Warning: HID EXTRA RAZIR LED BULBS DON'T WORK (in a California 1400)

[lencap]

Greetings -

I've posted earlier that I'm not fully satisfied with the lights on my California 1400 Custom.  To provide more illumination I scanned the web and ordered H3 and H7 LED bulbs to replace the stock ones on the bike.

I took the headlight assembly apart to install the bulbs (quite an involved process) and when I attempted to install the LED Bulbs it quickly became apparent that they don't fit. 

The seller will send me a return shipping label, but that's not the point.  The website specifically lists the bulbs as part of a kit designed for the California Custom.  Why would you list a motorcycle as being compatible if in fact it isn't?  And what about the several hours of disassembly/reassembly that's totally wasted effort.



*edited subject line for model -R59

[lencap]

Greetings -

I've posted earlier that I'm not fully satisfied with the lights on my California Custom.  To provide more illumination I scanned the web and ordered H3 and H7 LED bulbs to replace the stock ones on the bike.

I took the headlight assembly apart to install the bulbs (quite an involved process) and when I attempted to install the LED Bulbs it quickly became apparent that they don't fit. 

The seller will send me a return shipping label, but that's not the point.  The website specifically lists the bulbs as part of a kit designed for the California Custom.  Why would you list a motorcycle as being compatible if in fact it isn't?  And what about the several hours of disassembly/reassembly that's totally wasted effort.

[rodekyll]

It would help to know WHY it doesn't fit, especially since you specify the Cali.  All Cali's?  8- inch Cali headlights?  What?  Why?

[atavar]

They just list everything that takes H3/H7 bulbs.  There was no fitment test performed, or rather you *are* the fitment test. 
I ran in to much the same thing on my car in that GM reverses the polarity on their small bulb sockets so standard LED's will not work and they require the "B" suffix. 

[rodekyll]

2nd post for the same rant. This sort of topic is only productive with detail and many,like myself, are interested in why.  Please give us the rest of the story.

Thanks. :)

[Triple Jim]

I'm not sure if you're saying these are HID or LED.

[stevet]

Is this an Ebay purchase from the Far East?  Claim one thing, deliver another?

Steve.

[lencap]

The purpose of my post isn't to troll or annoy, but to inform.  I spent a lot of time researching headlight alternatives, and found a site that claims full compatibility with the Moto Guzzi California Custom.

The site is HIDExtra and is located here: http://www.hidextra.com/moto-guzzi/

As you can see they advertise as using CREE LEDs (very high quality) and further state that their product is fully compatible with the Moto Guzzi California.  It isn't.  The H7 bulb barely fits in the housing, and has no grommet to hold it in place.  In use it would move if you went over any bumps or rough areas.  Not acceptable in a headlight bulb.

The H3 bulb doesn't fit into the socket at all.  There is a large heat sink in the rear of the bulb that prevents it from fitting.  Furthermore, each bulb requires a special ballast connector to connect to the bulb socket and another connector to connect to the internal Guzzi wiring.  The cables are long and don't fit in the headlight housing. 

All in all, yes I'm a frustrated, but that's because I took several hours to open the headlight housing, carefully track the wiring, tried to use the bulbs that were advertised as fitting my motorcycle, and in the end it was a giant waste of time.  I realize retrofitting things is hit or miss, but if a manufacturer specifically states that a product is designed to work with a specific motorcycle, then it should work.  Wasting my time, having an unhappy consumer and having to issue a refund all could have been avoided if the manufacturer took the time to actually test to see if the bulb he sold worked in the California - he obviously didn't.

My post is intended to save another Guzzi owner the same frustration I had.  I have no grudge with the company, and I truly wish them well.  Better lighting is good for everyone.

[lost]

I used the Razir LED bulbs on my Yamaha FZ1 and they work great. I did have to grind a little off the base of the original rubber grommet to allow me to twist lock the bulb in. The ballasts can be mounted out of the way if you can find a happy spot for them. All in all it wasn't a terrible project but not as plug and play as I expected. Bulbs are really bright.

[Triple Jim]

Thanks for the clarification.  I had never heard of that brand, so I was  confused.

