Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley

[Chuck in Indiana]

Wouldn't the bolts do that?

By necessity, (production tolerances) bolt holes *have* to be oversized, generally about .015" to be able to assemble different production runs of parts. Dowels will put the location right on the money.

[Old Jock]

I don't keep them in stock as I so rarely need one. MG Cycle might be the best bet.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=3078

Thanks Charlie

I'm going to try and clean this one up & contact MotoMecca tomorrow too

I'll report as soon as I make some progress

John

[Old Jock]

Ok decided to try again with the existing Woodruff Key which was in good condition.

I cleaned it up with a Dremel and a worn out Emery cloth wheel, just a single pass across the surfaces and the edges. I then installed the key. Reckon I was getting my knickers in a twist when viewing the key from the side and seeing how proud it stood, when removing I paid it little attention.

Tapping it down with the small diameter pin punch then a much larger one once it was down as far as I could make out (a far larger diameter pin punch than the width of the key) convinced me it had to be seated. Moving the punch to either end would just rock the key, so I'm as sure as I can be all is good.

I then slipped on the gear and it slid easily over the shaft and into position. Checked the measurement length of gear end to shaft end, and it was the same as when I had installed the gear without the key, around 9.5 mm.

Once the gear was on the shaft, out with the pin punch again and tapped all the way around the gear, no movement.

Finally installed the washer, spring washer and nut, also secured with blue Loctite, I know the manual states red but I also torqued it a bit higher than the recommendation, not much but enough to make me comfortable it would stay there. Oh just to add this caused the engine to rotate all, I did was to use a large rag, which I placed between the crank gear and the stubshaft gear, that was sufficient to stop any rotation while torquing the oil pump gear nut.

Once the washers are on there is not much room on the pump shaft, the nut engages all the threads on the shaft but no more than that and the crank gear and pump gear are flush with each other on the outer edge. Joe also asked me if the gears were flush on the outside edge, so that sort of put my mind further at rest that it was all together



So all together and ready for the timing cover cover to be reinstalled, well after I clean off the old gasket and reinstall a new one that is

[Old Jock]

Just had note from Joe, I forgot about packing the pump with a light grease and he reminded me, it might be struggle to get the pump back off now.............Dam m, Damm, Damm

I was thinking about using some assembly lube I have lying around to do that, as it's pretty viscous stuff and would have less impact on the oil

[dxhall]

If you don't take it off and pack it with light assembly grease (Lubriplate 105) you will really, really, regret it.  Thus speaks one who just been there and done that.

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^^ this. Lubriplate is da bomb.

[Old Jock]

If you don't take it off and pack it with light assembly grease (Lubriplate 105) you will really, really, regret it.  Thus speaks one who just been there and done that.

I hear you I'll do it today although the thought of taking it off to redo it is not exactly filling me with joy and happiness

Thanks

[Old Jock]

Lubriplate arrived bigger pack than I was expecting, I'll use it for the cam followers too, later

Anyway back on topic

I had to remove the pump and gear again. Any thought of the gear not being fully engaged was alleviated when I had to pull the little sucker off, it was quite a struggle. Fortunately the pump came off after a few light taps on the shaft and it started to move almost immediately.

My original Engine reassembly lube was not viscous enough hence the change



Packed with the Lubriplate



Next cleaned up the oil pump taper and threads with Tricloroethalene. Inserted the gear onto the taper and tapped all the way around with a soft mallet to enure seating.

Had a change of heart after some mails with Joe and installed the original thick (3mm) stepped washer that was on the original pump and the bolt supplied by Joe with the pump (although I doubt it would have made any difference if I had used the spring washer and plain washer Joe supplied, which is a setup used on the 2V bikes). Applied 601 and bolted up a little past the recommended 2-2.2 Kgm

It's also important at this point to check the tooth engagement. Nothing complex just to ensure that the gear faces on the crank and oil pump are fully engaged. The gears are pretty much flush on the end with each other.



Moved the gears into position as they slipped a little when tightening up the oil pump bolt



I now have to try to determine if there is space between the oil pump shaft and the timing case cover for Joe, as he may extend the shaft a little to ensure the bolt is on completely. The threads on mine are fully engaged but not by much.

Then it's onto the timing cover and pulleys

[Old Jock]

Not much been happening, been delayed a bit by odds and ends. I have just put out a post on the phonic wheel sensor air gap and finally gaskets and Woodruff keys arrived.

Once all that lot is bottomed out I can start to button it up.

