Author Topic: 1100 sporti charging  (Read 22031 times)

Offline bigpants

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1100 sporti charging
« on: July 01, 2016, 09:54:40 AM »
Hiya folk's. Quick question , my bikes sat unused and not running for a couple of years. Ive recently fitted a new loom and it started straight up. However the battery keeps going flat and the flatter it gets the more a misfire occurs. Would u expect a low battery to actually cause a misfire or stop a running engine ?
Ta.

Offline rocker59

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2016, 10:09:13 AM »

Yes.
 
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Offline Murray

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2016, 10:15:20 AM »
Yes.

 :1: Either your coils will start producing a crappy spark or the ECU will start doing odd things like shutting down.

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 10:19:35 AM »
Thanks for that. Im charging the battery now but I'll have to wait till it starts to go flat to check if the misfire comes back. It seems like both cylinders flicker on off for half a second every few mins to start with and then gets more frequent until it completely stops.

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 10:19:35 AM »

Offline dsrdave

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2016, 12:05:13 PM »
Get the bike running and check for voltage with 3k rpm or so.  I like to see 13.5 or more.  You may have to clean ALL connections in the charging circuit and make sure the voltage regulator is working.  Good luck.
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Offline Tom

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 08:00:24 PM »
Or charge the battery then do a load test.
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2016, 06:44:27 AM »
Ok the battery has been charged and the bike fired straight up. I'll take it for a spin when ive done the domestic chores and see if the misfire has gone. If it was a dodgy voltage regulator would there be any other symptoms?

Online Old Jock

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2016, 10:58:32 AM »
Ok the battery has been charged and the bike fired straight up. I'll take it for a spin when ive done the domestic chores and see if the misfire has gone. If it was a dodgy voltage regulator would there be any other symptoms?

Depends if the regulator allows overcharge, then you might start to blow bulbs and your battery could get hot then toast, if its just not charging then the battery will just run down and you'll get a misfire followed in short order by the bike stopping altogether

Easy way to check put a voltmeter across the battery and rev the bike up to around 2.5-3k WITH A FULLY CHARGED GOOD BATTERY, you should be seeing somewhere between 13.5-14 Volts as a rule of thumb.

The difficulty occurs if you are not sure if the battery is good, you could check the Volts on the battery at idle, if its just been charged and its good you should see about 12.5-13 volts, once you rev you should see that rising.

The other thing is it could be a crap battery or you could have a parasitic draw, failed diode in the regulator would do that, if its the same as my 1100 then the reg/rec is all one unit

How old and what type of battery? How long does it take for the battery to get flat from just being left in the bake?

Offline Tom

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2016, 03:40:41 PM »
A load test on a charged battery would eliminate the battery.  If you don't have a load tester take it to Autozone, O'Reilly's etc. 
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2016, 03:45:49 PM »
The regulator is the common failure with those systems. It needs a good ground ran from the regulator case to an engine bolt. It's probably too late for that, though. Do that on the new one. :)
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2016, 05:36:40 PM »
Ok, by now I assume you've load tested the battery and it's good. Start it up and check between the yellow wires coming off the alternator. They should show about 45 volts AC from memory. If so, the regulator is bad.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Tom

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2016, 05:52:09 PM »
 :1:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 05:13:12 AM »
Thanx for all the replies. Latest news is the battery on the running bike measure 11.8v and 12.7v off the bike. The voltage drops enough to stop the bike in about 10miles. I tried to check the output of the two yellow wires but wasnt sure if I was using the scale on the ac mutlimeter correctly as I got either4.48v or 44.8v ac but based on what chuck said im guessing I got 44.8v. Guess this means reg/rec is shot ? Bike has just come back from the shop and worked fine before but they have moved and remounted my reg/rec so im wondering if that was the cause?

Offline Murray

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 05:46:01 AM »
The Ducati regs use the case of the regulator as the earth reference I'd make sure the bolts clean tight free of corrosion and have good metal to metal contact if you are feeling paranoid run an earth wire from it. Although in general if something fails on the Ducati charging system 99.9% of the time its the reg, plenty of aftermarket options available the OEM ones are a bit pricey.

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2016, 06:09:04 AM »
Is there a simple test a simple person can do with the multimeter to check the reg ?

Offline Murray

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2016, 07:40:58 AM »
Is there a simple test a simple person can do with the multimeter to check the reg ?

Yes stick it across battery (DC volts) with bike running at idle battery will be showing similar to what is was with engine off, at 1300 rpm you should see a jump in voltage at least 0.5 of a volt this is the system kicking in. at 4500 rpm the voltage should reach 14.6 volts plus or minus 0.1 of a volt the voltage should not increase and further with an increase in rpm. If it passes the AC test but fails at the battery there is pretty much only one component it could be.

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2016, 08:10:16 AM »
Would it be possible to check the reg output at the reg so I can eliminate any other loom problems as a new loom was fitted recently ?