[stephenm]

I successfully installed LEDs in my Touring.
They have braided copper heatsinks.

Stephen

[rodekyll]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply trolling.  I did want the details, though.  Thanks for that.

So this is a new-issue Cali with some sort of h3 base.  The base is not the same as the h3 bulb you bought, and all the other wires and boxes don't fit in the headlight shell.  The wires and such not packing into the headlight shell is expected.  You need to get creative with the zip ties to fit them.  But h3 is h3.  That part I don't understand.  Can you take some pics of that?  Was there a conversion plate included in the kit?

[Bisbonian]

I would think it's unreasonable to expect a bulb reseller would have actually tested their bulbs in each application. I'm sure that all they did was go through and show the catalog based on bulb part number.

I tried the LED bulbs in my 1200 Sport. I got a low beam that would fit in the space allotted however there was evidently not enough air space around it as the plastic housing around the cooling fan melted:



I tried a different vendor for the high beam however the large heat sink and the position of the wires would not allow it to fit in the space available at all.

I wasn't impressed with the low beam LED at all. Sure the light was bright and white but it actually put much less light on the bulb where it was useful at night. I switched back to a halogen bulb and am much happier.

If you got a refund and free return shipping on your bulbs then you're doing better than I did with my high beam bulb. The vendor first told me there were no returns but then decided he'd take it back for a 20% restocking fee if I paid the return shipping.

[Triple Jim]

If you got a refund and free return shipping on your bulbs then you're doing better than I did with my high beam bulb. The vendor first told me there were no returns but then decided he'd take it back for a 20% restocking fee if I paid the return shipping.

That looks similar but not identical to one I got from Cyclops Adventure Sport.  It also failed.

[lost]

All LED bulbs are not created equal. The good ones have a hood on the end to direct the light in the correct direction. Your OEM bucket is set up for a directed beam from the bulb to throw the light where aimed. I have seen a utube video of a fellow that had a cheap LED and he fabricated his own hood to make the light work correctly. my Razir LED had the hood and it throws good light compared to the OEM.

[lencap]

The stock H3 halogen bulb is small and fits easily in the designated space.  The LED bulb has a very large heat sink at the base of the bulb.  That heat sink prevents it from fitting into the socket space of the original H3 bulb.  If you put the LED bulb into the H3 space the projection of the rear heat sink extends beyond the back of the headlight assembly preventing the cover from being put back into place.

There was also no rubber/plastic grommet with either bulb.  Without the grommet the bulb doesn't tighten with the standard wire clip mounts.  The halogen bulb is very narrow, the LED bulb is far wider.  The wider base doesn't stay centered in the mounting hole - any movement while riding will cause it to move.

The connectors for each LED bulb require a ballast connector.  The manufacturer makes the connection from the ballast to the LED bulb using a proprietary connection that ends in a female plug.  A standard H3 halogen bulb terminates as a spade lug.  So you need another connector to connect a spade lug to a male snap connector.  That connection requires yet another connector to work properly.  So the entire connection from the manufacturer has almost two feet of connectors wired together.  Very challenging to fit in the headlight assembly, and even if it did, the rear of the H3 LED heat sink won't fit.

The H7 LED bulb has some added room, but without a rubber grommet to hold the LED bulb that bulb will also move around every time you ride. 

In summary, a good idea, bad execution for the California, and the manufacturer's website suggests that the bulbs will fit.  My post isn't intended to punish the manufacturer for trying, but to vent frustration for the misleading information on his site that states that their conversion kit is specifically designed to work with the California, when it clearly doesn't.  The intent is to save other California owners from wasting time only to find it doesn't work.

From my personal discussions with the owner it appears as if technology may eventually find a solution, but we're not there yet.

Here's a picture of the LED bulb - you can see how the shape and size of the bulb, along with the large heat sink at the back of the base makes it impossible to fit inside the H3 socket on the California.  It is several inches long overall - many times larger than a halogen bulb.  The H7 bulb is a similar size.  Then imagine the several connectors that have to daisy chain from the LED to the Moto Guzzi electrical lead and you can visualize the problem. 