In the meantime while I was in there it was a good opportunity to put in my fittings to install a remote pressure switch (better quality) and hose primarily so as I can install an oil pressure gauge





Just the hose at this point as I'll need to determine where to mount the switch, on previous 2V bikes with this mod installed, it ended up close to the front cross member around where the external fuel pump lives on this bike.

There is an awful lot of stuff in that area, fuel pump, coils and horn, when I did this on the Sport 1100i, it got pretty crowded.

[rschrum]

Pretty sure I got mine at mg cycle last time. Easy to change, once you get to them.

[Old Jock]

Pretty sure I got mine at mg cycle last time. Easy to change, once you get to them.

Not saying they are hard to do, but there is a helluva difference between a 2V and a 4V Hi Cam engine in the amount of work required, if the switch goes tits up.

With a 2V you can pretty much get to it without removing much of anything, maybe front wheel and calipers.

With the Hi Cam, front wheel, calipers, coils, horns, fuel pump and associated bracketry plus wiring.

Followed by front subframe, belt cover, belts, cam driving pulley, alternator, belt tensioners (at least loosened off) all the Woodruff keys associated with the stuff running on the various shafts............. .....finally timing cover and then you find that with a 22mm spanner wrench you get limited access to the little sucker.

Then you need to reinstall all the s**t you took off.

My take is if I can move the switch to somewhere else to make my life easier I'm going to do it, although the main driver is to install a gauge.

With gauge and light I can have some confidence of what is really happening. With switch, or gauge, only; then you will freak if the light goes on or the needle takes a dive.

I've had failures with both gauges and switches in the past.

With a back up,  I'll have some idea if I can ride home or have to park the bike miles from nowhere and start walking

Just my experience

John

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^ yeah, it can be an all afternoon job, especially if that big hunker bolt that holds the sub frame on is frozen.. which it tends to be. 

[dxhall]

In the course of my work on the Centauro From Hell, I disassembled and reassembled the cam drive pieces four or five times.

The first time, I removed the front wheel, subframe, brake lines, etc.  By the last time, I had learned that it can be done without removing all that stuff. 

First, remove the six bolts that attach the subframe to the spine, but then just move the subframe forward - you don�t need to actually take it off to remove the belt covers or the timing cover.  This means you don�t have to take off the brake lines and disconnect all the wiring.

Next, you need to figure out a way to lock the motor so that you can remove the nuts on the crank, service, and cam shafts without an impact wrench.  This is important because if you need to use the impact wrench, you need to remove the front wheel to make room for the impact gun. Since the bike is on the lift with the front wheel clamped, the front wheel can�t just be moved out of the way.

One of the boxes of parts that came with my non-running Sport 1100 contained a starter that had been cut apart, and then jammed with a set screw.  When this is installed in place of the regular starter, the drive gear in the jammed starter engages the flywheel and locks the motor.

I just put this in place of the working starter and then can remove the shaft nuts with a breaker bar.  The jammed starter is also a big help when installing the degree wheel on the crankshaft.

You can try to lock the motor by just putting the bike in gear.  Good luck with that.

This is not an easy job, particularly if the right cam spins as you�re installing the belt and you need to degree the cams.  As others have observed, the motor is really a race motor which went into production without enough development time.

[Tom]

I have an engine hoist/cherry picker for contingencies that require the front wheel being dropped plus a moto lift.  I know most don't the options that I have.  Good luck with other options.  Good to hear. 

[Old Jock]

A little more progress, there has been a lot of other stuff getting in the way including breaking an exhaust stud on the 1100 & quite a few re-do's and retries on this job.

Highlights include, checking the Phonic wheel gap and finding it's out of spec (I got it into spec with a neutral switch gasket), finding the cam wheel was out by 180 degrees (I have no clue how I managed that) and buttoning it all up before trying to fit the crank spacer.

So doing it correctly firstly using the service bulletin and shims check phonic wheel to transducer air gap is between 0.7-0.9mm use neutral gaskets (0.2mm) or phonic wheel transducer shims (0.5mm) to bring the gap to spec.

I also learned that you don't need to remove the tensioners when removing the timing case, they can stay where they are; I just used some cap screws and penny washers onto my puller and Heh presto I can pull the pulleys easily. Before I had used the puller on the side of the pulley but that can distort the shoulder of the pulley wheels and is not advisable (DON'T ASK!!!  )



Check the Woodruff slots are in the same orientation as prior to the original gear removal



Install the crank spacer



Install the Cam/stubshaft spacers



Fit the timing cover and bolt it all up



More later if anybody has the remotest interest

John


 

[blackcat]

"More later if anybody has the remotest interest"

Yes.

