Author Topic: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley  (Read 15444 times)

Offline dxhall

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2018, 06:57:45 PM »
Let us know if anyone in your area will take this job on.  Tell them that, with the comprehensive shop manual, it will be a piece of cake.

From the manual:

With the engine without the rocker arms, fit a feeler
gauge on the left (Induction Control ducket) cylinder
discharge command points using the tool cod. 69
90 78 50 as indicated in the Fig. 11-47.
The upper timing command pulleys must be without
the inner drive gears as indicated in the Fig. 11-47.
The drive belts must be stretched correctly.

They'll spend half of the flat-rate time looking for the control ducket.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 06:59:53 PM by dxhall »

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2018, 08:07:00 PM »
Thanks for this thread, John. You are beginning to convince me to hire a professional when Joe's package arrives. Not for the faint of heart.

FWIW I paid about 6 hrs labor to have Caruso steel gears (two) and Daes oil pump installed, at a time when I was very busy and couldn't take on projects.  I'm estimating that number because the actual total labor charge was 8.5 hrs, but also included changing fork seals.  This was in 2013 and the shop owners have now moved on to a different motorcycle business.

I probably removed the fairing before delivering the bike for the work.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 08:11:13 PM by Tusayan »

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2018, 04:11:21 AM »
'ey John, where did you buy your belts from and how much?  It's been awhile since I last check on availability and price.

Hi Tom

I'm in the UK for starters, but I've just got this bike and the seller had just replaced the belts, the bike has done zero miles since so I was thinking fo just reusing the belts after having marked the pulley points on the cam and crank.

If I need new belts I can either get them from Gutsi Bits here in the UK or Stein Dinse in Germany

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=30055300&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1

Both seem to want around 25 Euro/GBP for them (a snip compared to what I pay for Ducati belts for the 1098)

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2018, 04:25:10 AM »
Thanks for this thread, John. You are beginning to convince me to hire a professional when Joe's package arrives. Not for the faint of heart.

I don't think it's overly difficult (so far) but if you can get a shop with a decent hourly rate to do it for 6-7 hours time that's a good deal as mentioned by Tuyasan

My thing about getting this sort of stuff done is there are very few mechanics I know that I would trust to do this and certainly NEVER some unknown shop. Lost count of the amount of shoddy workmanship I've seen done over the years even by trusted shops............it s not the shop it's the mechanic.

So I plod along like some demented tortoise taking weeks to do a job a shop would do in hours, but if it goes BOOM then it's my fault and strangely that makes me feel better, knowing that I did my best and was very careful and probably could not have done it any more meticulously.

I also think people tend to panic at the thought of the valve timing getting out of whack. Well with very good reason, you should be apprehensive, but if that just makes you go slowly and work out your steps, then its not such a terrifying job at all.

Besides how do you think a shop is going to do it? Will they have the cam locking and belt stretching tools? I wouldn't bet on it & I wouldn't bet on them telling you how they did it either.

Unfortunately I have neither access to Chuck or Pete or Tom who I could trust, so I just have to plough my own furrow as best as I can.

John

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2018, 04:25:10 AM »

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2018, 06:06:50 AM »
Could I get a copy of that drawing. I either need to change the belts or sell the bike :)

If you can read a .dxf file, I have all the tools drawn to scale.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2018, 01:19:52 PM »
Hi Tom

I'm in the UK for starters, but I've just got this bike and the seller had just replaced the belts, the bike has done zero miles since so I was thinking fo just reusing the belts after having marked the pulley points on the cam and crank.