To be fair, the LED bulb uses CREE parts - a very high end and quality product.  This isn't a cheap import design, it's a well thought out solution, but it isn't compatible with the motorcycle, which is why I started this post in the first place.

[rodekyll]

Good analysis.  :)
These are the same general sorts of problems I had with various HID and LED solutions.  They're designed for automotive use, and rear space/mount depth is not much of an issue with cars.  Like a lot of folks determined to go down that road, I cut the back of my headlight shell with a hole saw to let the heat sink/amplifier thing hang out.  And with the heat they throw to the rear, if it could fit inside the bucket, the heat would cook it.

When I was done with a number of experiments, I finally figured out that most of these drop-in LED and HID upgrades are all fatally flawed in that they are not designed to put their light in the right place to properly focus through the lens.  The results are a lot of bright but wasted light, and a lot of scatter, which annoys traffic and makes fog and snow driving blinding.  I never had satisfactory low AND high beam performance because I had to set my headlight down so low, even with an eyelid on the light.  If I made them optimal, oncoming traffic was very grumpy.  After chopping up my headlight it made ME grumpy that my best lighting bothered them. 

So yes, the drop-in makers need to get a bulb that's properly set or adjustable so you can focus it like a movie projector for your halogen-optimized headlight.  Focus = sharper, concentrated light without scatter. These technologies are always going to have the knob on the back,  but there's no reason why if they can make a 30w LED headlight bulb they can't make it focusable.  I hope to save you some time and grief with my story.

I'm not suggesting LED sucks though (except compared to HID).  I have a 35w modular conversion from TRICKLITE that dropped into my other bike's headlight and it works great.  It includes hi/low completely enclosed with its own reflector, power stuff and such, and is about the physical size of a 7" round sealed beam.  Other types of this conversion exist, many specifically for bikes.  These are solutions designed to be both focused and strong while fitting into most (did you notice I didn't say ALL?) 7" round shells.  Nonstandard sizes and shapes bring us back to focusable bulbs.

HID works best as a projector light, which takes the shape of a tiny theater light -- very long compared to its diameter.  They're going to have to work to shorten it up enough for headlight use.  They could do it with a reflex lens (use mirrors to make the path of the light longer), but it would be prohibitively expensive, and sloppy versions will leave the shadow of the mirror in the center of the pattern. 

So for HID (which blows LED out of the game), I chose a pair of properly focused 2.5" projectors with hi/low, and left/spot, right/flood; 55w (35w is the low power option) and 3700k-ish yellow color will make mini-daylight all around. They are the best lights I've ever had on any type of vehicle.  The cutoff is very sharp -- no scatter.  The combination of spot and flood give me great sidelighting and a good throw down the road.  Low beam (55w with a partition or 'gate' thrown up to block the top part of the beam) makes anything reflective -- like road paint and critter eyes -- sparkle for a mile or more without pissing off the soccer mom coming at you.  It's fun to hit the brights (drop the gate) and light up the highway like a runway for as far as the road is straight.  It's nice to be able to confidently do the speed limit at night without worrying about overdriving the headlights.

$0.02 and good luck to you.

[charlie b]

I had a similar LED H4 replacement for the T5.  The difference is that since the headlight was in a fairing there was no clearance issue or problems in mounting/connecting it.

The light output was really good.  The light I picked was wrong for the job.  It was an offroad design with high and lo beam, but, no cutoff.  I didn't get flashed by oncoming traffic often, but, it was clear the bulb was illuminating the opposite lane.

If you look at reviews of LED conversions in the ADV forum you can find a lot of information about the different bulbs.  Some of the suppliers provide dimensions of the bulb housings so you can determine if it will fit in your housing.  Cyclops and ADV Monster are two that will work with you to see if the bulbs fit your bike.

Cooling.  LED's require a lot of cooling.  Many people on the ADV forum have had trouble with LED's in standard headlight buckets because of lack of cooling.

I had not heard of your vendor before.  As noted above it sounds like he just went through the list of what kind of bulb you have now and matched types without regard to physical dimensions.  Am glad you pointed out this issue with the vendor.  FWIW, it is a common problem with accessory vendors who supply 'generic' parts.

[LowRyter]

The LED H4 replacement I purchased from Cycle Gear would not fit in the headlight buckets for either of my Guzzis.   

