Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)

[brider]

...on chain-drive bikes.

Felt like I needed to vent after a relaxing work-break walking around the parking lot looking at the various new cars/trucks. stumbled onto a guy who obviously missed the M/C parking area, it was a VERY new-looking Kaw Versys, with a chain that was bone-dry and waaaaay too lose. The chain plates actually had light surface rust on them.

It's just a peeve of mine, but I'll bet the bike is still in it's break-in period and before the owner takes it back in for it's 1k-mile tune-up or something like that. Owner was probably told it's an O-ring chain and doesn't need any maintenance (including adjusting it's slack).

I feel better now.

One curious design feature of this bike was it's exhaust location: It exited (2-into-1) behind the right footpeg, right under the rider's butt. That doesn't seem right, for some reason.

[fotoguzzi]

if it is still in breakin mileage it's hard to believe the chain would stretch that much. maybe once the rider loads the suspension the chain not as loose? I know mine "looks" loose when parked on the centerstand, the chain actually touches the CS and "looks" out of adjustment. I thought I had a lot of chain slap,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxkszWGICD8

was told buy the experts that's normal for a well adjusted chain.

[Ncdan]

No chain on a motorcycle period, for me.

[Rusnak_322]

Chain lube is great if your goal is to collect dust & dirt on your chain and fling crap onto your wheels.

100k+ miles using quality chains cleaned with WD-40 and never any issues. Plus I am partial to white wheels and clean bikes.

[brider]

100k+ miles using quality chains cleaned with WD-40 and never any issues. Plus I am partial to white wheels and clean bikes.

Maybe I'm out-of-touch and need to re-adjust my thinking on his. My experience has only been with dirt bikes, but the chain I looked at today looked just like the standard 520 o-ring chains I used to run on my bikes. I always cleaned and lubed them, figured that's why they sell Bel-Ray and PJ-1 chain lube. Didn't occur to me that I could rely on the internal factory lube, I figured the O-rings were a barrier, but not take-it-to-the-bank barrier, to dirt, so an external lube would be a good idea. The idea of O-rings in that environment continually sliding against the side plates comes to mind.

Don't manufacturers (of road bikes) recommend something OTHER than WD-40 for chain lube?

As far as slack, on a 10-inch-travel dirt bike the top-to-bottom slack was never more than 40 mm or so, but that had a lot to do with the distance between the swingarm pivot and the countershaft sprocket (very close). Maybe that distance is far greater on the bike I observed, requiring more slack if the rear axle/pivot/sprocket are waaay out of line.

What about that exhaust location?

[Perazzimx14]

Scott oiler on my DL650 for 15,000 miles and never had to adjust or clean the chain. Every 600 to 800 miles top up the reservoir with a few ounces of ATF and ride on. I recently sold the bike and the chain was cleaner than the day I put the Scott oiler on.


Continious oilers worjk a treat. Not only to the continuously lubricate the chain they countinally clean it as well. As the oil is added dirt sticks to it and eventially becomes to heavy to stick an is flung free from the schain and sprockets. Also if the oile is set up properly they are no dirtier than whatever chain lube you are currently using. 

Modern chains coupled with a continious oiler makes owning a chain drive bike a breezez and almost as maintnenace free as a shaft drive.

[Lannis]

We use the terminology "stretch" but no metal actually stretches as a chain wears ... it's the cumulative effect of the wear between 100 pin-to-bushing joints.   Only .001" wear on each one translates into 1/10" lengthening of the chain overall.

When you lube an older non-O-ring chain, the purpose is to allow chain lube to penetrate the plate-pin-bushing joints and keep those contact surfaces lubed; that's why soaking it in hot grease or hot chain-saw oil (very thick stuff) and letting it cool and drip dry is best for those.

For an O-ring or X-ring chain, the "lube" actually treats the ring seals themselves, to keep them pliable so that they can do their job of keeping the original lube inside the chain.   Scott-Oilers or similar continuous oilers are good ways to treat any chain.