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2016, 08:30:21 AM »
Yes, if you unplug the red wire you should see the battery Voltage at the loom.
Make sure you have 12 Volts on the black wire at the regulator (red/black wire of the loom) with the key On
(you won't if the headlights not on, unplug the light below the bucket if you are trying to conserve charge)
The 12 Volts comes from the headlight circuit after the relay.
Without running the alternator yellow wires should be < 0.5 Ohms
If your meter has a diode test range (----->|-----) from yellow to red of the regulator should measure ~0.5 red lead to yellow black lead to red
As someone else mentioned the regulator case has to be grounded because that's the way the current gets back from ground to the alternator, use a short
wire between the regulator case and a timing cover bolt.
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Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2016, 08:36:56 AM »
Ive got good earths from the reg but something u have just mentioned triggered alarm bells - ive recently took my headlight off for repair - could this be relevant ?

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2016, 09:59:50 AM »
Im getting no voltage out of their black wire from reg (key on) but 11.5v from the black and  red one ?

Offline Dean Rose

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2016, 10:05:26 AM »
The easy thing to do would toss the battery and try a new one.

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Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2016, 10:06:33 AM »
Tried that and it did the same.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 10:22:11 AM »
Im getting no voltage out of their black wire from reg (key on) but 11.5v from the black and  red one ?
That sounds right, this Voltage tells the regulator to start charging, when it reaches about 13.8 the regulator turns Off.
It's ok to remove the headlight just do it at the bucket. do not pull the headlight fuse or relay, the regulator MUST have the Voltage you see on the black wire.

With the regulators Red wire unplugged do you see 12 Volts on the red wire at the loom side. It should go directly to battery +, perhaps thru a 30 Amp fuse.
The 30 Amp fuses are bothersome, the socket they plug into has weak springs and they often overheat turning the plastic of the fuse black. Other bikes have no fuse, the wire goes directly to the battery.
The regulators usually fail when one of the diodes goes open circuit, measure the diode between yellow and the red wire with a diode test. If you don't have diode tester use the Voltmeter on 2 Volt scale and pass a small current thru the diode from yellow to red perhaps an AAA cell if the diode is good it will clamp the Voltage to 0.5 to 0.6 Volts (don't use a high current source like the bike battery or you will damage the diode)
So to explain it differently you measure the AAA cell Voltage = 1.5 Volts then connect yellow to positive, red to negative and the Voltage will drop to ~0.5 - 0.6, this is the diodes forward bias Voltage.
I assume you have already measured the alternator Yellow to Yellow at < 0.5 Ohms and 20 - 60 Volta AC while the bike is running.
Here is the schematic for the Ducati Energia regulator, the circuitry in colour is just to operate the charge light.

The current flows from the alternator coil thru a diode thru the battery to ground, from ground to the regulator case, from case thru an SCR and back to the alternator thru the other yellow wire. It changes direction 14 times while the engine turns once, it's busy.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 10:38:18 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 10:50:38 AM »
As best I can tell with limited experience ive got 0.4ohm engine off and 44.8v engine running between the yellows. Looking at the wiring diagram , and im not saying ive read it properly , but if the red wire output from the reg is always just at or below battery voltage then it is probably faulty ? Ive got what I think is a diode test on my meter and it just reads one so cant be sure im using it correctly.

Offline bigpants

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2016, 11:01:26 AM »
Phew Roy , that schematic is way beyond me , I can just about check voltage but I wouldnt count on anything else. I keep hearing reference to the lighting circuit , my headlights are off the bike , could this effect things?

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2016, 08:58:06 AM »
Roy I don't want to hijack the thread BUT can you enlighten me

I cannot not believe even Guzzi (who do some pretty weird shit with wiring) would wire the sensing line through the headlamp, meaning the headlamp has to be on to charge, it just makes NO sense.

The headlamp relay may not be a headlamp relay (in the sense that I would use the term), it appears the pilot is triggered through the kill switch which in turn receives a supply via the pilot side of the power relay which comes in turn from the ECU, so it may be turned on all the time, providing the ignition is on and the kill switch set at Run

The power of the headlamp relay is switched via the starter and appears to always have a supply as long as the starter is not operating

Am I missing something?

My head is starting to hurt

John

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2016, 10:05:26 AM »

I cannot not believe even Guzzi (who do some pretty weird shit with wiring) would wire the sensing line through the headlamp, meaning the headlamp has to be on to charge, it just makes NO sense.

John
That's the way it is John, they did it that way for all the years they used the Ducati Energia. The reason I think is the regulator pulls 15 mA so they needed to disconnect it when the bike isn't running. The main problem with this is the Voltage drop through the headlight relay is not consistent it can vary from 1/2 Volt (case 1) to over a Volt (case 2) as the relay socket builds up resistance.
They allow for the normal Voltage drop 0.5 - 0.6 by setting the regulator for 13.8 so end up with 14.3 (case 1) at the battery. As the contacts build up some resistance the Voltage drop goes up 13.8 + 1 =14.8 (case 2) so now the battery is starting to cook and as the charge Current to Voltage applied is exponential the regulator cooks itself.

