Lots of engine assembly questions

[motogman]

I am prepping my 74 engine for reassembly and have lots of questions. I don't have much engine rebuild experience (only a couple and the last was an 8N 15 years ago) and this is my first Guzzi motor.  I have found Greg Benders documentation on assembly of an 850 and that seems likely to be my main guide (at least at this point).  Some of my questions...

1)  Any reference to other good assembly threads is appreciated...  I am doing the search thing and finding some - lot s of really good experience and threads here - but if you have a favorite please share the link.

2)  How to clean the alumium cases and covers so they look nice - like lots of the motors you guys have done?  What do you use and what is your process for getting the cases cleaned up and looking new and natural?

3)  Assembly lube - what product is good?


Once I get things cleaned up and ready to assemble I will likely start a thread to document progress and get the experienced eyes here watching over my should to keep me from doing something really dumb.

Thanks.



 

[Hahnda]

Do you have an automotive transmission or engine rebuild shop in the area? Sometimes I have the all the parts vapor blasted but if you just want everything really clean you might try to find a place that has a jet washer. Its like a huge dishwasher for engine parts. I have a transmission shop 3 miles away and for a small fee they run my parts though the washer. They get clean but doesn't give you a like new finish. I like to use it on bikes that I want to stay original looking.

I am sure there are a wide variety of opinions on assembly lube but I use NAPA lubriplate 105. Its a light, white grease that contains zinc.

[John Ulrich]

Eagle One Etching Mag Wheel cleaner is my go to block cleaner.  Beware it will "cloud" polished aluminum it comes in contact with forcing you to repolish.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Wear nitrile gloves.  Any cleaner that is strong enough to work is probably carcinogenic or at least toxic as hell.
 Nitrile gloves won't dissolve in solvents or oils.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I tried all sorts of stuff but it would always look grimey so I sprayed the casings with engine paint.



One thing I learned the hard way, step back and take a look every now and then, I carefully put the heads on for the first time
Stepped back to admire my good work, Oh shit, I put the heads on backwards LOL.
They are fun to put together especially when they fire right up at the first touch of the starter as mine did.

[Old Jock]

God Roy I know what you mean, to the stepping back I'd also add walk away when things are getting difficult.

Well I do because its inevitable that I do the most damage when I'm frustrated.

That engine/trans looks awesome nice work .

To the OP

You might get better advice if people know where you are, I'd get the casings done by a shop if you want a real first class finish and it may cost a bit more than you think. If you are in the UK I can tell you where I got mine done if it helps

Almost any branded assembly lube will do the job, I used Red Line on a 1000 and am using Torco MPZ on an 1100

If its a small block then I have no clue if its a big block I don't know if you have come across Guzitech DK a sub set of Gregg's site where there is an awesome assembly article by Prof Roper and a not so awesome article by me on the 5 speed box plus lots of other stuff

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_index.htm   

I'd download all the Technical and Technical - The complex stuff articles (I have)

Hope that helps some

John

[Perazzimx14]

Any reference to other good assembly threads is appreciated...  I am doing the search thing and finding some - lot s of really good experience and threads here - but if you have a favorite please share the link.

www.thisoldtractor. com 

[motogman]

Great input and advice thus far.  I am in SE Michigan so there should be plenty of speed shops etc. in the area that may be able to do the cleaning.  Anybody in this part of Michigan that has some recommendations that are borne from a good experience please let me know.

Kiwi Roy -  that is a nice looking motor.

Sasquatch Jim - I should get the Nitrile...  I often clean (the first round anyway) with just pump gas and should probably do more to protect my skin.

I will check out Roper and Old Jock's rebuild thread today.

Keep the advice coming...

Thanks

[canuck750]

NAPA Aluminum brighter dilutes 50% and a very high pressure car wash, use a full face respirator and good rubber gloves

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=59430.0

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Sasquatch Jim - I should get the Nitrile...  I often clean (the first round anyway) with just pump gas and should probably do more to protect my skin.

I use Raven gloves, doubled up when using any nasty chemicals.


For your own safety and health, please don't use gasoline to clean. There are much better alternatives - I use Mineral Spirits ("Paint Thinner" from Lowe's) in my parts washer.

I was talking to Greg Bender the other day and he uses Purple Power heated in a Betty Crocker Roaster Oven. Says it cleans extremely well, but of course the Roaster Oven limits the size of parts that can be cleaned.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I use Stoddard solvent in the parts cleaner. If I'm going to be in oily stuff for long periods, I use a water soluable barrier cream liberally worked into cuticles, etc. up to my elbows. Nothing much affects it except water. I hate long periods of rubber gloves and sweaty hands. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh, forgot. you were asking about assembly lube. Yeah.. they make it.  Lots of commercial stuff available. Besides that, I use a roughly 50-50 mix of STP and your favorite motor oil. Stays where you put it. I put it everywhere. Another thing I like to do is spritz some Marvel Mystery oil on all the valve stems, etc. It's a *really* good upper cylinder lube. After all this, fill with oil, crank with the plugs out until the oil pressure comes up, and you're golden.

[oldbike54]

 Take real care to put as many parts back in as you take out , sounds simple , not always so simple to accomplish 

  Dusty

[motogman]

Take real care to put as many parts back in as you take out , sounds simple , not always so simple to accomplish 

  Dusty

When I was first learning to work on bikes as a kid in grade school and high school I often had this problem.  Now my problem is finding all the parts that should go back in...       

[garbln]

When I put my 1970 together I found a auto machine shop that had a huge ultrasonic cleaner.   Big enough to do V8 blocks & heads, for a few bucks they threw in my engine parts.  They don't look sand or vapor blasted but I know they are CLEAN inside and out and that's what I care about.  Use a assembly lube, crank it over till you get oil pressure as suggested  earlier and your good to go.

