850 Eldorado clutch hub removal -- not coming off

[jas67]

I'm trying to remove the clutch hub from the input shaft of my '74 Eldorado's transmission so I can replace the seal, and put the newer style hub on to go with the new clutch that I'm putting in it.

I've removed the nut with the for notches, and the star washer behind it.    The hub itself is proving to be quite stubborn.    I was told by an experienced tech (with lots of Guzzi experience) that it should just slide right off, or need a little nudge with a hook on a slide hammer.   Well, that didn't work, so, I removed the clutch pushrod and used a 3-jaw gear puller.   It appears to have come off some (see cleaner part of it closest to the seal), but, is not coming off any further, despite using an impact wrench on the puller.  It goes so far and stalls.

Any suggestions on how to get this %$(*&# thing off?



file upload image

[fotoguzzi]

Heat?

[jas67]

Heat?

Tried that too

[73eldorado]

1. Double check that there’s not another washer that you missed
2. Stand the transmission onto its end and spray penetrating oil into the cavity and let it sit for a couple of hours
3. Heat the hub and use your puller
4. If that doesn’t remove the hub there is probably damage to the shaft or hub when it was installed by some goon with a big hammer
5. Do you have a good quality puller or is some little tinky toy one
6. I agree with your tech that it should slide right off
7. Last resort is a clam shell behind the hub and put it in a press

[73eldorado]

Goggle bearing separator puller not clam shell. I messed up on the name of the puller, I’ve used them lots in heavy duty applications and I have no doubt it will work

[Idontwantapickle]

Patience Grasshopper! 
You might want to gently push it back (no hammering) and keep it wet with your favorite penetrating oil for a few days. I cringed a bit when I read the bit about the puller and impact wrench. The case is very easy to break when wrangling stuck parts and the nose of the input can be damaged by a puller.

Hunter

[73eldorado]

The light may have come on, check your lock washer. Is there a piece of it missing on the inner diameter. They can break if a impact is used and get jammed in the splines, then when you use a puller it gets wedged between the shaft and the hub. Use the nut to push the hub in not a hammer, put the trans in gear and hold the output shaft ( where the U joint fits) in a vise with aluminum jaws so you don�t damage the shaft. Don�t hammer the hub in as you can definely cause damage to the transmission. If you have a old U joint you can weld a nut to it and put it in the vise. You can also use the proper Moto Guzzi tool but most people and shops would have to buy it. After you tighten up the nut remove it and see if there�s and piece of the washer that�s visable and use a pick and try to remove it. If you can�t remove the piece it�s back to the pullers and you simply have to get good quality puller or take it to a shop that has good tools. That hub is not a press fit so my guess is that something is wedged between the hub and shaft. That�s the best I got, let us know how it goes or if you more questions.

[jas67]

1. Double check that there�s not another washer that you missed

Did that

2. Stand the transmission onto its end and spray penetrating oil into the cavity and let it sit for a couple of hours

Just did that, it is standing now.    I won't be able to get back to it until tomorrow evening, so, it'll get a good long soak.

3. Heat the hub and use your puller

Yep, tried that several times.

4. If that doesn�t remove the hub there is probably damage to the shaft or hub when it was installed by some goon with a big hammer

This is my fear.

5. Do you have a good quality puller or is some little tinky toy one

7. Last resort is a clam shell behind the hub and put it in a press

What's that look like?

Patience Grasshopper! 
You might want to gently push it back (no hammering) and keep it wet with your favorite penetrating oil for a few days. I cringed a bit when I read the bit about the puller and impact wrench. The case is very easy to break when wrangling stuck parts and the nose of the input can be damaged by a puller.

Hunter

I'm actually not so sure it has even moved, maybe what I was thinking was the part cleaned by the oil seal was just a difference in machining.    It doesn't go back, even gently hitting with hammer on a bit socket.

