part of an entirely different valve train system.

Pete

[hauto]

OK yes they are different means of activation. But you really do not explain why one needs rollers to last and the others do not. I'm only trying to  clarify something I was thinking about.

[Two Checks]

If the cam lobes  have very steep ramps then only a mushroom head style or roller lifter can follow the cam lobes reliablly.

[bpreynolds]

Still haven't heard back from my dealer today yet.  I did follow up briefly with Don directly.  I believe the C kit is somewhere near $1300-$1500 US dollars if out of pocket.  Hope here is firmly in the camp of this just being mainly a word of mouth tidbit passed over the phone.  As I understand what Don is saying is that Piaggio has NOT YET turned down a specific/formal request from a dealer. 

[pete roper]

OK yes they are different means of activation. But you really do not explain why one needs rollers to last and the others do not. I'm only trying to  clarify something I was thinking about.

I’ve explained the conclusions of my exhaustive research on this issue several times now on this and other boards. If I have the time I’ll try and find a link but you can probably search it out if you wish and I’m very busy at the moment.

[bpreynolds]

Enzo (Cadre) inquired today and the regional service rep didn�t say anything about NOT covering parts; in fact, he restated the process.  Here is his response - which seems reinforce/restate what�s been said before:

�We normally cover parts only, if the problem is documented by the dealer.
 
This will require the bike to be brought to an authorized dealer and the dealer disassembles one side of the timing system to inspect the cam and buckets for wear.
 
If wear is found, you would need to send the VIN, mileage and photos of the damage to myself and Iris  ihenry@piaggiogroupamericas.com
 
If no wear is found, the customer would have to pay you for the disassembly, since the bike is long out of warranty.
 
There are 3 possible kits, based on the year of the bike and using the bulletin for identification.
 
If approved, Iris will have to open the VIN for  a parts only claim.
 
Once the entered claim is approved, the kit entered on the claim  is auto-shipped.   (old bulletin said to order the kit , but this  step is obsolete now.)�

If this is indeed still the policy, then it makes me quite happy, of course.  But a question.  I was thinking this is something that just gets done but from this above it sounds like if there is no wear then I guess(?) I just have to wait and pay for the disassembly again at a later time?  No biggie, just curious. 

[pete roper]

How many miles on your bike? If more than 15,000 there will be wear and it will be visible if they know what to look for. There doesn’t have to be exposed base metal, even a ‘Shadow ring’ of discolouration around the circumference of the tappet face is evidence of failure. Any missing DLC at all is a clear red flag, even the tiniest spec. There is no such thing as ‘Acceptable wear’.

Pete

[bpreynolds]

How many miles on your bike? If more than 15,000 there will be wear and it will be visible if they know what to look for. There doesn�t have to be exposed base metal, even a �Shadow ring� of discolouration around the circumference of the tappet face is evidence of failure. Any missing DLC at all is a clear red flag, even the tiniest spec. There is no such thing as �Acceptable wear�.

Pete

I just bought mine several weeks back from the original owner with only 2400 miles.  I just turned over 3400 miles this past week.

[pete roper]

It may not have immediately visible wear yet, look very closely, with a magnifying glass, at both the centres and edges off the tappet face.