The refinement of the MG engines

[canuguzzi]

I am not trying to start a flame war or denegrate the MG engine, I happen to like the one in the Norge.

The big makers have all refined their engines to very high degrees. Take Honda for example but this can apply to Kawasaki or BMW as well and not just their large bikes but also bikes like the KLR and so on.  Honda has refined their V4 engines to the nth degree, having gone through teething issues with cams, valves, fueling and heat management but they've also stuck with the V4 engine as a basic design. The difference though between the V4s of the early 80s to what they stuff into an ST1300 is amazing to say the least.

Forgetting for a moment the economics of it all (probably the most important factor in all this) where do you see that MG could really refine the current engine design while maintaining what makes a MG a MG? I'm not talking about water cooling as that would be a major change, just considering refinement. Is it even possible within the scope of what MG could do?

I used Honda as an example because if you take the early V4s of the 80s and stick them next to the ST1100 and then ST1300 you can see the linear progression of refinement and especially with the ST series, see not so much a radical change as to make them animals of a different species.

Where could MG refine their engines without throwing what we mostly like about them to the wind?

[toaster404]

Refinements in what way?  Basic design has the lifespan.  Probably not "engine" - but get the cooling of the cylinders refined through whatever.  Love jug type fans.  Change in cooling air ducting.  Younger riders I meet on consumer type bikes really like self-adjusting valves.

I'm very curious as to what folks think might be an improvement.  I like the rawness of a twin.

[rocker59]

Ride a 1967 model Guzzi.  Then get back on your Norge and tell us what hasn't been refined.

Seriously?  What is your definition of 'refinement' ?

[Aaron D.]

Ride  a 1967 Triumph, then a V700. Then a 1400 California. Define refinement .

[canuguzzi]

Ride a 1967 model Guzzi.  Then get back on your Norge and tell us what hasn't been refined.

Seriously?  What is your definition of 'refinement' ?

I don't have a definition which is why I posted the question for discussion. Seriously, is the current 8V the epitome of what the engine could be or could it be tweaked to make it even better? Could the valve train be improved? Maybe there are people who know what goes into the design that could contribute, that was all I was asking.

Maybe I should start another oil thread? Just sayin.

[ITSec]

I'll take this question seriously, because I think there are some things worth noting.

First, the most current versions of the engine are fairly fully refined, as far as the internals go. Other than the roller v tappet question, I', not sure how much more can be done before edging into what your description seems to define as major (water cooling, maybe changing the actual materials). Pete and some others can probably speak to whether better oil galleries or such would be good.

In my mind, the things that could best be refined are all the things attached to the engine. Oil pressure sensors (type and locations), wiring and switches, alternators, oil coolers on some models, and so on - these are the things that people keep identifying as pain points.

For the engine, I think the next thing is the much rumored water cooled 1300, if and when it arrives. But for a 'better' MG, cleaning up all the external annoyances would be where I'd ask the team to spend its time.

[kevdog3019]

Ride the V11 series and the current bikes and I'll take the visceral qualities of the V11 series. They have smoothed things out and tightened things up since that time. you need to ride some of the earlier stuff.

[rocker59]

I don't have a definition which is why I posted the question for discussion. Seriously, is the current 8V the epitome of what the engine could be or could it be tweaked to make it even better? Could the valve train be improved? Maybe there are people who know what goes into the design that could contribute, that was all I was asking.

Maybe I should start another oil thread? Just sayin.

It seemed as though you started from the position of viewing the current engine as unrefined.

The design is much "refined" from the original of 1967, much like Harley's engines are much refined from the original Knuckle Heads of the late 1930s.  Same basic architecture refined continuously over decades.

Any more refinements to the Guzzi engine will require major changes:  Overhead Cams instead of "high cams", liquid cooling, or major changes in architecture of the block.

I suppose the biggest "refinement" I can think of, that most modern engines have, is hydraulic lifters.  Pretty much every automobile has them, and many motorcycles do.  Guzzi failed miserably at this refinement ten years ago and hasn't tried it again.  I don't know how they f'd it up, as the American auto makers have been doing hydraulic lifters for over 60-years.

So there you have it:  Hydraulic Lifters  to eliminate valve adjustments.

That's my refinement request.