The light may have come on, check your lock washer. Is there a piece of it missing on the inner diameter. They can break if a impact is used and get jammed in the splines, then when you use a puller it gets wedged between the shaft and the hub. Use the nut to push the hub in not a hammer, put the trans in gear and hold the output shaft ( where the U joint fits) in a vise with aluminum jaws so you don�t damage the shaft. Don�t hammer the hub in as you can definely cause damage to the transmission. If you have a old U joint you can weld a nut to it and put it in the vise. You can also use the proper Moto Guzzi tool but most people and shops would have to buy it. After you tighten up the nut remove it and see if there�s and piece of the washer that�s visable and use a pick and try to remove it. If you can�t remove the piece it�s back to the pullers and you simply have to get good quality puller or take it to a shop that has good tools. That hub is not a press fit so my guess is that something is wedged between the hub and shaft. That�s the best I got, let us know how it goes or if you more questions.

Despite being splined, it appears to have a slot for a shaft key.   Does that sound right?     I gotta wonder if the key was big enough to cause an interference git, and like you said, someone may have used a hammer to get it on there.   

[pete roper]

What looks like a key slot is the recess for the inner tang of the lockwasher, no key.

I have to say I've never had one that won't come off eventually. Some of them have been pretty tight after up to forty years of slowly rusting into place but I've not had one absolutely refuse.

Perhaps try a three jaw puller of substantial proportions, load it up with a swag of pressure and then bung loads of heat unto the hub? See if that'll break it loose. Once it starts to move it'll probably be easy.

Pete

[jas67]

What looks like a key slot is the recess for the inner tang of the lockwasher, no key.

Yep, just walked back out the shop and saw that before reading your post.

I have to say I've never had one that won't come off eventually. Some of them have been pretty tight after up to forty years of slowly rusting into place but I've not had one absolutely refuse.

Perhaps try a three jaw puller of substantial proportions, load it up with a swag of pressure and then bung loads of heat unto the hub? See if that'll break it loose. Once it starts to move it'll probably be easy.

Pete

I borrowed a pretty substantial slide hammer kick from the local Advance Auto, which has a three jaw puller (way better than the crappy little one I bought at Harbor Freight).   It won't budge it either.

I did try heating it before putting the puller on, but, didn't try heating it under the load of the puller.   I guess I'll try that next after a day of letting the penetrant oil soak in.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

What looks like a key slot is the recess for the inner tang of the lockwasher, no key.

I have to say I've never had one that won't come off eventually. Some of them have been pretty tight after up to forty years of slowly rusting into place but I've not had one absolutely refuse.

Perhaps try a three jaw puller of substantial proportions, load it up with a swag of pressure and then bung loads of heat unto the hub? See if that'll break it loose. Once it starts to move it'll probably be easy.

Pete

This ^^^. I would however put something for the puller to push against on the end of the shaft, rather than having it push on the shaft itself and possibly damaging it (depending on the design of your puller). Doesn't need to be anything fancy - I've used a bolt slipped into the pushrod hole and that worked well.

[John A]

This ^^^. I would however put something for the puller to push against on the end of the shaft, rather than having it push on the shaft itself and possibly damaging it (depending on the design of your puller). Doesn't need to be anything fancy - I've used a bolt slipped into the pushrod hole and that worked well.

this is important. Id not use a slide hammer anymore, it will put too much pressure on the case. 3jaw is the way to go, stuck as it is

[voncrump]

 What about using a thin cut off wheel in a grinder or Dremel. Cut almost through to the splines and then split the hub with a chisel but make sure you support the hub on a secure surface when you split the hub. You are replacing the hub anyway. If you touch the cut off wheel slightly onto the shaft splines it won't be to serious.
Cheers, voncrump

[rodekyll]

You might try winding the puller down on the hub as tight as you can get it and then whack the end of the puller with a small sledge hammer.  Heat and penetrating oil optional.  The shock might get the hub past the ridge it's sticking on.

The real problem isn't unsticking the hub -- the problem will be why the hub is stuck.  I'm thinking either the lock washer tab has broken off and is wedged into its slot or the shaft itself has become crudded up and ridged/gouged. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

I can't imagine a big hunker puller and ox acetylene torch not taking it right off, even if it is rusted together. I'd definitely ditch the slide hammer, though.
Other than that, I gots nothin..

[jas67]

This ^^^. I would however put something for the puller to push against on the end of the shaft, rather than having it push on the shaft itself and possibly damaging it (depending on the design of your puller). Doesn't need to be anything fancy - I've used a bolt slipped into the pushrod hole and that worked well.

Excellent suggestion, I'll definitely do this.

