Author Topic: Rotella  (Read 7955 times)

Offline Arizona Wayne

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
Re: Rotella
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2017, 12:06:13 AM »
I'm stunned so many here rely on oil made for low revving  diesel motors and yet think I'm wrong in using car/truck oils like have been used forever for Guzzi motors.  To be safe I change my motor oil more often than what the car oil brands recommend for their oils.  So far in over 30 years of doing this I have had no MC motors die prematurely as some of you suggest.  I keep my bikes a lot longer than some of you so if I make a mistake I'll find out and will share the results here.  :tongue:

When I took my new `09 400 MP3 scooter to a dealer under warranty for it's 800 mile inspection, they put in dino oil just like I do even tho Piaggio recommends 10W-60 synthetic oil. They confirmed that what I do is not stupid.  That was years ago and I have yet had to adjust the valves on that motor.  So believe what you want.

I'm not suggesting you run dino oil in your newer, more powerfull Guzzis, but don't be so cocky you always know what's best.  :kiss:

Offline ITSec

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3040
  • Location: Southwestern US
Re: Rotella
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2017, 01:33:59 AM »
ITSec, I understand your point, but I think it's based on at least a couple of false premises.  If you want high ZDDP, you have to look at the spec sheet and see how much is there.  Relying on a Cx diesel spec doesn't tell you how much is there.  If you want a certain dynamic friction window (JASO MA, for example), you have to either look for the rating you want on the bottle or ask the blender/marketer if the product meets that spec.  One would never guess, for example, that Red Line's automotive 0W20 meets JASO MA dynamic friction specs, but it does.  :-)

Do current (or recent) MG cam followers require super-high ZDDP levels to stay together?  Do they require relatively high dynamic viscosity to stay together?

I don't think I relied on any false premises, since I didn't say anything about what should or should not be in the oil other than when changes occur it's important to understand what has changed.

The question was asked about why diesel oil, and the answer is that many motorcyclists have been quite satisfied by using such an oil, especially since most oil for diesel engines does not have all the anti-friction additives that adversely affect wet clutches. In addition, some diesel oils supply higher levels of certain content that some people see as desirable - zinc and such among them. I've never seen damage to an engine from a lack of zinc or phosphorus, but I know enough to understand there can be situations where it can occur. Do I go looking for it? Nope. Do I listen when others express concern about the issue and have good reason? You bet.

Rotella's two main formulations (15w40 standard, 5w40 synthetic) have been a well-known quantity in the motorcyclists' playbook for many years. Shell has not openly published many of the specs the oil meets, but if asked they have been reasonably forthcoming with the info - at least if you ask nicely.

As has been noted in this and other threads, each of these things is just a part of the puzzle and can't be taken in isolation. An oil with the correct JASO spec and the wrong weight won't be good for my Norge; an oil with the correct weight and JASO spec but the wrong additives wouldn't have been good for my V-Strom, and so on. Information is our best ally, and an informed and educated consumer is much, much more likely to have a machine that lasts longer and is more trouble-free.
ITSecurity
2012 Griso 8v SE - Tenni Green
2013 Stelvio NTX - Copper
2008 Norge GT - Silver

I am but mad north-northwest!
When the wind is southerly, I can tell a hawk from a handsaw...

Offline Arizona Wayne

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
Re: Rotella
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2017, 01:46:29 AM »
For years some have claimed that running a car oil in a MC will make your wet clutch slip on Jap. motors that combine the same oil for both.  For years I have used dino car 10W-40 or 20W-50 oil in MC motors w/wet clutches and have never had a clutch slip.  Don't automatically believe everything you read.  :wink:
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 01:47:21 AM by Arizona Wayne »

Offline kingoffleece

  • SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4014
  • Rated 5 STARS Motorcycle Consumer News
  • Location: Valley of the Sun
Re: Rotella
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2017, 05:47:16 AM »
To further the discussion that's been your experience and for that sample size it's what it is.
When I was associated with a Triumph shop we saw two clutches that slipped excessively due to car oil being used.  Now why those did when other customers did not have that experience is unknown to me.

