Author Topic: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue  (Read 4802 times)

Offline Bfelder

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73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« on: December 08, 2016, 05:22:57 PM »
I may be overlooking something obvious but I cannot get the clutch pushrod to engage the clutch.  I rebuilt the clutch with new springs and friction plates.  The spring plate and intermediate plate both looked good. Compressed the plates smoothly and evenly and they compress in and out like I think they should so put the ring gear on and the cap and I'm done.  Before putting the tranny back on, I pushed the clutch rod out the back and carefully caught the inner and outer bodies and the throwout bearing and the pushrod.  Then pulled out the two conical seals and went back in the same sequence only with a series of O-rings in place of the conical seals.  Everything was looking good until I bolted the tranny up and the clutch arm depressed all the way to the back of the transmission without pushing the clutch pushrod.

It seemed that the clutch plates were either compressed, the pushrod assembly was too short or something is missing.  I pulled the clutch back apart and everything appears fine.  I checked the pushrod assembly and everything seems in order.

Does anyone have any ideas about what to check next?  The only thing in the parts manual that I was not sure about was a part listed as an "intermediate tube" that sits just north of the pushrod inner body but I believe this may be the conical seals although I don't see this part on other 73-74 transmission diagrams, only the V7 Sport.

Any thoughts from anybody would be appreciated.  Thanks.
Bob
74 LAPD
73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Offline Hahnda

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 05:50:49 PM »
Which clutch friction plates did you use?
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Offline Bfelder

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 05:53:22 PM »
SD
Bob
74 LAPD
73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Online Tom H

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 06:15:04 PM »
I assume that you did install the push rod cup that sits in the center of the clutch assembly? I don't remember the correct name, but if it's not in there the push rod will go all the way to the crank shaft.

Also, some people where having problems with their new friction plates being thicker. Do a search for their solution, it may have involved a longer push rod,

Just a thought,
Tom
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 06:15:36 PM by Tom H »
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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 06:15:04 PM »

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 06:20:31 PM »
I assume that you did install the push rod cup that sits in the center of the clutch assembly? I don't remember the correct name, but if it's not in there the push rod will go all the way to the crank shaft.
That was my question, I can't find a decent picture of it, about 2-1/2" in diameter with a hole in the middle.
Could it fall out while being assembled?

Here it is
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=221
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 06:28:06 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Hahnda

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 06:24:29 PM »
The SD plates are thick. Just installed another set last week in a T3. You can stick a ball bearing in there, 6mm I think.
2003 V11 Lemans - 2000 Quota w/ Sidecar
1996 California - 1976 Convert
1975 850T -750S Project - 1975 Eldorado Police
1973 Eldorado - 3x 1971 Ambassador
1970 Ambassador - 1963 Stornello Sport
1949 GTV - 1948 Airone

www.scramblercycle. com

Offline Bfelder

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 06:47:57 PM »
Yeah.  My buddy Chris brought up the possibility about the friction plate thickness.  Unfortunately I tossed the old ones after getting the new clutch assembled.  Don't know if it would have helped anyway since the rivets came loose.  The new friction plates are Stein Dinse 30084410SD if that means anything to anyone.  Bought them from MG Cycle so I feel confident that they are the correct ones but something is amiss so I will check on the thickness.
Does anyone know what the proper thickness should be or if the V7 Sport used different thickness plates?

The ball bearing may be a thought too.
Bob
74 LAPD
73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Offline Bfelder

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 06:49:28 PM »
Tom,

Yes I did put the spring plate cap in the correct place. 
Bob
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73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 08:43:55 PM »
I've experienced the same thing as Kevin several times when using the SD-TEC plates. The plates are just slightly thicker than standard. So, you either need a longer pushrod or to insert a ball bearing into the inner body where the pushrod fits. Shouldn't need one larger than about 4 mm though.

Standard plates are 8 mm thick when new, IIRC. V7 Sport plates are the same as all of the other Guzzis with dual-plate clutches.

Charlie

Offline Hahnda

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2016, 09:56:20 PM »
I use a ball bearing that is close to the diameter of the clutch push rod. Wanted it to fit in the bore with a good fit and stay centered on the rod.
2003 V11 Lemans - 2000 Quota w/ Sidecar
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2016, 10:10:52 PM »
I use a ball bearing that is close to the diameter of the clutch push rod. Wanted it to fit in the bore with a good fit and stay centered on the rod.

But, if you use a ball that large, then the outer body protrudes from the rear cover and it should really be flush. Or do you then shorten the pushrod some?
Charlie

Online Tom H

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2016, 10:18:28 PM »
Tom,

Yes I did put the spring plate cap in the correct place.

That piece is an easy one to forget, almost done it myself a few times. The clutch installation tool need that part out to assemble the clutch. Remove tool and all ready to put the trans on and.... crud I almost forgot something.

Tom
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1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
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Offline jrt

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2016, 10:18:48 PM »
Why not do the best of both worlds?  Turn down or cut a 4X6mm cylinder. 
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2016, 10:23:22 PM »
Why not do the best of both worlds?  Turn down or cut a 4X6mm cylinder.

Or just buy a length of drill rod and make a longer pushrod.

Or buy the longer pushrod that MG Cycle offers and shorten it if necessary.
Charlie

Offline Hahnda

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2016, 10:36:45 PM »
I think it's a 7/32" ball bearing that works out to 5.5mm. Maybe just a tiny bit of protrusion from the case but not much.
2003 V11 Lemans - 2000 Quota w/ Sidecar
1996 California - 1976 Convert
1975 850T -750S Project - 1975 Eldorado Police
1973 Eldorado - 3x 1971 Ambassador
1970 Ambassador - 1963 Stornello Sport
1949 GTV - 1948 Airone

www.scramblercycle. com

Offline Bfelder

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2016, 02:44:26 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the advice.  Based on all the comments, it appears I did everything correctly and the SD plate thickness is the culprit.  Antietam Classic Cycle says the stock clutch plate is 8 mm thick new.  i measured one of the new SD plates at 8.6 mm.  Wouldn't think 1.2 mm would make the clutck arm totally ineffective but can't come up with any other explanations.