[dxhall]

Getting the cams timed is tricky.  Have you removed the rocker arm assemblies?

[weevee]

"More later if anybody has the remotest interest"

Yes.

Me too.  I'm checking in now and then - and if I ever get my car re-assembled, I may even make a start on swapping the gears on mine    My biggest challenge is likely to be 'locking' the engine to get the big nuts loose; although I've an old seized Le Mans starter motor that I might try to use to jam the flywheel.

Did you find any problem with (..or wear on) the gears / pump you removed, John?   

Steve

[Old Jock]

Getting the cams timed is tricky.  Have you removed the rocker arm assemblies?

Not yet sir, when I was on the abortive assembly to try to install the crank spacer from the wrong side, I had the belts on and was ready to tension. The one on the right as you look at the casing (i.e. LHS by convention) was out 1/2 a tooth, but when I moved the tensioner into position to pull up the belt it was pulling the cam reference point to near enough bang on where it should be. I also had marked the base pulley point (the cam gear/stubshaft) on the belt and the points where the reference marks are on the cams. Again I assembled using these marks, so everything is as it should be and I'm confident (well as I can be) that nothing is out of whack, it's going back exactly the way it was taken apart and everything seems to be lining up.

The object of this particular exercise is to replace pump and gears. Providing I can get it to go back the same way (and it appears to me to be doing that) then I'll be pleased enough.

I appreciate your concern but I'm not timing the cams it was never my intention to. I'd love to, BUT, I know my limitations with the tools (and some might say intellect) available.

This exercise (so far) is not much more risky than a belt change as far as I can see.

Me too.  I'm checking in now and then - and if I ever get my car re-assembled, I may even make a start on swapping the gears on mine    My biggest challenge is likely to be 'locking' the engine to get the big nuts loose; although I've an old seized Le Mans starter motor that I might try to use to jam the flywheel.

Did you find any problem with (..or wear on) the gears / pump you removed, John?   

Steve

I rattled both the nuts with a gun, Steve, so the engine did not have to be locked super tight. The gun makes a big difference but it is a bit of "sledge hammer" tool & not ideal. When you're taking the nuts off, the belts are still in place so you don't need to worry so much. I put the bike in first and wedged the rear tire with wooden blocks. Seemed to work Ok! Any movement is not the stuff of nightmares as cams and cam gear are still in communication. It's when you pull the belts that you start to raise the excitement levels.

No wear to either pump or gears Steve that I could see, no scoring shaving or play was obvious on any of the components. 

[dxhall]

I asked about the rockers because some sections of the manual suggest that they should be removed before timing the cams.  This would certainly make it easier to install the vernier gears.  I didn’t do it that way because I was concerned that loosening some, but not all, of the head bolts (which you do when removing the rockers) would cause head gasket problems down the road.  I am wondering whether anyone has done it that way and if so whether gasket problems followed.

[Old Jock]

I asked about the rockers because some sections of the manual suggest that they should be removed before timing the cams.  This would certainly make it easier to install the vernier gears.  I didn’t do it that way because I was concerned that loosening some, but not all, of the head bolts (which you do when removing the rockers) would cause head gasket problems down the road.  I am wondering whether anyone has done it that way and if so whether gasket problems followed.

The only thing I can say about that is I also have a solid set cam followers to go in, but they are not going in this year.

The guy who sold me them Bruce Rawsthorne advised me that I could install them by simply loosening off the head bolts to get access to the followers to replace them.

This guy has built more Hi Cam engines than total bikes I've ever owned and is very experienced. He did not seem to express any concern about loosening off the bolts and then re-torquing and not replacing the gasket.

That's just advice of course so when I do it I'll let you know, but I do understand the concern and follow the logic.

[Old Jock]

Finally assembled

Things that help a lot
Knowing the crank turns clockwise as you are facing the front of the engine and remembering it turns twice for every one rotation of the cam gear (obvious I know but when you are moving the rear wheel to get to various marks it's so easy to forget)
Remembering the cam service shaft will turn anti clockwise as the crank turns clockwise & any number of crank degrees needs to be halved on the cam pulley.

So with the timing cover on I tried to torque the nuts on the alternator and cam service shaft, fail because I could not lock the crank to prevent rotation. As I was installing a Roper plate and I did not have any method to lock the crank, I decided to drop the sump then the internals for the cooler and the spacer plate. That gave me access to the crank, with a small piece block of wood stuffed between the crankcase and the crank counterweights that did the trick and I could torque up the nuts. You will need to move said block from one side to the other of the crankcase as the crank will turn in the opposite direction when torquing the service shaft nut.