The regulator does a great job of keeping the headlight Voltage constant, not so good at holding the battery.

Weird shit, I agree.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 10:07:58 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2016, 10:14:47 AM »
Ive got what I think is a diode test on my meter and it just reads one so cant be sure im using it correctly.

If it just gives you a reading on one of the yellows that's a sign that the diode in the other one has melted it's lead off, I have seen this in all the faulty ones I pulled apart (4), with only half the charging capacity it will really struggle to keep the battery charged (this is how it was on my first Guzzi). It's possible to add a diode on the outside since it's just between yellow and red but better of course to get a new regulator, go for one of the direct connect type that doesn't rely on the flakey headlight circuit.

This is what it looks like when the lead melts off the diode (upper Left). The lead is the thing like a tack you see laying by the lower diode note how the diode is blackened by arcing.
You can also see the two SCRs screwed to the case (lower right)  This reg also had the charge light circuit burnt out (lower board, towards right), I suspect the lamp shorted out.

I'm almost certain the diodes melt their leads because of the flakey Voltage reference (too much Voltage drop = too much current)

A couple of diode boards from 2 regulators From left to right Yellow wire, Red wire, Yellow wire, thats why you can test them with your diode tester.
The diode on the RH board has melted right off, it could be soldered back and it would work again.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:02:21 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Howard R

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2016, 10:55:20 AM »
John, the reg/rec needs to know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out if it needs more, or to shut off charging when the battery voltage is "right" (i.e. ~14.5 volts.)  The headlight relay is simply a convenient point to pick up a switched line to the battery, it needs to be hot only with the ignition on to prevent parasitic losses or a malfunction in the RR from draining the battery with the switch off.  The headlight bulb itself is incidental to charging operation, if the light bulb has burned out, been removed or unplugged the charging system will still work as long at the voltage still makes it as far as the RR reference connection.  As Roy pointed out, in this wiring scheme the regulator actually regulates the headlight voltage relative to the regulator case, taking it on faith (Yeah, right with Italian wiring!) that the battery will be somewhere close to that.

The OP has diagnosed the problem pretty well.  Seeing something approximating battery voltage at both the reference point (red/black wire)  with the switch on and at the red output wires with the regulator unplugged, combined with good AC voltage at the yellow wires pretty much eliminates problems with the loom and only leaves the RR as the culprit.  On a lot of meters, the diode check measures junction voltage and will show an over range indication (the 1 with the rest of the digits blank the OP mentioned) with an open circuit.   A reverse biased good diode will show that, as will a burned out (open circuit) diode.  A good forward biased diode will (as mentioned) show somewhere around 1/2 a volt.  OP, go back to your diode check and swap the leads around to change polarity on the DUT (diode under test) and if you see the blank/1 in both directions you have confirmed a bad diode inside the RR so, unfortunately, the whole unit needs to be replaced.  To get a sort-of check on your diode meter, short the two meter leads together.  You should see the readout go from the open circuit/1 to somewhere around zero (maybe 0.0something) if it does that the meter is probably good.  As to why the charging system seems to have worked for a while and then suddenly failed, that is a characteristic of anything electronic and the timing relative to your repairs/rebuild is probably coincidental.

Howard
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Online Old Jock

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Re: 1100 sporti charging
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2016, 12:07:10 PM »
Roy, Howard R

Many thanks for the explanations, but following the paths using Carl Allison's diagram for the Sporti 1100 i, I do not see that headlight relay being a headlight relay at all, in the sense I mean. If the headlamp is on or off is entirely irrelevant to the state of that relay

The power for the pilot side of the relay comes from pin 26 of the ECU which travels to the pilot side of the Power relay, where there is a take off that runs power to the Kill and Start switch, the switched side of the kill switch runs (eventually) to the pos side of the pilot on the headlight relay. So as long as Pin 26 is feeding voltage and the kill switch is set to run then the headlight relay will be energized.

The only difference between the headlight relay function and the Power relay (which feeds coils and injectors) is the kill switch (and the starter on the power side)

On the power side the headlamp relay receives its feed via an n/c contact on the starter relay which in turn gets its power from fuse 3.

Ergo
ignition on, kill switch to run & starter not engaged :- The headlamp relay and hence voltage sensing line is receiving volts.

I understand and agree that using a sensing line through a relay is a really lousy design, but I still don't think the headlamp had much to do with anything. The only way that relay could be called a headlamp relay is because it kills the beam (and the brake lights) when the starter is engaged

I'm sorry I did not mean to go off topic and I know Roy knows so much more than me, I am just trying to understand and hopefully also helping others get their head around it

TO THE OP & ROY

Roy I seek your wisdom here but do you reckon there would be anything to be gained by going Shindengen MosFet? They are good deal pricier but if/when mine gives up the ghost then that was the route I was thinking of going down............... ...............very popular mod in the Ducati community

http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHINDENGEN-MOSFET-FH020AA-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-KIT-REPLACES-FH012AA-/380704480069

Apologies for the Off topic

John
 

 

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