You might try winding the puller down on the hub as tight as you can get it and then whack the end of the puller with a small sledge hammer.  Heat and penetrating oil optional.  The shock might get the hub past the ridge it's sticking on.

The real problem isn't unsticking the hub -- the problem will be why the hub is stuck.  I'm thinking either the lock washer tab has broken off and is wedged into its slot or the shaft itself has become crudded up and ridged/gouged. 

THIS ^^^^

The lock washer tab is fully intact.

[Tom H]

So.... Let's all sit down for a moment and think about this.......

A puller tensioned up and then whacked with a small sledge type hammer or 16oz ball peen is a very good idea especially for a tapered shaft. Pops a gear off so fast you better be ready to catch it. Heat and or WD40 type product is a good idea for rust.

The lock washer has been mentioned, as in a piece broke off and is wedged between the gear and the shaft.....

The picture looks like rust "should not" be an issue. From the OP, a broken lock washer is not the issue.....

I'm going out a limb here..... If the input shaft splines are so hosed from let's say a loose nut allowing the input gear to rotate on the input shaft. Could the input shaft/gear splines not be aligned due to wear? The gear may need to rotate one way or the other so that splines are lined up and a puller can slide the gear off??????

Just a thought???
Tom

[Chuck in Indiana]

things that move then stop do so for a reason and its normally mechanical or galling.

true

[jas67]

So, after soaking all week long in penetrant oil, I gave it another go with the gear puller (using Charlie's suggestion of a bolt in the pushrod hole).    The POS Harbor Freight puller broke.    I also discovered that the big threaded bolt/rod of the puller was galling in the yoke.    Likely it was the chrome plating of the thing that was galling.    This was making it extremely difficult to turn in the yoke, and likely what I was perceiving as torque being used to pull the hub was just fighting the galling.

So, I bought a larger, and less-low-quality-Chinese puller from Advance Auto.

With that one, it came off w/o a fight.    After cleaning up the rust on the splines, I can push the new one on and remove it by hand.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

So, after soaking all week long in penetrant oil, I gave it another go with the gear puller (using Charlie's suggestion of a bolt in the pushrod hole).    The POS Harbor Freight puller broke.    I also discovered that the big threaded bolt/rod of the puller was galling in the yoke.    Likely it was the chrome plating of the thing that was galling.    This was making it extremely difficult to turn in the yoke, and likely what I was perceiving as torque being used to pull the hub was just fighting the galling.

So, I bought a larger, and less-low-quality-Chinese puller from Advance Auto.

With that one, it came off w/o a fight.    After cleaning up the rust on the splines, I can push the new one on and remove it by hand.

 

[rodekyll]

Thanks for the report!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Surprise surprise.. 
I've mentioned a few times that the proper tool is generally 2/3 of the job.

[73eldorado]

Good tools pay for themselves, glad you got it done!!

[twowings]

Excellent! 

[jas67]

Surprise surprise.. 
I've mentioned a few times that the proper tool is generally 2/3 of the job.

 

No more harbor freight junk for me.

[jas67]

So, next up, is replacing the shifter return spring, and, then I can start putting it back together.

This is my first loop, so, I'm looking forward to riding it!

I'm planning on riding it to the Gathering of Nortons on April 15th in Washington Crossing, PA.

As it looked the day I got it:
IMG_0114 by jay_snyder67, on Flickr


Rebuilt motor, with Scrambler Cycle alternator kit,  waiting to go back in the frame.
IMG_2284 by jay_snyder67, on Flickr

I've got new big-hole "cigar" exhaust to go on it, so, the crappy slash cut open exhaust is long gone.

[73eldorado]

Looked great when you bought it!! Had a good owner before you from the looks of it!

[jas67]

Looked great when you bought it!! Had a good owner before you from the looks of it!

It was almost a one owner bike when I got it.    The guy I bought it from inherited it from his uncle.   We used it to ride to his mailbox at the entrance of his development 

Thankfully, the the chrome bores were fully intact, and hadn't started flaking yet.

It's now fully rebuilt Gilardoni Nikasil cylinders, new pistons, crank ground to 2nd undersize (both mains & big end),
reground cam (B10 profile if I remember).

[Muzz]

I love it when a team effort comes together.

[toolittletime]

Glad you figured it out...........nice looking Eldo

Looks so much better than mine did when I picked it up.




Keep up the pics!!!
Tim