Curious about valve adjustment issue

[Ncdan]

I’m curious as to how often,  if ever,  does the valves need to be readjusted from one time, when you did it yourself and know it was right, to the next appointment time to check them? My bike is a 07 Calvin and I’m around 5k since it was done by the PO. Happy turkey day!

[guzzisteve]

I've always checked them @ 5K and sometimes put off 20K to adjust.

[guzzi4me]

If it "sounds" like it needs to be adjusted I check them.

Otherwise about 4-5K miles I will check them no matter what they sound like.

On my V11's only needed to adjust one or two every 10-15k miles. Normally everything
well within limits.

Hope for the same on my V7II!!

Ride safe and often,

Jeff

[LowRyter]

I change oil every 3k miles, on the third change (9-10k) I change the oil filter, adjust the valves and service the tranny and rear end.  It's pretty close to the California recommendation but a little longer than recommended for the V11 Sport.  I am not sure why that intervals aren't the same regardless. 

[oldbike54]

If it "sounds" like it needs to be adjusted I check them.

Otherwise about 4-5K miles I will check them no matter what they sound like.

On my V11's only needed to adjust one or two every 10-15k miles. Normally everything
well within limits.

Hope for the same on my V7II!!

Ride safe and often,

Jeff

 Wait , you mean "our" bike wasn't lovingly tuned every 100 miles ?

 Dusty

[Ncdan]

Wait , you mean "our" bike wasn't lovingly tuned every 100 miles ?

 Dusty

Oh no, the truth leaks out. Not what Dusty wants to hear but I like that schedule:)

[oldbike54]

Oh no, the truth leaks out. Not what Dusty wants to hear but I like that schedule:)

 Yeah , and Jeff washed it every week also before it came to me 

 Kinda late to worry about it now some 55K miles later . Dang thing is costing me a fortune to keep running , probably close to 3 bucks now , and those tires and brake pads are killing me . Oh , and now I gotta replace a speedo cable . Breaking me it is 

 Dusty

[guzzi4me]

Yeah , and Jeff washed it every week also before it came to me 

 Kinda late to worry about it now some 55K miles later . Dang thing is costing me a fortune to keep running , probably close to 3 bucks now , and those tires and brake pads are killing me . Oh , and now I gotta replace a speedo cable . Breaking me it is 

 Dusty

I would demand a refund!!

Jeff

Ps.. what is this "washing" you speak of????

[oldbike54]

 ^^^

  :laugh:Oddly enough , she seems to have a force field that prevents water from getting anywhere near . Even in a rainstorm only her rider gets drowned 

 Dusty

[webmost]

5k, 10k, sounds extremely frequently to me. Is a Guzzi more prone by far to need this?

[Chuck in Indiana]

5k, 10k, sounds extremely frequently to me. Is a Guzzi more prone by far to need this?

It's such an easy thing to do.. why *not* do it?
Ok, I'm an anal airplane mechanic. At every "annual inspection" (you mean you don't do that?) I change fluids, do a leak down, take a look at the plugs..they tell you a *lot*, check the valves while I'm doing the leak down.
Especially on the old small blocks, a valve clearance closing up is a warning. Pay attention. <shrug>

[LowRyter]

I only want to fly on airplane maintained by anal mechanics. 

Something about 30+ years supporting the USAF in my former career......   

[rodekyll]

On my Jackal engine I usually adjust during yearly spring maintenance, and if I hear it getting clacky during the year, I check.

On the 1200 my best indication is uneven vacuum at idle.  If the vacuum is off, usually so are the valves.  I can't go by the noise because I have an PCV valve in the timing cover that makes a clatter.

[Bobbilljim]

It takes me longer to get the vacuum check setup than to check valves. My question is, does the anal aircraft mechanic change the gaskets on the rocker covers every time as a anal aircraft mechanic would never reuse old gaskets I'm sure? I'm just a regular aircraft mechanic so I wouldn't know 

[Orange Guzzi]

Maybe the question should be, What is wearing or failing in the valve operating system too the point that .002" of clearance is being added or lost every 5,000 miles   The valves do not get tight from one inspection to the next and then get loose between the next inspection.  I would look further into the inspection process if you have tight valves one inspection and then loose valves the next.   Or if every 5,000 mile, you are getting tighter valves or loose valves.  The accumulation of on one side or the other after 50,000 miles would be quite significant. 

[Wayne Orwig]

I am convinced, on the old 2 valve, that a lot of it is the adjuster pounding a little dimple into the top of the valve. Plus all the pushrods and such. Adding up to the gap opening a little over time. I always got a slight, and even, opening of the gap with mine.
Of course the 4 valves are another story. I assume the roller lifter versions are stable. Mine was. The 4 valve models have a small flat cap to open the valve, instead of hitting it with the round adjuster point.

[Ncdan]

I am convinced, on the old 2 valve, that a lot of it is the adjuster pounding a little dimple into the top of the valve. Plus all the pushrods and such. Adding up to the gap opening a little over time. I always got a slight, and even, opening of the gap with mine.
Of course the 4 valves are another story. I assume the roller lifter versions are stable. Mine was. The 4 valve models have a small flat cap to open the valve, instead of hitting it with the round adjuster point.

