Author Topic: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)  (Read 12613 times)

Offline Stevex

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2018, 01:03:01 PM »
I've got 3 bikes with chain drive, all O/X ring.
They get a Kerosene wash once a year to remove all crud.
Bi weekly clean with a dry rag, then lube with EP90.

Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2018, 07:47:07 AM »
Loved all my shaft drives, never had a problem with any of them.  No crawling around to do a chain lube in the rain after a long days ride in a hotel parking lot.  Much cooler technology too.

I remember being surprised when I first learned how inefficient the shaft drives were at transfer of energy.  Didn't make intuitive sense to me (not a physicist or engineer).  But now I see how simple the chain design is.  Proper inspection SHOULD reduce the risk of a catastrophic failure on a chain, some of the workings of the shaft drive are hidden from everyday view.

As a closeted WD40 cleaner, no regular luber guy, I read these threads waiting for evidence that the way I'm doing it wrong will cause a lessening of the 25k miles useful life of the chain/sprockets - haven't found that yet.
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Offline Bulldog9

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2018, 08:11:55 AM »
I wouldn't know what that is..... I've only owned shaft driven bikes. Yamaha xs1100, 750, FJR, Kawasaki Concours, BMW RT, and now Guzzi.... :bike-037:
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Offline luthier

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2018, 08:35:09 AM »
I sympathize with the OP. Nothing worse than seeing a  terribly maintained piece of machinery.  It's called vehicle abuse and should be an indictable offence. Dry chains should be considered nearly as serious as bald tyres. Wires hanging out from wherever should be reason enough to ground the machine. And dirty machines should be impounded and cleaned at the owners expense.
When I drove Taxis in a lifetime almost forgotten  you would be grounded for driving a dirty cab. The reasons are manifold and well founded as dirt indicates a maintenance free zone and thus a hazard to the public at large.
Where Guzzis get by is the secrecy that their drive train provides so in that case, if anything does go wrong the charge should be ten times greater because slack maintenance was concealed until it caused grievous risk to all concerned.
So make it next weekend boys, go out there with a can of grease and pull that driveline down because you know you should. It's a six pack job but afterwards you'll get that warm glow of satisfaction that it's done for another year. Now, back to that Tax return.

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2018, 08:35:09 AM »

Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2018, 08:37:39 AM »
Loved all my shaft drives, never had a problem with any of them.  No crawling around to do a chain lube in the rain after a long days ride in a hotel parking lot.  Much cooler technology too.



With an continuous oiler system this is all eliminated. At the end of the days ride simply glance at the oil reseveiour and top up if needed the oiling already been done.
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Offline brider

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2018, 07:40:17 AM »
As a closeted WD40 cleaner, no regular luber guy, I read these threads waiting for evidence that the way I'm doing it wrong will cause a lessening of the 25k miles useful life of the chain/sprockets - haven't found that yet.

I am not endorsing the Scott oiler (but not a detractor, either; I'd probably use one if I had a chain-drive bike), but they have a writeup on chains that is very good, and describes the need for lubing an O-ring chain:

https://www.scottoiler.com/motorcyclechainoilers/xmas/ScottoilerKnowledgeWorkshopv1.pdf

And this is not a rebuttal to Nic and his use of WD-40, because I've run into a LOT of people who rely on WD-40 for their bicycle AND motorcycle chains, but the fact is irrefutable that WD-40 does NOT leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain, and in the case of O-ring chains, that means lube where the O-rings need it. WD-40 rinses dirt and water away (which WOULD serve to help the O-rings), but leaves no lubricating film. A chain would arguably last longer if a dedicated lube were used.
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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2018, 10:54:55 AM »
Has anyone had any experience with the Tutoro chain oiler? Its operation is automatic, but mechanical instead of electrical or vacuum-driven. I'm considering buying one.

https://www.tutorochainoiler.com/

https://adventure-motorcycling.com/2014/08/18/tested-tutoro-chain-oiler-reviewed-on-bmw-650/

This thread has more or less persuaded me to give up manual oiling.

Moto
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 11:14:35 AM by Moto »

Offline Lannis

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2018, 11:57:41 AM »
...... but the fact is irrefutable that WD-40 does NOT leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain .....

I'm not sure that there's no refuting that statement ... but I'd go along with "WD40 is not sold as a chain lubricant, and being only about 5% lubricant by weight, is not ideal as the sole lubricant for a chain".

WD-40 rinses dirt and water away (which WOULD serve to help the O-rings), but leaves no lubricating film.

I disagree with that.   Again, it may not be optimal for a chain, but WD40 is NOT 100% solvent, and does in fact leave a lubricating film behind (which I've used for many many purposes over the years) when the solvent evaporates .....

