V7II cold hiccups & idling

[organfixsing]

Some time back, I purchased a new map from Beetle. It is very good. Improved the throttle response somewhat, but still had the coughing when cold.
I changed the 'warmup' map to give it more fuel and this seemed to improve the situation.

Recently, I parked downtown and was away from the bike for an hour or so.
When I started the bike and took off, the bike coughed and spluttered (this was a 23deg C day [73deg F] quite badly.
Obviously the alterations I had done to the 'warmup' map produced a placebo effect in my limited brain.

I reviewed the mapping and finally realized that the 'warmup' map is not actually used, so, I looked for an alternative map.
The map I thought might do the job was the 'Fuel Engine Temp Correction' map.
 I increased the fuel value by a factor of 1.1 and where the map had said 0.94 or 0.98, they were made 1.00.

Yahoo!!! Cold running fixed. (I had put heatsink grease in the engine temperature sensor to improve the performance of the sensor.)

As regards the idle speed, it is set in the 'Idle Speed' map at 1350 rpm when warmed up.
The map temperatures go down to -30C and up to 125C and the idle speed increases with the lower temperatures.
Just for fun, I set the idle speed to be 1000rpm. Works fine, no problems with coming off idle as you might have with a carburettor.
The bike jumps around a little when idling and no one is sitting on it but the idle is reliable.

My 20c worth.
Cheers
Brian 

[pyoungbl]

Brian, I suspect the idle speed is set to give enough oil pressure on a hot day.  Dropping the idle speed will lower that oil pressure.

Peter Y.

[Air-Cooled]

I'm impatient and I don't like to let it warm up, and I have just come to accept the cold start hiccups. Only last a minute.

[Dofin]

I have no idea what my shop did to my V7 but it now cranks, and idles good, also it is so much better when I get going in first gear when cold.  They did remove the evaporation  canister after the engine started acting up.  The work order said they checked the Map and it was the newest one ssoooo I guess there was nothing done to the map?.  I did have the same problems on cold start as you but now it is really like night and day different. 

I know that is no help but I do wonder what WAS done? to make it work?  The old say comes to mind "Dont look a gift horse in the mouth"

[Triple Jim]

Dofin, when an engine's air/fuel ratios are changed and an engine runs better, I always wonder how it affected MPG.  It could go either way.  With our triples, I often hear guys tell me they tuned their carbs and there's no more surging, it hardly needs the enrichers for starting, it pulls great, etc..  Then when I ask about mileage the answer is something like 20 MPG.

[Dofin]

Jim, yep that is right but we have FI (uuk).  Still, I had the cold start problems since I've had the bike so has most all other folks with newer V7s to the point they are buying maps to fix the problem But now my V7 seems to be fixed using the OEM map??  I am still getting around 47-50 mpg.

[pete roper]

IIRC when I was chatting with Mark he'd found a weird aberration with the TPS signal when warming up but I'll wait for him to explain if I'm right!

Pete

[organfixsing]

Peter Y. Thanks for your concern but I took the bike fora 20Km ride, most of which was at 110Km/hr with an ambient temperature of 41C or 106F, using 10W-60 synthetic oil. I didn't seen any oil light come up at any stage, maximum speed or idling at 1000rpm.

Dofin. Because the fuel correction is 1.00 at normal engine operating temperature, there is no increase in fuel consumption under normal circumstances i.e. with the engine remaining at or near normal operating temperature. I haven't had the modification in long enough to do a regular fuel consumption reading. This will come shortly and I expect it will be marginally higher due to the fact of mainly town running and short trips.

Cheers
Brian 

[waxi]

I don't think you would get oil warning light. It's not that critically low, but I would also say that is not healthy. Also, did you check alternator's voltage at 1000 RPMs?

[Hugh Straub]

Brian mentions putting "heat sink grease" on the engine temperature sensor.  What is heat sink grease?

Krgds

Hugh

[Kiwi_Roy]

It's a white grease used in electronics to dissipate the heat, you would see it on an amplifier for instance between the power transistors and the finned heat-sink.
In this case its conducting the heat from the block into the thermistor inside the sensor, I have my doubts it's necessary in this case, even simple grease would conduct enough heat to the tiny thermistor.

[rocker59]

I don't think you would get oil warning light. It's not that critically low, but I would also say that is not healthy. Also, did you check alternator's voltage at 1000 RPMs?

Correct.  IF you see the light, it's too late.

The small blocks should idle at the recommended 1350.

[beetle]

What Rocker said. ^^^^^^^


Heat sink grease is a bad choice. It's designed to operate at a lower thermal range than an expected with an engine. It starts to break down over 100 degrees C.

The warm-up table is functional.