Sounds like a lot of trouble but if you aren't lucky enough to have a buggered starter motor or the like then it's probably the easiest way and works a treat rather than trying to jam the back wheel (take my word for it and just forget that idea). It means dropping 14 bolts, no center bolts under the sump on the broad sump engines, all around the periphery. The downside is that the 2 breather pipes need to come off so 6 crush washers required to put them back. After the sump is dropped, then 4 bolts remove the internals and although I removed the oil filter I think it can stay in place when you drop the whole gubbins. No need to remove the spacer, but it helps if the bike is blocked or raised to see what you are doing.

Assembly altogether

 

Next is to tighten the belts and that's where I'm in deep shit. I have limited experience with belts, very limited, I've tightened them to just about being able to push the belts 90 degrees with my finger when tightened. The belts are adjusted with no load on them at TDC firing stroke. So first the right one as you are looking at it (left in standard terminology) I use the marks on the pulleys plus the flywheel mark plus a little wooden long barbecue stick that the better half has a pack of in a drawer. A long lollipop stick, coffee stirrer etc: would work just as well. It's scary how close the piston actually rises, well it was to me.

Before I button it all up I'm going to call a Guzzi mechanic in the area to get him to confirm my belt tension is Ok and I'm going to get a belt tension tool made for future too.

I'll now need to start to write up what to do and not do as otherwise I'm going to forget

But really unless you are timing the cams (which I didn't) it's no riskier than a belt change, it's just a lot more work

Hope the thread helped.

If Gregg Bender accepts the article then it will go onto Guzzitech DK now under "This Old Tractor" hosted by Gregg & I'll flag up with another thread and a link when/if that happens

John

[Tom]

 

[weevee]

Thanks for the write-up on this, John.  It's thrown some light on the job for me. 

I swapped the belts on mine as soon as I got it, and I just used the time-honoured 'twist to test the tension' method.  I follow the old adage: they're better a little slack than too tight!  I also swapped the belts on my old Ducs a number of times using the same trick, and I never had any problems with any of them.  The Oz ran just great afterwards - although it was a little unnerving to press the starter for the first time!

Let us know if/when you fire 'er up! 

Steve



 

[Old Jock]

Will do Steve

Still in bits at the moment just about same stage as the last picture, no reply from Mechanic yet   

I'll get back into it next week sometime

John

[weevee]

Hi John.  Just to say I finally got round to opening up the timing chest on my Oz.  Check out what I found.  Scuffing to the alloy gear-teeth, and side-to-side play on the oil-pump shaft.  Hmm!  Maybe I dodged a bullet when I stopped riding the bike!

I've e-mailed Joe Caruso hoping he can supply me with the larger steel gear.  (I bought only the oil-pump & the lower gear from him previously, because they were all he had at the time).  I'm planning on using the bike for the Classic TT in August, so my fingers are crossed!

Steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEKT8Nz15DQ

ps.  You'll notice this engine doesn't have the same 'phonic wheel' set-up that yours has.  The pick-up is just bolted to the back of the large gear!

[Old Jock]

Wow Steve

The scuffing on the cam gear was bad enough, but that oil pump gear is simply scary!! Good video glad you caught it and dodged a bullet for sure. If there is anything I can help with don't hesitate.

Let me know how you get on with Joe PM me

I've got the steel gears on mine & as you know I have the low pressure problem. I've measured both front and rear mains and they are within spec (just) both on the wide side but right on the limit. Bearing surfaces good and the front journal was also in spec but near the minimum (couldn't get a mic in to measure the rear). Both restricers in place and nothing out of the oridinary at all. It's looking like I'll just have to live with the low pressure as I'll be dammed if I could find anything.

Just waiting on some friction plates for the clutch (they were near the minimum so I thought may as well). The bike was VERY clean inside so the low mileage looks genuine & the plates probably didn't need replacing but what the hell.

While I've got the box off I'll put in the double row bearings and change the seals and O rings and anything else I find. Then it willl be a long weary road  of assembling everything again and checking out the oil cooler and stat to make sure they are fine. Still debating about moving to a bigger oil cooler as I think it would be a good move, you've got a bigger one on yours I believe

Thanks again for posting very useful, Joe will love that video for his collection of all the things that can happen to these bikes

John 

[Chuck in Indiana]

It wouldn't have taken much longer..  Yep, you dodged a bullet all right. 

[blackcat]

Weevee, how many miles on that engine?

[weevee]

Weevee, how many miles on that engine?

Only 17,500mls, so far as I know.  However, I imported the bike so I couldn't swear to it.