I've also seen a clutch rebuilt at my friends shop in New England-that sample size is one, for the same oil related reason.  One reasonable conclusion from this small sample is that it's possible to have clutch slip.  Why?  Unknown.  However, having had the lead tech experience even one failure means that the service dept. has a reasonable duty to at least inform a customer that a slip situation is possible.  There have been no insistences of clutch slip using M/C rated oils.

There may be other conclusions to be had.
SplitWeight(tm) seat covers. A King of Fleece LLC product.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Rotella
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2017, 05:47:16 AM »

Offline timonbik

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • Posts: 378
  • Location: ONTARIO, CANADA
Re: Rotella
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2017, 07:31:43 AM »
I PERSONALLY have experienced clutch issues on my personal bikes while using car oil, the most recent on my Ducati Multistrada 620 (wet clutch) and Shell T6 Rotella synthetic.  I had read in numerous blogs about riders using this oil in wet clutch M/C applications.  I has some on hand for my diesel pick up so thought I would give it a try.  My silky smooth clutch immediately became grabby.  I kept it in for about 1000km but it remained grabby/notchy.  Changed back to M/C specific  synthetic oil, Mobil 1 V twin, and my silky smooth clutch returned and remained good for 40,000km and was still good upon sale of the bike,
The other instance was in the 1980's on my Kawasaki KZ1000 and Castrol GTX dino oil.  Clutch started to slip under hard acceleration.  Changed back to Castrol Grand Prix and clutch was fine. 

I'm as cheap as they come, but will stick with M/C specific oils, especially synthetic on bikes with a WET CLUTCH.
Cheers, Tim
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 07:38:20 AM by timonbik »
2008 BREVA 750
2020 V85TT ADV rosso
2016 APRILIA SHIVER 750
2013 VICTORY JUDGE CUSTOM
2013 VICTORY XR CLASSIC
2006 VICTORY V92TC
2006 DUCATI MULTISTRADA 620 (IN DUCATI HEAVEN)

Offline Vagrant

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Gainesville, Ga or Green Valley Az.
Re: Rotella
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2017, 09:52:44 AM »
I bought a jug of T6 5/40 at Wally world yesterday. it now says Motorcycle 2 on the back so it meets the latest specs. $21.36 a gallon.
HE IS FREE WHO LIVES AS HE CHOOSES
2016 V7II, 2017 V7-III Blue special, 2022 V85 the fast red one! 2016 650 Versys
L-196, L-197

Offline Arizona Wayne

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
Re: Rotella
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2017, 09:26:47 PM »
To further the discussion that's been your experience and for that sample size it's what it is.
When I was associated with a Triumph shop we saw two clutches that slipped excessively due to car oil being used.  Now why those did when other customers did not have that experience is unknown to me.

I've also seen a clutch rebuilt at my friends shop in New England-that sample size is one, for the same oil related reason.  One reasonable conclusion from this small sample is that it's possible to have clutch slip.  Why?  Unknown.  However, having had the lead tech experience even one failure means that the service dept. has a reasonable duty to at least inform a customer that a slip situation is possible.  There have been no insistences of clutch slip using M/C rated oils.

There may be other conclusions to be had.



Maybe car/truck dino wet MC clutch slippage comes down to the ingredients in X brand specific oil.   I use Walmart oil mostly in all my vehicles.  I also know WM oil isn't always the same name brand as they buy from the brand that gives them the best price @ X buying time.  But they do require the oil they  buy has to be good for turbocharged motors too.

Offline bulwnkl

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Rotella
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2017, 10:17:36 PM »
I don't think I relied on any false premises, since I didn't say anything about what should or should not be in the oil other than when changes occur it's important to understand what has changed.

The question was asked about why diesel oil, and the answer is that many motorcyclists have been quite satisfied by using such an oil, especially since most oil for diesel engines does not have all the anti-friction additives that adversely affect wet clutches.