This does raise another question regarding the additional compression of the clutch springs due to the extra thickness.  Does this affect the clutch action  and/or the clutch lever pull (how hard it is to pull the clutch lever)?
Bob
74 LAPD
73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2016, 04:30:03 PM »
This does raise another question regarding the additional compression of the clutch springs due to the extra thickness.  Does this affect the clutch action  and/or the clutch lever pull (how hard it is to pull the clutch lever)?

I haven't found the extra spring preload to cause any issues with clutch action or lever effort.

I did try a set of "new and improved, lighter" springs once that became coil-bound when the lever was pulled in, causing the clutch to drag. That only happened with the SD-TEC plates - thinner plates and the problem went away. 
Charlie

Offline Bfelder

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2017, 07:04:09 PM »
I want to thank everyone for the great input on this problem and let everybody know I did solve it. After trying all the suggestions, the clutch still was not operating properly.  Oddly it was NOT the clutch thickness or the clutch pushrod. It was the pushrod arm at the back of the gearbox. This was a friends bike and somehow the pushrod adjuster on the arm had backed off enough that the pushrod had contacted and mangled the inside threads. So when I tightened the adjuster to what I thought was contact with the pushrod, it was actually only stopping inside the mangled threads. Tapped the threads to allow the adjuster to screw through the arm and was back in business. Clutch is now good and his V7 Sport is running like a champ.
Thanks again to everybody for all the help.
Bob
74 LAPD
73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Online pehayes

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 07:21:17 PM »
I was going to suggest that you might have installed the friction plates upside down.  That can be done and causes problems.  Then I read your final fix above.  I want to thank you for reporting back and describing your resolution details and action.  So many times people come to this forum for advice.  They lay out symptoms and receive advice.  Then they go away and we never hear back and never know which item of advice actually solved the problem.  Kudos to you for reporting back.  BTW, did it all work out with stock parts or did you still need to insert a ball bearing?  I wasn't clear on that.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 11:12:38 PM »
I was going to suggest that you might have installed the friction plates upside down.  That can be done and causes problems.  Then I read your final fix above.  I want to thank you for reporting back and describing your resolution details and action.  So many times people come to this forum for advice.  They lay out symptoms and receive advice.  Then they go away and we never hear back and never know which item of advice actually solved the problem.  Kudos to you for reporting back.  BTW, did it all work out with stock parts or did you still need to insert a ball bearing?  I wasn't clear on that.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

This. It's one of the things that really gives me the shits too. If someone takes the time to try and help you, the least you can do is tell us if it worked. If questions are asked on the board, well I just think it's a bit rude. When I get approached by people by PM or email and sometimes reply with detailed, pictorial instructions and get no reply or feedback it really does wonders for my blood pressure!

Pete

Offline Bfelder

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2017, 06:15:25 PM »
Patrick,
I did use all stock parts and they worked fine as they should.  I did try the ball bearing which made the clutch where I could barely pull the lever despite the arm/cable setting.  This partially tipped me off that the problem was elsewhere. After discovering the threads where buggered, I took the gearbox back out for the fifth time and removed the bearing.  Glad the frame was crabbed!  The rest is history and as I said the clutch is working great.

Pete,
I apologize for not being more prompt with my reply about the fix!  And I thank you for your constant advise to all us novice mechanics. Without people like you there would be a lot fewer Guzzis on the road!!!
Bob
74 LAPD
73 V7 Sport
93 1000S

Offline guzziownr

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2017, 08:32:26 PM »
If I know someone who is doing a clutch on a Guzzi I like to show up for the last bit when everything is back together.  Then I take a spare spring cup and slide it under the bike with the toe of my boot...
If you ever feel like no one pays attention to you, try making a sandwich in front of your dog

Online Tom H

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2017, 12:16:14 AM »
Glad you got it sorted!! Sorry that it was such a PITA to fix. Thanks for letting us know what the solution was!

Tom
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Offline Luxexterior

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Re: 73 V7 Sport Clutch Repair Issue
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 09:15:45 AM »
Chipping in late with this & I know that the problem described in the post is not the same as the one I'm about to mention but for everyone's info & collective good.  :grin:

I had a similar problem last year when I replaced the clutch on my Spada with a SD Tec clutch kit from Stein Dinse. I could not get the clutch to engage & after much head scratching & assembly/disassembly I discovered that the SD plates were thicker than the original by around 5mm, effectively making the clutch rod short by by the same measurement. This could not be adjusted out. I added ball bearings to the clutch plunger housing to take up the slack & while this worked to it didn't feel right & I wasn't happy.

I called Stein Dinse to tell them about my problem & while denying their was anything amiss with their clutch kit they very quickly suggested an alternative clutch rod they had in stock that was (you guessed it) 5mm longer than the standard issue. This part is apparently intended for use with RAM clutches but SD clearly new this was the fix required for their own clutch kit.

With the longer clutch rod fitted the problem was solved & the clutch remains working perfectly after a year plus of use. The moral of this story is if you are replacing your clutch with a SD Tec clutch kit or using their plates it might be sensible to order the 5mm longer (RAM) clutch rod at the same time. I actually think SD should supply the longer rod as part of the kit, I have spoken to a number of Guzzi owners who have had this problem so mine is not an isolated experience.

Hope this helps someone out there who is struggling with their clutch rebuild or is about to start one.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 09:16:26 AM by Luxexterior »

 

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