A set of chains and sprockets should last 25,000 miles or more, then get changed at once.    When you compare, over 120,000 miles or more, the relative cost and hassle of dealing with changing rear drive oil, transmission seals, U-joint issues, carrier-bearing issues, spline-greasing issues, rear-drive seal issues (all the things that are discussed here), it's questionable whether a shaft drive really IS that much better than a continuously lubed chain, changed on a regular basis.

I don't often hear about those direct, objective cost and reliability comparisons, though.   It's generally "religious" type arguments ("I will only have a shaft drive because Man was meant to not have chains any more") and such.   I've had many of both and I think the pros and cons almost balance out ....

Lannis

[Bud]

     51,000 mile on my 1996 Honda Shadow Ace 1100 shaft with zero problems. I have changed the fluid maybe twice in 30,000 mi.

[Lannis]

     51,000 mile on my 1996 Honda Shadow Ace 1100 shaft with zero problems. I have changed the fluid maybe twice in 30,000 mi.

Absolutely, when a shaft drive works and lasts like you'd hope, they can be cheaper and less trouble than a chain.

But if you scan back JUST this WG list over the years and review the litany of issues that have happened to people (which I listed in my post as "changing rear drive oil, transmission seals, U-joint issues, carrier-bearing issues, spline-greasing issues, rear-drive seal issues", none of which happen to a chain), the average of the comparison comes way way down ....

Lannis

[Guzzistajohn]

It’s easy to diagnose a chain issue. It’s in plain sight. No surprises.

[fotoguzzi]

What Lannis said,,, and
"A chain drive system is preferred in almost all the super sports bikes because of the fact that the percentage of power loss in a chain drive mechanism is as little as almost 3%. Also, a chain drive system is capable enough to deal with high level torque produced in these machines, and almost all the dirt bikes and drag-focussed motorcycles feature a chain dive mechanism." "The power loss in shaft drive is really high, about 25%,"google

[Rough Edge racing]

 I agree with what Lannis says about chain lube... My Ducati has a Tsubaki O ring, the 79 Triumph a non o ring DID... I like chains because they are so simple and mechanical. The Ducati has a minimal original chain guard and the Triumph guard is missing... Yes the chain  flings crap around, but I never wash bikes so I just wipe off the stuff from time to time..A motorcycle is a machine ,and grease and oil messes are signs it has been maintained   

[Lcarlson]

After I sold my Ducati Diavel several years ago, I swore I’d never own another bike with chain drive. However, I recently relented. I’ve got to say, with a factory centerstand, it’s really not much trouble to lube an O-ring chain every 600 miles or so (the manufacturer-recommended minimum). On the recommendation of Jim Hamlin, l use a paraffin-based chain lube applied to a hot chain and allowed to set up overnight.  By morning it’s mostly dry and there’s no fling at all. And I doubt that I’ll have to adjust it much — if at all — between regular dealer service intervals. Chains aren’t so bad.

[brider]

I agree with what Lannis says about chain lube... My Ducati has a Tsubaki O ring, the 79 Triumph a non o ring DID... I like chains because they are so simple and mechanical. The Ducati has a minimal original chain guard and the Triumph guard is missing... Yes the chain  flings crap around, but I never wash bikes so I just wipe off the stuff from time to time..A motorcycle is a machine ,and grease and oil messes are signs it has been maintained   

To add to my original statements that started this thread: I have no beef against chains at all, in fact I have a LOT of experience from my 30+ years of dirt-biking. I was ALWAYS cleaning, oiling, and adjusting chains. But I have NEVER owned a street-bike with a chain, just happened that way. So when I admire street bikes at a show, rally, or in a parking lot, my dirt-biking habits come to the surface and I look at the chain/sprocket condition. I will admit now that my chain-slack calibrations may be skewed comparing apples-to-oranges (dirt bikes vs street), but my gut tells me that some street riders don't pay attention, and my suspicions are often confirmed when I hear a street rider moving slowly thru a parking lot and you can HEAR the chain. THAT was my original beef. I think looking at a street-bike chain with surface rust on the side plates LOOKS bad, if nothing else. Apologies to those who like a nice, clean chain; I prefer the look of grease!