Lannis
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Offline TimmyTheHog

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2018, 12:47:30 PM »
I'm not sure that there's no refuting that statement ... but I'd go along with "WD40 is not sold as a chain lubricant, and being only about 5% lubricant by weight, is not ideal as the sole lubricant for a chain".

I disagree with that.   Again, it may not be optimal for a chain, but WD40 is NOT 100% solvent, and does in fact leave a lubricating film behind (which I've used for many many purposes over the years) when the solvent evaporates .....

Lannis

WD40 is not a solvent nor a lubricant. It is a water displacement liquid that covers up the area with a coat of fluid and prevents rust from forming. It will serve as a lubricant for a short time.

But having a proper mixed chain lube/wax will ensure you have a better penetration and coating which LUBRICANT and PROTECT.

Again, use what satisfies you, but I will stick to what I know works.
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2018, 12:51:36 PM »
Has anyone had any experience with the Tutoro chain oiler? Its operation is automatic, but mechanical instead of electrical or vacuum-driven. I'm considering buying one.

Moto
I installed the Tutoro oiler on my RX3.  The oiler is pretty simple, relies on vibration to open a valve and let oil drip.  Be advised that they use a really thick oil...think chain saw oil.  I think that's a bad idea because that thick stuff will trap grit.  Nevertheless, I bought the unit because it's inexpensive (hey, I'm a Guzzi guy!) and I'm running a good quality O-ring chain. 

In the past I ran a ProOiler on my Ducati and Triumph.  IMHO it's a much better system but also twice the cost.  I used ATF and could easily go 20K miles before I saw much wear on the sprockets.

www.pro-oiler.net

As an aside, I think that rust prevention is the most important reason to lube a modern O-ring chain.  OP mentioned surface rust on the adjustment plates.  This tells me that the chain itself is probably suffering from rust, which will be fine enough to migrate past those O-rings.  Then the chain starts to go to hell without the owner knowing it.

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Offline not-fishing

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2018, 01:48:56 PM »
Absolutely, when a shaft drive works and lasts like you'd hope, they can be cheaper and less trouble than a chain.

But if you scan back JUST this WG list over the years and review the litany of issues that have happened to people (which I listed in my post as "changing rear drive oil, transmission seals, U-joint issues, carrier-bearing issues, spline-greasing issues, rear-drive seal issues", none of which happen to a chain), the average of the comparison comes way way down ....

Lannis

Curmudgeon's Response -----------

Yeah well on the last Honda I had the rear sprocket EXplod on a freeway onramp after about 5,000 miles (new chain & new rear sprocket 5,000 miles earlier).  I've only put about 30,000 miles on chain drive motorcycles and I won't go back from shafty. 

servicing the shaft, oil, grease, seals and gasket is not a problem to me

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2018, 02:23:40 PM »
I installed the Tutoro oiler on my RX3.  The oiler is pretty simple, relies on vibration to open a valve and let oil drip.  Be advised that they use a really thick oil...think chain saw oil.  I think that's a bad idea because that thick stuff will trap grit.  Nevertheless, I bought the unit because it's inexpensive (hey, I'm a Guzzi guy!) and I'm running a good quality O-ring chain. 

In the past I ran a ProOiler on my Ducati and Triumph.  IMHO it's a much better system but also twice the cost.  I used ATF and could easily go 20K miles before I saw much wear on the sprockets.

www.pro-oiler.net
...
Peter Y.

Thanks! The ProOiler seems like a better functional design than any other I've seen (assuming it is reliable).  I don't think I'll have enough room on my bike to mount all its components, though.

I may go with the Tutoro to save space and avoid that electronic controller on my triple tree, and in the expectation of using hydraulic mineral oil rather than their proprietary one.

Moto

Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2018, 02:45:46 PM »
There are a couple of choices that use electronic pumps like the Scottoiler E-Oiler but I've never used them nor would I choose them.

Until gravity ceases to exist or the intake on a running motor is no longer in vacuum I'll stick with the traditional vacuum operated system.

Having the ability to adjust the flow rate on the fly while novel is really unnecessary. Set the drip rate to 1 drip every 45 to 60 seconds and you're done.
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2018, 03:57:33 PM »
in the expectation of using hydraulic mineral oil rather than their proprietary one.