And yes, hydraulic roller lifters exist.  No reason Piaggio couldn't make them work in a Guzzi engine.

[canuguzzi]

Good lord

"I am not trying to start a flame war or denegrate the MG engine, I happen to like the one in the Norge."

My first words.

Refinement is a never ending process.

I thought that was clear but in the back of my mind I knew it would go sideways. Got it, delete the thread, we're all riding as good as it will ever get.

[cruzziguzzi]

I'd say that MG is the poster child for refinement - even beyond HD.

I look at the issue of refinement this way - I revel in long term continued production/improvement and appreciate it materially when looking at my current vehicles:

Land Rover Discovery - 1960's Buick v-8 after decades of development.
7.3 liter F-250 - again, decades of gasoline then diesel development.
4.0 liter Cherokee - something like 3 decades of refinement.
Guzzis, big and small block - long term shared architecture showing direct lineage and development over decades.
IHC 345 & 392 in two different Binders... Now there's refinement for ya and "modularity" to boot. The 392 is an "Improved cooling" model. I further the "refinement" with aftermarket TBI and digital ignitions.


The Honda - is the ST motor even remotely connected to the old Magna/Interceptor line?

In motorcycles, only HD really rivals MG in continual basic architectural refinement though there are the nostalgic re-visits of UJMs from the likes of Honda and Kawasaki to consider. Some of those may never have fallen out of production in other parts of the world - I dunno.


Todd.

[Kev m]

I suppose the biggest "refinement" I can think of, that most modern engines have, is hydraulic lifters.  Pretty much every automobile has them, and many motorcycles do. 

I might want to take you to task on that.

I'm not sure that is true.

I know there are a good number of EU and Asian offerings have solid lifters, but here's the crux, that have no periodic valve adjustments (or very rare ones).  But I'm not sure how many these days.

I was shocked to find that say the Subaru 2.5L motor was using solid lifters with no periodic check or adjustments. There were just notes in the SM to perform an adjustment IF a valve got too noisy.

I will add that there are almost no hydraulic lifters being used on 4-stroke outboards. And there are obviously still a ton of solid lifter motorcycles.

So I don't know, but I do wonder what the split is in the automotive world.

[rocker59]

My Miata had hydraulic lifters.  Every GM vehicle I've owned has had them.  As I recall, even my 1984 Alfa Romeo had them!

I know that advances in metals have allowed a lot of OHC and DOHC engines to be fitted with shims that basically don't wear out.  Many Asian motorcycles, too.

But, American V8 and American V-twins (save the V-rod) have hydraulic lifters.  And we're talking a metric shite-tonne of vehicles on the roads with just those two examples.

I'd say hydraulic roller lifters would be a refinement of the current air-cooled high-cam Guzzi V-twin. 

Anything that would eliminate the valve adjustment.  (not that it's a big deal, but it's something that 'could be' improved on).

[LowRyter]

refinement vs character

anymore, it's a matter of taste vs technology.  I don't think anyone wants a Norge to feel like a Honda ST. 

[fossil]

The more one of our European petrol car engine is advanced the less you will find a hydraulic lifter. They no longer have a throttle but they govern the engine by the throw of the intake valves. Think BMW Valvetronic or the nice little Fiat Twinair two cylinder car engine (I know there are throttle plates but they are only used in emergency operation).

[rocker59]

I don't think anyone wants a Norge to feel like a Honda ST.

To me, it already does.  LOL!   

[tazio]

Fair question Mr.Pilot. With all that heat pouring onto my left knee, give my Guzzi..     ready for it?-------- Parade Mode ! 
Seriously, how about eliminating Guzzi "crabs" by putting the clutch up front like BMW.
I have heard people point this out as one reason why they would not consider a Guzzi.

[Kev m]

My Miata had hydraulic lifters.  Every GM vehicle I've owned has had them.  As I recall, even my 1984 Alfa Romeo had them!

I know that advances in metals have allowed a lot of OHC and DOHC engines to be fitted with shims that basically don't wear out.  Many Asian motorcycles, too.

But, American V8 and American V-twins (save the V-rod) have hydraulic lifters.  And we're talking a metric shite-tonne of vehicles on the roads with just those two examples.

I'm not arguing that eliminating valve adjustments wouldn't potentially be a boon for Guzzi owners or a refinement to the motor.