[injundave]

If you have everything all the way apart find someone who does soda blasting. All the alloy on my T3 came up looking like new and, best of all, you rinse in water.

Dave

[mtiberio]

kerosene and a toothbrush

[blackcat]

If you have everything all the way apart find someone who does soda blasting. All the alloy on my T3 came up looking like new and, best of all, you rinse in water.

Dave

Yeah, I took my engine, transmission and final drive to a guy who soda blasts everything from entire cars to little projects like mine. I think it cost me $50 bucks and they looked brand new when done.

[motogman]

Progress is being made...

1)  When assembling joints with paper gaskets, like the oil pipe connections in the lower end etc., do you apply any lubricant to the paper gasket before assembly or put them together dry?

2)  Any problem with using 18-8 stainless fasteners in AL - life for the front timing cover and sump etc?

3)  How do you evaluate if the timing chain is OK or needs replaced?

[balvenie]

FWIW,
I'm not doing an engine but I find it helpful to make notes and drawings

[racasey]

Progress is being made...

1)  When assembling joints with paper gaskets, like the oil pipe connections in the lower end etc., do you apply any lubricant to the paper gasket before assembly or put them together dry?

2)  Any problem with using 18-8 stainless fasteners in AL - life for the front timing cover and sump etc?

3)  How do you evaluate if the timing chain is OK or needs replaced?

I generally assemble all gaskets dry.  If it's cork, like a float bowl gasket, I'll soak it I water for a few minutes so it will expand a bit and then crush to seal mating surfaces.  If it's a thin paper gasket, used in potentially fatal applications, like an oil union, I'll moisten them as well, to avoid cracking on pull up. I rarely use gasket goo with gaskets.

Stainless fasteners are ok in joints that are not highly stressed, and when extra appearance is desired.  I personally dislike the look of natural raw stainless fasteners.  If the fastener can be readily seen, I'll either polish to a chrome like shine, or glass bead blast to mimick a clean zinc fastener. 

Note, most stainless fasteners are rated well below property class 8.8 steel fasteners, the most common class used on metric automotive equipment.  You mention sump.  Since most leaks on motorcycles are thought to originate on sumps, and most people over tighten sump fasteners, and a broken sump bolt is a real nuisance to repair, and sump bolts are rarely an appearance item, I'd avoid stainless and use plated steel alloy fasteners.  I know lots of "ands" but I think you get the point.

Timing chains are easily measured with good equipment.  Look up the pitch length and measure the overall length with the chain pulled straight on a flat surface.  3% or greater stretch is a candidate for replacement.  Good info here.  http://www.diamondchain.com/understanding-wear-life.php

If the chain is endless and difficult to remove and measure, than mileage is a good gauge and on a complete rebuild, I'd probably routinely replace a timing chain at 30,000 miles and above.  Maybe less on a high performance bike like an MV Agusta.

Should you desire to use stainless fasteners, stainless bolts with stainless nuts tend to readily gall, I generally use anti seize and a torque wrench.

Ciao,
Dick Casey

[motogman]

Thanks Dick.

You mention moistening paper gaskets - is that with water or engine oil?  I thought a light oil might be best but that is what I am seeking others experience to understand.

Good point on the sump bolts - they are not really to visible.  The ones that I took out look like crap - rusty etc but I suspect you are correct that steel are better here.  The front covers (alternator and timing cover) and valve covers are where I am thinking SS cap screws.  I am no sure where else yet - I haven't gotten that far.    The bead blast idea is a good one.

[racasey]

Old dry thin paper gaskets can be moistened with water or WD40.  You are simply trying to return some pliability during assembly.

Please note, bead blasting or when wet, vapor blasting will leave lots of glass in every possible crevice, nook, and cranny.  Every threaded hole demands running a bottoming tap thru the threads.  Many think a blast of air, a bristle 'bottle brush', or a shot of WD 40 will be sufficient.  Nope, every hole must be chased with a tap, or the mating steel fastener will gall, resulting in many damaged holes and fasteners.

Please use abrasives like glass bead as the last possible resort, and never on surfaces that meet lubricating oil. 

One last thought on gasket goo.  I rarely use it, but if I must, primarily to hold a gasket to a surface during assembly, glue the gasket to the "removable part", like the sump cover, or timing chest cover, etc.  this way, should you be required to scrap off the gasket in the future, you can set the part on a work bench, not lay on the floor trying to scrap the under side of the engine block.

Next time you are in a NAPA auto parts store, buy several cans of Macs 4700 aerosol brake cleaner.  It's inexpensive, very effective cleaner/degreaser, and far less obnoxious than most others.  When you need to clean a small part during assembly, degrease a thread before applying thread locker, or wash a lightly oiled part, you can walk outside, apply a quick blast of Macs 4700, dry with a blast of sir and assemble.  Fast and effective.  It's a mainstay in my shop. 

The open tank of Stodard Solvent was discarded years ago.  To hazardous, too messy.  Today washing  with Super Clean, Simple Green, Macs 4700, a good pressure washer, and compressed air makes work more pleasant with better results, for this mechanic.  Always, safety first!

Ciao,
Dick

[Stevex]

Stainless steel grade A4-80 has the tensile strength of 8.8 steel. I've used SS extensively on my LM2. Just be sure to use a good lubricant on threads and bolt shanks, I use a copper based grease. I torque all fasteners but when fitting stainless fasteners into aluminium always use a torque wrench.
3% stretch...on a flat surface...if you're going to take the timing chain out to measure it, just replace it.
I decided mine was worn enough and replaced it at about 34K miles.

[redrider]

I use a thin layer of grease on paper gaskets. I can re-use valve cover gaskets many times.