The first or perhaps primary false premise I keyed on was this:
Quote
First, the diesel spec matters if there is a change to any additives to increase slip

It reads to me like you essentially repeated that premise again, above.  AFAIK, dynamic frictional characteristics (the 'slipperiness' that can be an issue for wet clutch bikes) are not part of the Cx spec series.  Even if a person is accustomed to a limited number of HDEOs being qualified, or at least demonstrated 'good enough' in actual use, for JASO MA, I believe the Cx spec does not include anything about that.  Thus, the notion that a Cx rated oil is within the dynamic friction parameters one may want is coincidental, not consequential of the spec, and so tying new Cx specs to dynamic friction changes is a false premise.

The second part I sort of keyed on was the implication that old-design engines require 'old' anti-wear chemistry.  I disagree with that, even if certain things are done extremely commonly that may make it appear true.

I recognize that lubes are MUCH more about peace of mind, trust, and assumption for essentially all of us than they are about informed choice and protection, because there simply isn't hardly any information publicly (and easily/no-cost) available about either individual oils' properties OR the things a vehicle supplier has tested and found necessary.

As an aside regarding most 10w60 being
Quote
feedstock-based double-ester synthetic (i.e., natural gas cracked to create base molecules, then put back together in a boutique design)
Esters are not made from 'feedstock' or natural gas, they're made by reacting alcohols with acids.  :-)  I'm guessing you're thinking of PAOs, but maybe you're thinking of PAGs?

Offline rocker59

  • Global Moderator
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24010
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
Re: Rotella
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2017, 08:00:34 AM »
I'm stunned so many here rely on oil made for low revving  diesel motors 

One of the main reasons is the elevated ZDDP in diesel oil.  However, all one has to do is look at the Mobil-1 website to see that it's not got near the ZDDP of V-Twin.

If someone is running a Hydro motor and wants to run the spec'd 5w-40, then Mobil-1 Diesel Truck is a good option.  For Guzzis which have solid lifters, the V-twin is a much better choice.

Michael T.
Aux Arcs de Akansea
2004 California EV Touring II
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Offline ITSec

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3040
  • Location: Southwestern US
Re: Rotella
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2017, 12:59:43 PM »
It reads to me like you essentially repeated that premise again, above.  AFAIK, dynamic frictional characteristics (the 'slipperiness' that can be an issue for wet clutch bikes) are not part of the Cx spec series.  Even if a person is accustomed to a limited number of HDEOs being qualified, or at least demonstrated 'good enough' in actual use, for JASO MA, I believe the Cx spec does not include anything about that.  Thus, the notion that a Cx rated oil is within the dynamic friction parameters one may want is coincidental, not consequential of the spec, and so tying new Cx specs to dynamic friction changes is a false premise.

The second part I sort of keyed on was the implication that old-design engines require 'old' anti-wear chemistry.  I disagree with that, even if certain things are done extremely commonly that may make it appear true.

I recognize that lubes are MUCH more about peace of mind, trust, and assumption for essentially all of us than they are about informed choice and protection, because there simply isn't hardly any information publicly (and easily/no-cost) available about either individual oils' properties OR the things a vehicle supplier has tested and found necessary.

As an aside regarding most 10w60 being Esters are not made from 'feedstock' or natural gas, they're made by reacting alcohols with acids.  :-)  I'm guessing you're thinking of PAOs, but maybe you're thinking of PAGs?

We're speaking past each other, in part because 'diesel spec can be a specific specification or can be read as diesel versus gasoline. Let me clarify.

When I was talking about the 'diesel spec', I was reading the question from the original poster a bit differently from your reading. I was not as much interested in CX as a spec as I was in the changes to what the spec required and what the oil contains. As you point out, the diesel specification CX itself is not terribly relevant; more relevant is whether any changes to the specification or the maker's formulation affect the suitability for our purpose. If the specification itself is the cause for those changes, then we need to understand it - if the spec is not the cause but is coincidental with a formulation change that may be of interest, then it's more a matter of knowing about that change and how to use the labeling to identify 'desirable' versus 'undesirable' formulations, especially when both may be on the shelf for a bit.