Good explanation Wayne. I think it’s pretty safe to say that if the valves are properly adjusted in the first place that they can only get looser over time. I simply can’t except the theory they can or will tighten up under any situation. It just don’t make mechanical sense that a nut with a lock not can tighten itself. I will be glad to acknowledge scientific explanations:)

[Rick4003]

One thing that can lead the clearance to become tighter is the valve streaching as Chuck as also meantioned is a warning on the small blocks. I don't know if it common on the big blocks. I never heard of it. I know my FZR600 is prone to streach the valves after  40-60.000 miles or so. I have to confess that I never actually checked the valves on it. So I wouldn't know how tight they are. It is a PITA to do the check and to adjust it as you have to take the bike half apart more or less.

-Ulrik

[rodekyll]

I am convinced, on the old 2 valve, that a lot of it is the adjuster pounding a little dimple into the top of the valve. Plus all the pushrods and such. Adding up to the gap opening a little over time. I always got a slight, and even, opening of the gap with mine.
Of course the 4 valves are another story. I assume the roller lifter versions are stable. Mine was. The 4 valve models have a small flat cap to open the valve, instead of hitting it with the round adjuster point.

On the valve jobs we did, squaring off the end of the valve stem was a standard thing.  Rockers are designed to hit the valve off-center.  The theory is that it spins the valve a few degrees each tap and keeps it seating and wearing evenly.  Most of the valve jobs I saw though showed that the spinny theory is a more-or-less thing, not an absolute.  It was common to have a little trough (not a dimple) worn into the valve top due to the rocker levering down in the same spot each time.

The result of the trough in the top is that the valve adjustment isn't accurate and probably isn't repeatable.  The feeler gauge only touches the high points.  So adjusted at the trough, you get feeler gauge thickness + depth of the trough as the actual lash.  That's going to be loud and loose.  Now let's say the valve DOES spin a bit and the trough is no longer lined up with the rocker.  the lash tightens up by the amount the trough is deep and now the valve is quiet and too tight.  Depending on where the valve is in the spin cycle, you will always get a + or - lash compared to last time.

The same observations can be applied to the came lobe and lifters.  "flat" tappets generally have a bit of a radius and the cam lobe lifts it off-center.  The two properties -- radius and cam lobe alignment -- combine to let the lifter spin a little at each go-round.  But as we see, the Guzzi flat tappets can get stuck and stop spinning.  This results in all the blah, blah, blah of the previous paragraph. 


Valves get tighter with service as easily as looser.  Carbon builds up on the seating surfaces and stems stretch, especially on 2-piece exhaust valves.  On the air-cooled VWs I overhauled, the sodium-filled, two-piece exhaust valves often had visually noticeable stretching where the head and stem were joined.  Neglecting the adjustment on those was a major cause of burned exhaust valves.  The stretching itself was a major cause of valve heads parting company with their stems.

It takes me longer to get the vacuum check setup than to check valves. My question is, does the anal aircraft mechanic change the gaskets on the rocker covers every time as a anal aircraft mechanic would never reuse old gaskets I'm sure? I'm just a regular aircraft mechanic so I wouldn't know 

Hmm.  If it takes longer to set up your manometer than check the valves you're doing it differently than I do.  I turn off the engine, remove the carbon can hoses from the manifolds and replace them with the manometer hoses.  It's about 20sec if I don't hurry.  The fastest I've ever done a valve adjust is at least twice that long.  My $8 homegrown vacuum balancer is always calibrated, which saves some time.

[ohiorider]

I got very careless with valve adjustment on my 1972 Super Beetle over 40 years ago, to the point where one of the valve heads came off the valve stem, wedged between the cylinder head and piston dome, and locked up the rear wheels until I thought to push in the clutch pedal.  Repaired it with what was easily available then, used parts, (used head, used piston, used rod.)  But the damage to other valves was already done, and shortly after repairing the first failure, another valve disintegrated, and pretty well finished the engine.  Live and learn!

Bob

[Ncdan]

On the valve jobs we did, squaring off the end of the valve stem was a standard thing.  Rockers are designed to hit the valve off-center.  The theory is that it spins the valve a few degrees each tap and keeps it seating and wearing evenly.  Most of the valve jobs I saw though showed that the spinny theory is a more-or-less thing, not an absolute.  It was common to have a little trough (not a dimple) worn into the valve top due to the rocker levering down in the same spot each time.

The result of the trough in the top is that the valve adjustment isn't accurate and probably isn't repeatable.  The feeler gauge only touches the high points.  So adjusted at the trough, you get feeler gauge thickness + depth of the trough as the actual lash.  That's going to be loud and loose.  Now let's say the valve DOES spin a bit and the trough is no longer lined up with the rocker.  the lash tightens up by the amount the trough is deep and now the valve is quiet and too tight.  Depending on where the valve is in the spin cycle, you will always get a + or - lash compared to last time.