With regard to the fuel-engine-temp correction table, setting a value of 1.0 as opposed to 0.98 will increase fuel consumption. Your assumptions on how the ECU interprets the map is wrong.

[pete roper]

It's a white grease used in electronics to dissipate the heat, you would see it on an amplifier for instance between the power transistors and the finned heat-sink.
In this case its conducting the heat from the block into the thermistor inside the sensor, I have my doubts it's necessary in this case, even simple grease would conduct enough heat to the tiny thermistor.

This problem is particularly accute on big blocks that have the sensor in the back of the RH head. It will also occur on smallblocks but on most the effects seem to be less critical.

I usually use zinc based anti seize as the medium of choice and it works well but care has to be taken to allow the engine to get really hot with the sensor screwed in loosley before tightening it down to allow any excess to expand out up the threads. If you don't the holder will simply crack.

Pete

[pauldaytona]

@organfixsing: it's great that you have looked into the map. Lots of people have done drastic things to solve that, but with just changing the map that regulates it, your done.
My stelvio starts at freezing temps, just like warm. And I can drive away without any hesitation.

My experience is that the warmup map changing works great. lookup the temperature where you have the start hickups. And from left, the first columns(where the highest values are) raise the level gradually. 


Else post a picture with stock and changed warmup map so I can see what you did.

[GuzziJim6]

Guzzi must have fixed the idle problem, the new ones that we sell. seem to idle as they should. Jim

[Dofin]

I copied my map before I took my 2015 V7 to the shop, I will copy it again if anyone wants to look at the two to see what the shop did to fix my idle issues?  Guzdiag

[beetle]

I'd like a look.

[Dofin]

Okay, when I get a chance I will get it copied and forward it to you. 

[organfixsing]

To all who have replied about the warmup. hiccup.

If you look at the 'Warmup Time Legend' table on a V7II map, you will find that the left-hand column consists of all zeroes. This to me says that the Warmup Timetable is not used.
It may be a factory omission and may be corrected later. Certainly the map I have is this way.

For this reason, I used the 'Fuel Engine Temp Correction' map to alter the warmup procedure.
We are in summer in OZ and have experienced a few 43C (110F) days, so I have no opportunity to test it in winter type temperatures, but, the reason I started on this path is because the hiccuping occurred on a 34C (93F) day.

As regards changing the 0.98 readings to 1.00, I can't see the point in altering the fuel map with this table. Surely the fuel map should be correct for normal running?

I had previously increased the fuelling on the 'Warmup' map last winter and was reporting some improvement (maybe this was placebo effect?) but this was obviously not working even at such high summer temperatures, parked in the sun for an hour.

I measured fuel consumption, taken on mostly small town runs and the last 100Km at highway speeds. Came out at 5.04 l/100Km or 56 mpg.

I can't see that the fuel consumption will be impacted much as the fuel increase only lasts until the motor warms up.

As regards 1000rpm idling, here is a quote from Penderic:-
My dual throttle body idle speed dropped about a hundred rpms when I took the evap cannister off my 09 Classic and blocked the manifold port(s) for the cannister. Steady strong idle at 1050 and no stalling hiccups when running cold after doing a ECU remap using GuzziDiag last fall.

I note that the spec for V7 Special is 1100 +/- 100 rpm and although the V7II is a redesigned motor, I wouldn't think that the designers would decrease the size of the oil pump, but Vasco would know from seeing the physical pumps.
I think that the 1350rpm is probably required for reasonable running with the evap cannisters.  OZ doesn't get evap cannisters.

Cheers
Brian   😁

[beetle]

Er, no. The warm-up time legend is simply that. A legend. It shows the values of the break-points for the warm-up table.  You've misinterpreted it.

The fuel-engine-temp correction has one of the greatest affects on the final pulse-width. It does NOT relate directly to the left or right fuel maps. The ECU does a number of corrections based on several tables (not all visible in on the XDF, and definitely not applied in a way that is blatantly obvious). The ECU does a lot of interpolation on the table values (in every map and correction table). Which needs to be considered when changing values. It's not WYSIWYG.

[organfixsing]

Beetle, thanks for your reply, however, I can only go on my experience of 1. Previously, start the bike and let it idle while I put my gear on and open the gate. or 2. Put my gear on, open the gate, start the bike and take off.
The picture may be different in winter, but I can't check it with the present temperatures.
The fuel consumption will not be impacted much as the fuelling will be normal when the motor reaches operational temperature.
I did send you a spreadsheet of my changes to the Fuel Engine Temperature Correction table recently.

Cheers
Brian   

[beetle]

I don't doubt what you tell me has fixed your issue, I'm just want to make sure you understand how the map actually works, and to prevent others from misinterpreting how the map functions.