I was not suggesting that an old-school formulation was required for old engines, but rather that the new formulation may - or may not - be suitable. They are usually backwards compatible, but not always. If they were, Ford would not have issued the advisory they did (that was cited early in this discussion). Those with older engines that were designed with specific requirements in mind may wish to educate themselves about whether these needs are met with new lubricant formulations so they can make an educated choice.

As for the details or organic chemistry and fractioning, I may well have mis-spoken. The key point there is simply that there are some 'synthetic' oils that are created from oil feedstock, and others that are made using other base materials. If you think oil threads here get messy, just read the lengthy disputes over what a 'synthetic' truly is on some other boards!
ITSecurity
2012 Griso 8v SE - Tenni Green
2013 Stelvio NTX - Copper
2008 Norge GT - Silver

I am but mad north-northwest!
When the wind is southerly, I can tell a hawk from a handsaw...

Offline bulwnkl

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Rotella
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2017, 10:18:34 PM »
If you think oil threads here get messy, just read the lengthy disputes over what a 'synthetic' truly is on some other boards!

At one time, I found some of those slightly amusing, but now I just skip past the whole thing.

I see where you were coming from on the spec thing.
 :boozing:
(that's the closest I saw to a 'cheers' type of emoticon)

Offline BRIO

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
Re: Rotella
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2017, 06:45:01 PM »
I just bought two unopened 4L bottles of motorex 10w-60 on craigslist for $65 shipped. I think that is a better way to save money than to buy something that you think might be ok. Granted I was lucky but It gives you something to do while you're having that first cup of coffee in the morning. The other day I skimmed though a white paper about 40 pages deep on the subject. I think it's safe to say that no one here knows enough about engine oil and the engineering/metallurgy of our engines to guarantee a long service life using non approved oils. If you care about the longevity of you Guzzi just pay the extra $20 or do the ebay/craigslist thing.

PS:Discussing oil on a message board is like texting your way out of and argument with your wife. It never ends.

Offline Lannis

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 26507
  • Location: Central Virginia
Re: Rotella
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2017, 06:57:09 PM »

 I think it's safe to say that no one here knows enough about engine oil and the engineering/metallurgy of our engines to guarantee a long service life using non approved oils. If you care about the longevity of you Guzzi just pay the extra $20 or do the ebay/craigslist thing.


Well, certainly, but that's not going to stop anyone from a little recreational assertive chin-thrusting about how they use whatever they want and THEIR bike hasn't blown up yet, so THERE!

PS:Discussing oil on a message board is like texting your way out of and argument with your wife. It never ends.

Very true.   It's more like wrestling with a pig in a mud wallow.   You find that you're not making any progress, that you are getting extremely muddy, and worst of all, the pig LIKES it ....

Lannis
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 07:38:22 PM by Lannis »
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline kingoffleece

  • SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4014
  • Rated 5 STARS Motorcycle Consumer News
  • Location: Valley of the Sun
Re: Rotella
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2017, 07:28:12 PM »
Or, get in a fight with a skunk and, win or lose, either way you end up stinking.
SplitWeight(tm) seat covers. A King of Fleece LLC product.

Offline Lannis

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 26507
  • Location: Central Virginia
Re: Rotella
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2017, 07:43:27 PM »
Or, get in a fight with a skunk and, win or lose, either way you end up stinking.

Always.   Oil threads and Car-Tire-On-Bike threads turn into skunk fights for some unknown reason, every time, no exceptions.

Threads about leather vs textile gear, helmet threads, boot threads, Wildroot vs. Brylcreem, Skynyrd vs ZZ Top, and other critical, cutting edge, relevant topics, none of THOSE threads turn rambunctious.   It's an insoluble mystery of nature.

Lannis
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 07:46:01 PM by Lannis »
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline kingoffleece

  • SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4014
  • Rated 5 STARS Motorcycle Consumer News
  • Location: Valley of the Sun
Re: Rotella
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2017, 02:19:43 AM »
Wildroot-ha! Made just down the street from me long ago.
SplitWeight(tm) seat covers. A King of Fleece LLC product.

Offline Lannis

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 26507
  • Location: Central Virginia
Re: Rotella
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2017, 09:08:34 AM »
Wildroot-ha! Made just down the street from me long ago.