The same observations can be applied to the came lobe and lifters.  "flat" tappets generally have a bit of a radius and the cam lobe lifts it off-center.  The two properties -- radius and cam lobe alignment -- combine to let the lifter spin a little at each go-round.  But as we see, the Guzzi flat tappets can get stuck and stop spinning.  This results in all the blah, blah, blah of the previous paragraph. 


Valves get tighter with service as easily as looser.  Carbon builds up on the seating surfaces and stems stretch, especially on 2-piece exhaust valves.  On the air-cooled VWs I overhauled, the sodium-filled, two-piece exhaust valves often had visually noticeable stretching where the head and stem were joined.  Neglecting the adjustment on those was a major cause of burned exhaust valves.  The stretching itself was a major cause of valve heads parting company with their stems.

Hmm.  If it takes longer to set up your manometer than check the valves you're doing it differently than I do.  I turn off the engine, remove the carbon can hoses from the manifolds and replace them with the manometer hoses.  It's about 20sec if I don't hurry.  The fastest I've ever done a valve adjust is at least twice that long.  My $8 homegrown vacuum balancer is always calibrated, which saves some time.

Well Road, I managed to comprehend a good portion of what you said and understood enough to realize why it’s important to at least check my valve clearance when the book specs calls for it. Thanks for the schooling you took the time to offer and for helping us less informed guzzi owners to keep our bikes well maintained. I’m personally glad you are part of the forum as well as several other guys here that have helped me out in the past.

[Bobbilljim]

Hmm.  If it takes longer to set up your manometer than check the valves you're doing it differently than I do.  I turn off the engine, remove the carbon can hoses from the manifolds and replace them with the manometer hoses.  It's about 20sec if I don't hurry.  The fastest I've ever done a valve adjust is at least twice that long.  My $8 homegrown vacuum balancer is always calibrated, which saves some time.

I dont have carbon can hoses on my CalII. I have to remove the plug screws from the manifold and I set my vacum with gauges bungeed to the tank on a towel and check it at speed. I know its probably over kill or too finicky or just wrong to some but it gives me smooth and even operation throught the throttle. I tried to make a home made version but i have been spoiled by gauges. 

[normzone]

On the 1200 my best indication is uneven vacuum at idle.  If the vacuum is off, usually so are the valves.  I can't go by the noise because I have an PCV valve in the timing cover that makes a clatter.

I was going to tease about " is there a vacuum gauge hooked up on the dashboard ? " but then I saw it was you, and decided not to waste my time 

[Chuck in Indiana]

It takes me longer to get the vacuum check setup than to check valves. My question is, does the anal aircraft mechanic change the gaskets on the rocker covers every time as a anal aircraft mechanic would never reuse old gaskets I'm sure? I'm just a regular aircraft mechanic so I wouldn't know 

One of these days, a valve cover gasket on the drone engine will fail. At that point, I'll make new ones.  With a little luck (and care) it won't, though.

[Bobbilljim]

I usually dont have that kind of luck. So you put a washer on the screw  under the rocker cover and tighten down with a bead of silicone on it and make your own seal?    ha ha...

[Bobbilljim]

NCDan i constantly am astounded by the knowledge these guys posess. Between this forum and manuals i have manage to come away with a smooth cool looking machine. Well, as soon as i replace a head and conrod bearings but thats for another thread. I began this oroject in a pretty deep hole looking up at storm clouds. Even with a few years of wrenching on Piaggios under my belt i knew i was in for a ride and these guys were definately lifesavers. If you havent been to GREG Bender’s sight yet check it out. He is incredibly kind and talented.













The tank i did myself with tons of practice and youtube videos and tips from guys here

[jacksonracingcomau]

I’m with y’all, annual check is overkill unless noise or no idle etc.
Very rare for B.B. to vary much but mates t3 the other day failed a leak down while looking why it spewed oil. Oil problem was unrelated (stuck breather valve) but one valve was tight as.
I’d retorqued this bike 3 times but that side needed 4!, other side was perfect.
Apart from not being re torqued enough the only way you lose clearance is valve not so much stretching but wearing out on seat face and pulling back towards spring.
Very very common on mx bikes with titanium valves but not on our ol dungers
A thou loose every 20 odd k miles normal for me but if you missed it and got to 4 you’d hear it quickly
Bet someone on here has gone a lifetime without adjusting, I’d believe it
And they bothered trying to make a hydro valve B.B., must have been very bored, trying to fix a problem that was never going to appear

[Chuck in Indiana]

I usually dont have that kind of luck. So you put a washer on the screw  under the rocker cover and tighten down with a bead of silicone on it and make your own seal?    ha ha...

  That would be no.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I�m with y�all, annual check is overkill unless noise or no idle etc.

Not on the old small blocks.. especially the Lario.

[flower_king001]

I check my valves every oil change on my EV and Lemans (3,000 miles). Oil and filter are cheap and I always like to clean out and inspect the pan. As for the valves it doesn't take to long to check/adjust if necessary.

Brian