If I need new belts I can either get them from Gutsi Bits here in the UK or Stein Dinse in Germany

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=30055300&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1

Both seem to want around 25 Euro/GBP for them (a snip compared to what I pay for Ducati belts for the 1098)

That's a good price.  Last time I checked in the U.S., it was about 17 Euro's more per belt.  :tongue:  I was looking at buying 4 belts.  I like to have spares but the price scared me off temporarily. 
4 bikes that have belts........8 belts x $45....... :shocked: :shocked:  So it'll be a JIT for parts.  :undecided:

I do the same for repairs.  I take my time on maintenance.  No garage to take them to.  If I wanted someone to work on them, it would be cheaper to fly my friend in from Sandpoint, ID to Kona, HI.   :grin: :grin: :grin:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online blackcat

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2018, 03:19:36 PM »
That's a good price.  Last time I checked in the U.S., it was about 17 Euro's more per belt.  :tongue:  I was looking at buying 4 belts.  I like to have spares but the price scared me off temporarily. 
4 bikes that have belts........8 belts x $45....... :shocked: :shocked:  So it'll be a JIT for parts.  :undecided:

I do the same for repairs.  I take my time on maintenance.  No garage to take them to.  If I wanted someone to work on them, it would be cheaper to fly my friend in from Sandpoint, ID to Kona, HI.   :grin: :grin: :grin:

I could have sworn that I purchased some Gates belts when I change mine.
1968 Norton Fastback
1976 Lemans
1981 CX-100
1993 1000S
1997 Daytona RS
2007 Red Norge

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2018, 03:44:40 PM »
That's what I'm trying to chase down.  I found a website for belts but I need to measure and count the teeth.  :shocked:  Would you have the parts number somewhere?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 03:45:43 PM by Tom »
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Blueboarhound

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2018, 09:42:57 AM »
 :popcorn:
1993 Ducati 900SS
1993 Moto Guzzi Daytona 1000
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2018, 11:07:28 AM »
So a little further today

First Tip,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Drain the oil (Don't ask)

After Draining the oil, and cleaning up, then putting the nuts back onto the cam pulleys (rattle gun and a bit of blue Loctite) then rotating the cams back to their marks (socket on the nut and breaker bar turning clockwise)

I got to here



After removing the case I'm finally close to actually doing something and not just taking things apart (of course that could be untold damage)





Maybe somebody ought take my tools and throw them away before I reek untold damage to a perfectly good Hi Cam engine  :wink:

The link earlier in the thread to the Google Photos will show some more boring bits like the cap screws laid out as I took them out the case for instance (they are not all the same length)

When it's all done I'll put it together as a pdf & powerpoint presentation so nobody needs to start trying to print off the thread or anything

Chuck can I steal your Flikr pics as I may want to use them if they are better quality or anything I forgot to record?

John

Online blackcat

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2018, 11:18:46 AM »
"When it's all done I'll put it together as a pdf & powerpoint presentation...."

Thank's for documenting this procedure.
1968 Norton Fastback
1976 Lemans
1981 CX-100
1993 1000S
1997 Daytona RS
2007 Red Norge

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2018, 11:43:56 AM »
Quote
Chuck can I steal your Flikr pics as I may want to use them if they are better quality or anything I forgot to record?

Sure. I probably have more from back in the day.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2018, 10:50:07 AM »
Note that Joe C has now repitched the lightening holes in his oil pump drive gears so that unlike the Guzzi originals (which must have been designed by a drunk!) there is a meaningful amount of material between the holes. 

It takes a lot of initiative to do what Joe has done with these gears, and Daes in Germany with the oil pumps, and although not cheap it's really a great service for an owner who who wants to keep his Hi Cam engine going indefinitely.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 10:01:38 AM by Tusayan »

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 09:51:00 AM »
Well I knew the Woodruff keys might be a bit reluctant but Jaysus

The crank came out with a bit of persuasion but the belt pulley shaft!! I must have been hammering away at that little sucker for a good bit of yesterday afternoon, I was starting to worry about the shaft it was gruesome

Eventually today with the aid of a center punch and a substantial hammer I finally got it out, I do not want to do that again in a hurry

So pictures of Joe's oil pump & gears set






Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 04:53:44 PM »
Oooh.. shiny.   :grin:  :thumb: :thumb:
Money well spent, IMHO.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 07:07:35 PM »
Thanks for posting the pix on the thread.   :thumb:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2018, 02:10:34 PM »
More for those interested

Note that Joe C has now repitched the lightening holes in his oil pump drive gears so that unlike the Guzzi originals (which must have been designed by a drunk!) there is a meaningful amount of material between the holes. 