I was able to replace the 100wt H4 in my Suzuki Bandit with it.  The 100wt bulb was pretty hot and after 60k miles or so, was causing a little discoloring in the plastic headlight lens. 

The 100wt bulb worked great but I was afraid to install it in the fragile Guzzi electrical system. 

[Lesman]

I installed a LED bulb in my Quota(I did the FZR lense upgrade). I paid $23 bucks for bulb. I spent a ton of time researching dimensions. For many bulbs I just didn't have the space for the bulb. I'm running two relays for my headlights so wiring wasn't an issue. I'm also running a ceramic H4 plug. As stated before , what is the specific reason for the led bulb to not fit?
Was the dimensions of the bulb or the actual fitment of the bulb to housing?

[mucky]

Hi Stephen,

Would you mind sharing a bit more about this? Which LEDs in particular did you fit and how?

Thanks

[rodekyll]

I installed a LED bulb in my Quota(I did the FZR lense upgrade). I paid $23 bucks for bulb. I spent a ton of time researching dimensions. For many bulbs I just didn't have the space for the bulb. I'm running two relays for my headlights so wiring wasn't an issue. I'm also running a ceramic H4 plug. As stated before , what is the specific reason for the led bulb to not fit?
Was the dimensions of the bulb or the actual fitment of the bulb to housing?

The op's long post goes into detail -- sloppy fit at the mount fkangevand lack of rear space in the headlight bucket.

[stephenm]

Hi Stephen,

Would you mind sharing a bit more about this? Which LEDs in particular did you fit and how?

Thanks

This one is from 'jdmaster' LEDs. I have others from 'Xenon Depot.'
They are the same style and could easily be made in the same facility.
I have fitted this style of LED to my Touring, for low and high beam, and the 'fog lights.'

High beam fits easily enough.
Low beam takes a little time as you have to find a space for the driver, then spread out
the braids. But it does fit.
For the 'fog lights', clearance behind the reflector is limited. There is enough room for the driver
but I had to position the cable and driver very carefully, winding it around the back of the reflector
so it didn't bunch up and sat flat. Then the reflector slots back in without fouling the driver.
Took a few tries, but it works OK.
I added a relay and tapped the high beam wire for a trigger
so these 'fog lights' are now driving lights. This actually works pretty well because the reflectors
throw downwards and wide. Aiming the lights up gives a great medium range pattern.
I had already brought a fused battery +- to the front of the bike for my Clearwater lights.

Stephen



photo uploading

[darkstar1269]

Though much more costly than a bulb, has anyone had any experience with these headlights? The adaptive one (crazy money) could definitely be useful on dark twisty roads

http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-headlights-model-8700-evolution-2/
http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-motorcycle-headlights-model-8690-m-series/

http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/adaptive-led-headlights-model-8790-adaptive/

[steveford]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply trolling.  I did want the details, though.  Thanks for that.

So this is a new-issue Cali with some sort of h3 base.  The base is not the same as the h3 bulb you bought, and all the other wires and boxes don't fit in the headlight shell.  The wires and such not packing into the headlight shell is expected.  You need to get creative with the zip ties to fit them.  But h3 is h3.  That part I don't understand.  Can you take some pics of that?  Was there a conversion plate included in the kit?

I successfully installed LEDs in my Touring.
They have braided copper heatsinks.

Stephen

Is it possible to get information on the bulbs you bought for your touring??? I just had the low beam go out, and I wouldn't mind replacing with LED's

[stephenm]

If you go to 'Xenon Depot' under 'headlight bulbs' you can see their latest versions in various types. They now use aluminium strips as heat sinks, but that will work out the same way as copper braid when you bend them to fit them inside the headlight shell. There are vendors on eBay offering copper braided versions as well. I have used some from Xenon Depot, and some from other vendors (bike and cars). They have all been fine. The driver for the bulb has to be poked inside the shell as well. The best result I had was fitting these bulbs to the auxiliary lights and rewiring them to be controlled by the high beam circuit. The reflector in these lights is a perfect match for the sideways firing led emitters. They make great short-mid range driving lights.

Stephen