[Old Jock]

If Guzzi had a chain drive option I'd have it (apart from these driving the gearbox through 90 degree contraptions some have made)

For me a chain is far better, mechanically simpler & easier to maintain albeit more frequently and as Lannis states more efficient.

UJs drive me nuts and can be very bad for your health if not maintained, bevel boxes are added complications and inefficient.

Additional unsprung weight to slow down the handling

I just don't really understand the logic, maybe 40 years ago possibly but now.

I've got an X ring on the Ducati 1098, hardly ever adjust it, clean it with paraffin & a rag (Kerosene in president's English?) then lightly lube the outside to stop all the external plates and pins rusting, takes maybe 15-20 minutes absolute tops

No mess, no muck flung everywhere as others allude to, in fact after I grease the UJs, the Guzzi is the better candidate to lowside me due to greased rear boot.

It's the fact I like Guzzis that means I have them DESPITE rather than because of the shaft drive.

As far as slack goes, it can vary quite a bit on manufacturer to manufacturer. When I take the Ducati for its annual roadworthiness, the inspector always tells me the chain requires tensioning, despite me having just checked that it's at the slack Ducati recommend.

[Perazzimx14]

Another plus of chains is the ability to easily change gear ratios to suite your riding style.

Using a continuous oiler many folk report getting 30 or 40K out of a chain. From my experience and at 15K on my bike if would have kept it I have no doubt the 30K would have been easily attainable. 

[Rough Edge racing]

 For you chain heads... This is the primary drive on the dual 650 Triumph engine land speed racer I built... All the chains are  #428 dual stand like used on Harley big twin primarys.The jackshaft between the engines is supported on a modified Subaru wheel hub. The clutch and 5 speed are 90's Harley Evo.The bike has been track tested several times at 145 MPH with no driveline problems. Next runs will hopefully be closer to 160 mph  .At over 7000 rpm the chains are beyond their design limit and not running in an oil bath results in short chain life...Building an oil tight primary is not practical, spray on chain lube is minimal at best and the track officials frown on leaking oil on the racing surface. There is a few motorcycle engine powered four wheel streamliners with chain drive..They are using a drip water feed to cool the chain and extend life.....Water cooled chain is next


               
 

[centauro]

I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.
The chain case enclosure keeps the chain clean, and lubricant stays inside, eliminating any flinging to rims, tires, and clothes.

Most Soviet era bikes had fully enclosed chains, my 1974 CZ 175 had  one, and I never needed to lube the chain; tension check was done by removing a round 1" cover and poking a finger in to feel for slack.
Some enterprenour British guy with common sense started to offer them custom made for any bike back in the mid '70s, and his efforts were met with shrugs and laughs.....
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Easy to add a tooth or subtract a tooth for a gearing change if desired. Try that with a HD belt or gear drive.

I can swap between an 8/37 rear drive and an 8/35 rear drive in about 30 minutes...

I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.
The chain case enclosure keeps the chain clean, and lubricant stays inside, eliminating any flinging to rims, tires, and clothes.

Most Soviet era bikes had fully enclosed chains, my 1974 CZ 175 had  one, and I never needed to lube the chain; tension check was done by removing a round 1" cover and poking a finger in to feel for slack.
Some enterprenour British guy with common sense started to offer them custom made for any bike back in the mid '70s, and his efforts were met with shrugs and laughs.....
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?

My MZ Saxon Country and Silver Star Classic both had enclosed chains. A few more mainstream bikes with that feature: Harley big-twin back in the early '80s and the Yamaha XV920RH/RJ.

[Lannis]

I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.
The chain case enclosure keeps the chain clean, and lubricant stays inside, eliminating any flinging to rims, tires, and clothes.

Most Soviet era bikes had fully enclosed chains, my 1974 CZ 175 had  one, and I never needed to lube the chain; tension check was done by removing a round 1" cover and poking a finger in to feel for slack.
Some enterprenour British guy with common sense started to offer them custom made for any bike back in the mid '70s, and his efforts were met with shrugs and laughs.....
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?