Joe contacted me to tell me that the re-pitching of the lightening holes was from a suggestion by Will Creedon and he wanted to make sure Will got the credit for the change.

I reckon so should Joe for listening and updating his design to make something already good even better. 



Pull the Spacers & bearing on the Stubshaft, come off pretty easy but not so easy that I didn't need a puller



Spacers on Stubshaft



Remove the Gear, mine came off after a little wiggling, no pullers this time



Remove the Phonic Wheel, again came off without resorting to pullers



Check the Stubshaft thrust plate




Put the Phonic wheel back on the same way as it came off

Install the Steel Gear, mine was tight on the dowel holes and the Stubshaft will turn, but that's not an issue the Phonic Wheel position is locked in place with the dowels and when the steel gear goes on as long as it all lines up it cannot have moved out of phase, the only thing to watch for is that the Phonic Wheel goes back on the right way.



I had a bit of a time getting the gear on it slid up the shaft beautifully but even after using some emery cloth to try to remove some of the Tuftriding? one of the dowels was still tight. So I eventually (after 2 other abortive tries) put the dowel and hole that fitted easily into the stubshaft and the one that was tight onto the Steel Gear then mated the whole lot together.

A good deal of judicious use of a plastic mallet was required to seat the gear & move it onto the Phonic Wheel. Seating was then checked using a feeler between the Phonic Wheel and the Steel Gear as "Go No Go Gauge" (you can see s**t).

Both dowels were then checked for seating using a pin punch and some light tapping with a hammer

Oil Pump Domani
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 02:17:40 PM by Old Jock »

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2018, 03:06:28 PM »
Thanks for the pix.   :thumb:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online blackcat

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2018, 04:23:09 PM »
That's what I'm trying to chase down.  I found a website for belts but I need to measure and count the teeth.  :shocked:  Would you have the parts number somewhere?

I guess that I must have purchased them from Guzzi. Moto International has them for a little over $24 bucks each:   http://www.motointernational.com/store/pistoncylinder-sets/cam-belt-each-daytonas-centauro
1968 Norton Fastback
1976 Lemans
1981 CX-100
1993 1000S
1997 Daytona RS
2007 Red Norge

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2018, 06:38:50 PM »
Thanks for the link.
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline Blueboarhound

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2018, 12:37:53 PM »
 :popcorn:
1993 Ducati 900SS
1993 Moto Guzzi Daytona 1000
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
2012 Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2018, 01:31:53 PM »
 :boozing:  Beer with  :popcorn:      :grin:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2018, 02:11:22 PM »
I made some more progress today but after that I've ground to a standstill. I'll explain why at the bottom, I should also add that it slows me down by a factor of at least x4 stopping to mount the camera onto the mini tripod then line it up (sometimes better than others) to get the shots. I don't mind as I said I would help Joe produce some more comprehensive instructions and it would appear a few guys on here seem to find my travails useful.

Ok so yesterday and today I removed the oil pump gear using an external puller, the gear was a lot tighter than the Stubshaft/Cam gear but that is to be expected it is seated on a taper, it came off with quite a bang. Also if using an external puller, then either a washer or spacer placed in front of the shaft nose is required if you are to prevent damage to the shaft and threads. What I did was to back off the securing nut until it was only on the shaft by a few threads and overhung the end of the shaft, then mounted the puller so the center of the puller was pushing on the nut and not the driveshaft nose



Next was to remove the Woodruff key in the oil pump drive gear you can see the keyway it locates into in the picture above, for that I used a pin punch and a small hammer and out it came without too much fuss

Removing the pump itself took quite a while and a lot of whacking with a deadblow plastic mallet, I found out later that this was because the 2 dowel pins in the oil pump were tight onto the Crankcase. However at the time it was just a matter of whacking and praying. I started pounding on the pump body to little effect. Then in desperation started to pound onto the shaft which I hated doing but it was only then that the pump started to shift off the crankcase.