Moto

I think you will find that thinner oil will give you excessive flow.  Try it, nothing to lose.  The vibration valving is not like a petcock.  There is some flow adjustment but they designed this with really thick oil in mind.
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Offline Roebling3

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2018, 04:28:20 PM »
The very best thing about chain drive, other than lightness and variable ratios' is when they fail it's an easy fix. If you're nearly in the middle of no where you can get replacement parts at most any motorcycle shop. If you don't mind using a clip to get home and have the correct tools. Shaft drive problems can be truly awful and damned expensive, in the 'field'. Heck, having to overnight for 3 days waiting for air freight can be fun, but always expensive.  R3~

Moto

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2018, 05:37:32 PM »
I think you will find that thinner oil will give you excessive flow.  Try it, nothing to lose.  The vibration valving is not like a petcock.  There is some flow adjustment but they designed this with really thick oil in mind.

Understood. Tutoro gives some weight recommendations for hydraulic mineral oil on one of their pages. It turns out there is a wide range of weights available. I'll see how it goes.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 05:38:53 PM by Moto »

Offline brider

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2018, 08:45:47 PM »
... and does in fact leave a lubricating film behind (which I've used for many many purposes over the years) when the solvent evaporates .....
Lannis

Yeah, I use it as a lubricant, too, but note that my statement said "... does not leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain..."

Should be re-phrased as "...of sufficient mechanical strength for use on a motorcycle or bicycle chain." (Gonna catch hell now from the bicycle crowd. I won't engage.)
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Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2018, 05:06:30 AM »
Yeah, I use it as a lubricant, too, but note that my statement said "... does not leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain..."

Should be re-phrased as "...of sufficient mechanical strength for use on a motorcycle or bicycle chain." (Gonna catch hell now from the bicycle crowd. I won't engage.)
This is getting to the crux of it - to my understanding, all that is required for an x chain is to keep the outer surface reasonably clean and water repellent so that the already existing lubricant inside the chain remains intact and functional. It's not a matter of mechanical strength but of having that repellent film remain in place. So the question would be more like, how quickly does that film evaporate or wear off.  To my mind, the test for that would be whether there is any rust.  If there's never any rust, the film is there.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it (for now).  Cheers!
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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2018, 06:17:38 AM »
 
Quote
Yeah well on the last Honda I had the rear sprocket EXplod on a freeway onramp after about 5,000 miles (new chain & new rear sprocket 5,000 miles earlier).  I've only put about 30,000 miles on chain drive motorcycles and I won't go back from shafty.

  Wow, I never heard a story like that.....

  WD-40 for chain lube? 

Offline brider

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2018, 06:50:39 AM »
This is getting to the crux of it - to my understanding, all that is required for an x chain is to keep the outer surface reasonably clean and water repellent so that the already existing lubricant inside the chain remains intact and functional.

This is true, but there's more to it than that, and I encourage you to click on the link to the Scottoiler website I posted a few posts back and read. The O-rings are in constant shearing contact with the side plates, at high frequency, beyond the physical lubricating properties of WD-40.

However, I will concede that we all do "what works for us", me included, and I get irritated when my wife tells me to load the dishwasher "her" way because "my" way is wrong.

I just like to understand and discuss mechanical things down to the contact surfaces. Friction/tire pressure/contact patch size is another topic that can NEVER come to a consensus.
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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2018, 07:26:51 AM »
If the chain drive system is superior why does all vehicles not have that system, just bigger to handle the weight,  Simple answer, it's not but each to his own, that's what makes the world go round. Ride safe my friends:)

Offline Lannis

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2018, 08:39:49 AM »
If the chain drive system is superior why does all vehicles not have that system, just bigger to handle the weight,  Simple answer .....

Yes, thank goodness, there is a simple answer, and that is that the usual transverse crankshaft motorcycle already has the crankshaft lined up for a chain drive and thus no need for power-wasting bevel gears, that there is only one rear wheel to drive and thus no need for a differential, and that lightness and simplicity is much more important in a motorcycle than it is in a car, which is already porky due to the creature-comfort items aboard.

There really are good reasons for them (ask a race-bike or dirt-bike designer); it's not just "personal preference", although (as we see) some folks manage to turn chain-vs-shaft into a sort of cult schism ....  :shocked:

Lannis
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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2018, 11:00:47 AM »
Yes, every situation needs its own solution.

My recently acquired 18 hp motorcycle came with a 530 size chain (!), non o-ring.

After reading a bit on the effects of o-rings on low horsepower motors, I think I'll stick with the original equipment, plus a chain oiler. Tutoro, by the way, was responsive to a question, and even sent photos of caliper measurements for an idea I proposed. So I'll probably go with them.

There seems to be one company out there for each patentable idea about turning an oiler on and off automatically: electrical, vacuum, inertia (Tutoro), even wind pressure (OSCO?). If you'd like your own oiler company, here is my idea: make it start oiling when the rider sits on the seat. Must be patentable, judging from the others.