I've had BSA A10s with both enclosed and non-enclosed chains, and my beef with the enclosed was all the extra work you had to do to to bolt that three-piece thing in and out any time you needed to work in that area.   Maybe other designs (like the MZ ones with the rubber boots) work better as a practical thing.

Lannis

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I've had BSA A10s with both enclosed and non-enclosed chains, and my beef with the enclosed was all the extra work you had to do to to bolt that three-piece thing in and out any time you needed to work in that area.   Maybe other designs (like the MZ ones with the rubber boots) work better as a practical thing.

Lannis

On the MZ, the sprocket was on a carrier that stayed attached to the swingarm, the wheel simply slipped off the cush drive rubbers, very much like a small block Guzzi.

[brider]

Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?

I'll bet they did it years ago because chains were not of the O-ring variety, lubes were not yet as advanced for "fling-off" stickiness, so a chain that was properly lubed with lube-o' the day (my dad would often say to just use some good used motor oil, and I'll bet this was done a LOT with enclosed chains) would REALLY sling the oil off.

Nowadays, with O-ring and X-ring chains and better, stickier lube, chain enclosures are just an added expense and cost that isn't necessary.

[Lannis]

I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.

That's how "primary chains" work.   I have a bunch of old Brits with enclosed primary chains, and they are the least troublesome and most effective systems on the bike.    Always clean, always oily, they last a LONG time, and need very little maintenance.

I know a lot of people replace them with belt drives for "performance" purposes, but I've never chatted with anyone who had a better experience with belts than I've had with chains.   You run into problems with alternators overheating, etc when you take the oil out, and although I've heard of belts breaking, I've never heard of a triplex primary chain snapping in two .... (no LSR racers need apply!)

Lannis

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

FWIW, the MZ chains were lubed with moly grease. A non-o-ring/x-ring chain has less drag, especially important on low hp motorcycles.

[antmanbee]

No one has mentioned belt drives.
I have a Suzuki S40 650 thumper with a belt and it is trouble free and mess free.
The only down side compared to chains is the lack of readily available sprockets to change ratios.

[Perazzimx14]

I can swap between an 8/37 rear drive and an 8/35 rear drive in about 30 minutes...

On my DR650 I have at least 40 different ratios I can choose from with different sprockets that readily available.

Road riding/touring I run 15/42

Fire roads I run 14/42

Sidecar or tight woods riding I run 14/48

[kirb]

The KTM990 group I used to frequent had some guys never lubing the chain and replacing the countershaft sprocket and chain every 20k miles. I would believe it with modern o/x ring chains.

The KTM990 adv required quite a bit of slack due to suspension geometry. I would hear now and again to check my chain, but it would be normal once loaded.

I don't see much benefit to lubing other than to keep rust at bay. Modern chains are so much easier to live with and 20k replacement cycles is not that big of a deal.

[TimmyTheHog]

you are not the only one with that pet peeve.

Guzzi was my first shaft bike, and previously the two bikes I owned are all chains...both bikes has less than 50K miles...but they were well maintained/oiled that the chains/sprockets were all stock with minimum wears...the buyers were a "tad shocked"...

Now, on the other end of spectrum...my friend's triple which has less than 20K on it already went thru one chain/sprocket chain because he doesn't lube & adjust it!!!...freaking thing was clacking so bad that it also had light between the gears & chain...I would say he is lucky it didn't snap with the wheelies he pulls...

well, chain should not sound like the guzzi valve clash :P

[Rough Edge racing]

  Roller chains can take amazing abuse.....This is an interesting video of a long swingarm drag race bikechain in action , about 300 hp...These bikes have a compressed air shifter...

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZsWwQ072E

[Perazzimx14]

  Roller chains can take amazing abuse.....This is an interesting video of a long swingarm drag race bikechain in action , about 300 hp...These bikes have a compressed air shifter...

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZsWwQ072E

The Top Fuel bikes are easily pushing 3 times that HP but the roller chain on them isn't no 520. They are about 1-3/4" wide with 1/2" pins. The side plate looked like 1/4" steel.