So the 2 pumps side by side with the dowel pins that have to be tapped through from the original pump then inserted into the new one & the Woodruff key needed for the new pump install too



The crankcase sans oil pump



The new oil pump with the dowels installed (I hope I don't need to remove them again, they were pretty reluctant to go in and no doubt would be more so to remove)



Finally just 2 shots of the pump in situ, you need to use the bolts Joe supplies with the kit and I added a smidge of Loctite Blue (medium) just to be sure. As the bolts went in the oil pump seated without too much drama at all (these tight Dowels again) but on it went and checking with a feeler all round showed the pump hard on the crankcase wall





So to the delay, well I had actually progressed further than shown here and mounted the gear but I wasn't happy with the Woodruff key although I've reinstalled worse in the past. I had 2 shots at lining up and seating the key, and am still unsure if I did so. However in the end I decided that I'm going to try and source a new Woodruff key for the Oil pump drive, I may be able to get one this side of the pond but if not I'll be chasing Charlie preferably as he posts up here and has been of real help to me in the past or Gordon at MG Cycle.

So a bit of cleaning up tomorrow and also removing the exhaust to send to Camcoat to get ceramic coated inside with a Stain black finish on the outside. I'm hoping it will reduce the heat under the fairings and also enhance the look of the bike, the stained headers are about the only thing on this bike that is not in REALLY good nick

John

ps I'm wondering if I should change the thread title to make easier if anybody starts to search for info on this modification





« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:18:17 PM by Old Jock »

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2018, 02:21:48 PM »
I know the pins came with the oem set-up.  Are they really needed if red Lock-tite is used and the bolts are torqued down?
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2018, 02:24:25 PM »
What's the issue with the woodruff key - is it not letting the gear slide on or moving out of position? Even when very carefully removed to be reused, they can be a PITA to get back in and have the gear slide on. Somehow burred or distorted slightly. I usually resort to sanding the sides on a piece of emery paper and eventually I get it to a point where everything finally slips together.

I made an adapter for my (small) slide hammer that threads onto the shaft of the pump. Then I just gently "bonk" it outwards until off.
Charlie

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2018, 02:59:45 PM »
You'd think it would be just a standard woodruff key.. but.. as Charlie says, you can probably reuse it. I'd take a flat mill file to each side.

I know the pins came with the oem set-up.  Are they really needed if red Lock-tite is used and the bolts are torqued down?

Yeah, they locate the pump.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Tom

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2018, 10:17:50 PM »
Wouldn't the bolts do that?
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online Old Jock

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2018, 03:44:55 AM »
Wouldn't the bolts do that?

Not sure Tom how precisely the pump needs to be aligned, I'm no expert at stacking tolerances etc: but I'd imagine that dowels (especially if a close tolerance) would locate the pump more accurately onto the crankcase wall than bolts alone.

What's the issue with the woodruff key - is it not letting the gear slide on or moving out of position? Even when very carefully removed to be reused, they can be a PITA to get back in and have the gear slide on. Somehow burred or distorted slightly. I usually resort to sanding the sides on a piece of emery paper and eventually I get it to a point where everything finally slips together.

I made an adapter for my (small) slide hammer that threads onto the shaft of the pump. Then I just gently "bonk" it outwards until off.

I'll review it again today Charlie, it just looked to me like the key wasn't seating firmly onto the shaft and standing prouder than it was when I removed it. I could still get the gear wheel on without resorting to brute force and in the case of the oil pump I reckon the taper is what keeps it from moving on the shaft rather than the key itself.

Probably paranoia on my part but I just want to be as sure and as comfortable with it as I can be.

Do you have them in stock? I'll check Motomecca on Monday (this side of the pond) but if I'm outta luck you are my next best chance.

John

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Re: Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2018, 09:48:54 AM »
I don't keep them in stock as I so rarely need one. MG Cycle might be the best bet.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=3078
Charlie

 

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