I'm just pondering the "pretty much every" and I'm thinking that might never have been true (without further clarification - in the US MAYBE, or US manufacturers, ok sure... but majority, in the WORLD? I'm leaning towards not).

Now that said, I think I assumed otherwise till maybe half a decade ago.

[flip]

I'd love to have a sport-touring big block Guzzi with hydraulic lifters but I'm not sure that would be in the best interest of Guzzi dealers. They seem to have a hard enough time making a go of it. Doing away with some required maintenence that a lot of folks have done by a dealership can not be for their bottom line. Plus, every time a bike owner has to go to a dealership, the dealer has an opportunity to sell them something.

[mtiberio]

Having had a cal 1400 after years of carbed guzzis, I can say it is very refined. Since selling the 1400 and buying a CalVin, I can say tbe 1400 is light years ahead of the 1100. The FI on the 1400 was flawless. Much like my Honda. I attribute this to Piaggio's deep pockets, which guzzi/aprilia never had.

[rocker59]

I'm not arguing that eliminating valve adjustments wouldn't potentially be a boon for Guzzi owners or a refinement to the motor.

I'm just pondering the "pretty much every" and I'm thinking that might never have been true (without further clarification - in the US MAYBE, or US manufacturers, ok sure... but majority, in the WORLD? I'm leaning towards not).

Now that said, I think I assumed otherwise till maybe half a decade ago.

Typical dirty American, here:  Think Locally, Act Globally.   

Yes, I know my "pretty much every" was some hyperbole. 

[rocker59]

Having had a cal 1400 after years of carbed guzzis, I can say it is very refined. Since selling the 1400 and buying a CalVin, I can say tbe 1400 is light years ahead of the 1100. The FI on the 1400 was flawless. Much like my Honda. I attribute this to Piaggio's deep pockets, which guzzi/aprilia never had.

But, the Cal Vin was a Piaggio product...   

[lucian]

The cali is a great example of MG continuing to refine there current design, It is above and beyond just about every cruiser in its class in terms of technological offerings. The elastic engine mounting and frame rigidity are fantastic improvements. Also the recent change to 8 valve heads and then to roller tappets are another example. As is the change to led lighting. I think they are walking a fine line between modernizing there designs and not loosing what we all love most about the brand, the raw, vibratory, torque laden twin. When they start following the pack instead of doing it there way, is when I'll lose interest in MG's. Although the factory fueling leaves a lot to be desired, I think most of that is because of emission regs. Thanks to those who understand it, ( Beetle), and others, the fueling is now easily corrected. I was recently tempted to take the leap into the modern era and purchase a Tuono, but I really dislike chain drives and decided that I would wait with baited breath for MG's next new offering. Perhaps a v4 Griso.

[Aaron D.]

This may be a heretical statement for some but the small block is actually a refinement of the original, in its more optimized assembly and particularly the smaller volume of the crankcase.

That is if you want to talk about design refinement as opposed to refined character. The 8 valve setup sure looks more refined than the Daytona system. And as MT says the 1400  is amazingly refined in character.

[atavar]

I personally love that the Guzzi engines are a bit behind on the tech curve..  I hate being bleeding edge so I am the first one to discover how that breaks.
I also love that the Guzzi engines are over-engineered to be tougher than needed.  While engineering to bare spec may make things lighter and therefore faster I personally prefer heavier and more durable.
I can easily live with a few extra seconds to get to 100mph if it means my engine and drive train last years longer.

[Steph]

Titanium bolts and isolastic engine mounts ;)

[mtiberio]

But, the Cal Vin was a Piaggio product...   

True, but the calvin is a warmed over ev. I doubt guzzi was benifiting from piaggio ownership at that that time.

[beetle]

This thread is pointless.

[lucian]

Whats your point?

[oldbike54]

 Wait , WHAT ?! Always thought you guys were attracted to Guzzi because of their LACK of refinement, and now you're telling me they should be more refined  WTF ?

  Dusty

[BRIO]

I like my pushrod twin...

Maybe they realize that they can't out-Kawasaki Kawasaki. For the high tech performance market they have Aprillia. It would make sense if they kept Guzzi as the more emotional muscle-bike brand akin to a Euro Harley.