The ProOiler mentioned earlier, though, is in a completely different category: It meters oil with distance traveled instead of time running, which is better in theory. If they would only have spent some time on making their product more compact and aesthetically acceptable I would have bought it. But at my age I recognize that the only beautiful things I can have must be purchased! So the Tutoro wins.

Moto
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 11:08:42 AM by Moto »

Offline not-fishing

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2018, 12:09:08 PM »
 
  Wow, I never heard a story like that.....

  WD-40 for chain lube?

Nope, the right lube,

Jacwal denselube chainring ---- It was the super-duper-newfangled Nylon (I think) chainring--- made by the same people who gave you this fairing:



I guess the little Honda 400F had to much torque for it.  (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4078445.pdf)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 12:19:22 PM by not-fishing »
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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2018, 12:17:27 PM »
 Into the 1940's chain final drive was still state of the art for heavy duty slower moving trucks..

           


         
Quote
Nope, the right lube,

Jacwal densilube chainring ---- It was the super-duper-newfangled Nylon (I think) chainring--- made by the same people who gave you this fairing:



I guess the little Honda 400F had to much torque for it.

 Interesting, the Japanese must have failed to notice the late 60's  early 70's nylon faced sprocket cam drive failures on US V8 engines.. The cam drives were HyVo chains but it was still a fail...
 I like chain drive,it's so simple and primitive...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 12:25:11 PM by Rough Edge racing »

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2018, 03:18:24 PM »
Yes, thank goodness, there is a simple answer, and that is that the usual transverse crankshaft motorcycle already has the crankshaft lined up for a chain drive and thus no need for power-wasting bevel gears, that there is only one rear wheel to drive and thus no need for a differential, and that lightness and simplicity is much more important in a motorcycle than it is in a car, which is already porky due to the creature-comfort items aboard.

There really are good reasons for them (ask a race-bike or dirt-bike designer); it's not just "personal preference", although (as we see) some folks manage to turn chain-vs-shaft into a sort of cult schism ....  :shocked:

Lannis
A race bike or dirt bike is not even in the same conversation as pleasure, Touring or sport touring bike. In that application if someone wants a greasy noisy chain that must be adjusted and replaced by all means go for it, Personally I simply can't see anyone wanting a chain in that application. As I said it's a personal preference. I'll stick to my shaft driven 1400.

Offline Lannis

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2018, 07:37:51 PM »
A race bike or dirt bike is not even in the same conversation as pleasure, Touring or sport touring bike. In that application if someone wants a greasy noisy chain that must be adjusted and replaced by all means go for it, Personally I simply can't see anyone wanting a chain in that application. As I said it's a personal preference. I'll stick to my shaft driven 1400.

You asked why, if chains are so great, don't ALL vehicles have that system.   I was explaining why some do and some don't, instead of all of them using the same system.

And they ARE in the same conversation (we're having it right now!).   If lightness and simplicity and ease of maintenance are good things for racing and off-road, then they are, to a certain degree, good for road bikes - they're not completely "out of the picture" obviously because some of the nicest and most expensive sport-touring and touring bikes have chains ...

Lannis
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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2018, 08:35:07 PM »
You asked why, if chains are so great, don't ALL vehicles have that system.   I was explaining why some do and some don't, instead of all of them using the same system.

And they ARE in the same conversation (we're having it right now!).   If lightness and simplicity and ease of maintenance are good things for racing and off-road, then they are, to a certain degree, good for road bikes - they're not completely "out of the picture" obviously because some of the nicest and most expensive sport-touring and touring bikes have chains ...

Lannis
Not trying to continue a friendly and respectful disagreement but there is no such thing as a Touring motorcycle that anyone serious about a a touring bike would pay good money for, that is chain driven. Harley, or any of the metric tourers, BMW or Guzzi has a TOURING BIKE with a chain so I'll have to call BS on that claim, my friend:)

Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2018, 08:42:56 PM »
This is true, but there's more to it than that, and I encourage you to click on the link to the Scottoiler website I posted a few posts back and read. The O-rings are in constant shearing contact with the side plates, at high frequency, beyond the physical lubricating properties of WD-40.

However, I will concede that we all do "what works for us", me included, and I get irritated when my wife tells me to load the dishwasher "her" way because "my" way is wrong.

I just like to understand and discuss mechanical things down to the contact surfaces. Friction/tire pressure/contact patch size is another topic that can NEVER come to a consensus.
Not irritated in the least - thanks for the info, I will read, digest as best I can, and hopefully come up with a reasonable plan of action.  I MAY (no guarantees) even consider changing my behavior.  I MAY.
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Offline davevv

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Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2018, 09:53:10 PM »
Chain on this one also.

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."--Wyatt Earp
'94 BMW R1100RS, '20 BMW G310GS, 22 BMW F750GS

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