I got more of that stuff (along with Vitalis) put on my head when my Mom was getting me ready for elementary school ... certainly appropriate to note it in an Oil Thread!   

My Dad was a sailor, and HE used "butch wax" to make sure his highly motivated flat-top cut stayed groomed and squared away.

Gee, we were a greasy bunch back then.   Now we do everything we can to NOT be greasy and oily ...

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline PJPR01

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3936
  • Norge, Scura, Griso
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Rotella
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2017, 09:21:51 AM »
Do you guys spread Rotella on your toast in the morning...oh wait a minute...that's Nutella!  I knew I was doing something wrong today!  :)

I wonder how many grades of Nutella there are on the market - chocolate, pistacchio, perhaps there is a proper viscosity for the Guzzi too!
Paul R
2021 Honda Goldwing Bagger Manual Cement Gray
2015 Red/Black Griso
2008 Silver Norge
2002 V11 Scura

Offline Dilliw

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3674
Re: Rotella
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2017, 09:38:23 AM »
Oil threads are always fun  :evil:

The old Rotella T6 is a choice for the Guzzi Hydro because of the 5W40 weight.  That weight is "compulsory" for the Hydo and that the old T6 has good specs, even better reviews over at Bob's, is cheap and is easy to find (Wally World) are all added bonuses.

It's going to be wait and see on the new formulation, but I understand that they are keeping the 5W40 weight in the range.  If so, and given that the weight is the attraction for the hydro, then I'm 99% sure I'll keep using it for my EV.

I use T6 only in my hydro EV mainly because of the weight.  Griso gets Liqui Molly 10w60 mainly because of the weight.  I see an oil splatter pattern developing....

George Westbury
Austin, TX
2003 EVT "The Tank"
2011 Griso SE

L-824 and L-825

Offline rocker59

  • Global Moderator
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24010
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
Re: Rotella
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2017, 09:41:45 AM »

I'm a Dapper Dan man, myself...
Michael T.
Aux Arcs de Akansea
2004 California EV Touring II
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Lannis

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 26507
  • Location: Central Virginia
Re: Rotella
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2017, 10:18:52 AM »
Do you guys spread Rotella on your toast in the morning...oh wait a minute...that's Nutella!  I knew I was doing something wrong today!  :)

I wonder how many grades of Nutella there are on the market - chocolate, pistacchio, perhaps there is a proper viscosity for the Guzzi too!

I bought a jar of that Nutella once, but it's so oily and heavy and sweet I was ascared to eat much of it, figured maybe a wad of it would stick in my aorta and that would be THAT ....

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline PJPR01

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3936
  • Norge, Scura, Griso
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Rotella
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2017, 10:45:46 AM »
A thin layer is all you need - definitely not a clump!  Toast up some sourdough, a little light coating of butter and a top layer of Nutella, along with the morning coffee and you are good to ride at least until noon!  Almost as good as spreading Dulce de leche on!
Paul R
2021 Honda Goldwing Bagger Manual Cement Gray
2015 Red/Black Griso
2008 Silver Norge
2002 V11 Scura

Offline Lannis

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 26507
  • Location: Central Virginia
Re: Rotella
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2017, 11:16:56 AM »
A thin layer is all you need - definitely not a clump!  Toast up some sourdough, a little light coating of butter and a top layer of Nutella, along with the morning coffee and you are good to ride at least until noon!  Almost as good as spreading Dulce de leche on!

Maybe I was overdoing it.   I was using it like peanut butter, since it looked so much like it.

I can see that I should have been using it like Marmite instead.   I KNOW how to do that!

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline Arizona Wayne

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
Re: Rotella
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2017, 01:42:55 PM »
Brylcream.......a little dab'll do ya.  Use more only if you dare.  :wink:
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 01:50:01 PM by Arizona Wayne »

Online Ncdan

  • Global Moderator
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5878
Re: Rotella
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2017, 03:32:33 PM »
I'm a Dapper Dan man, myself...
Lol, love that movie

 

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here