'98 EV cranks but won't start

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Lemuel Stephens forwarded this email to me this morning. FI/EI bikes are not my "thing" and I have little experience with them, so I'd just be offering "wild a$$ guess" advice to this gentleman. Perhaps one of you could be of more help?

> From: Robert Turner <shiloh318@yahoo.com>
> Date: April 23, 2018 at 14:15:09 GMT+2
> To: Lemuel Stephens <lemueljstephens@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: 98 EV11 Cali cranks but won't start
> Reply-To: Robert Turner <shiloh318@yahoo.com>
>
>> Hello
> Lemuel, Robert Turner from Marlinton (WV) here. If you are well
> versed in Guzziology and could lend some advise or expertise
> I could use some help. Bike was running fine, only 19k
> miles, fuel pump runs, can hear relays click on/off when
> keyed, plugs seem dry, can't see any spark, fuses all 6
> look good too. Battery voltage good at 12.6-8 after charge,
> seems to crank a tad slow though? Any real Guzzi mechanics
> in West Virginia? Could trailer to Wooster, Ohio or
> Winchester, Va. but don't really have big bucks after
> buying it to spend (retired/fixed income) If you know
> anybody or anything, call day or night!  three zero four - six four six - six six nine two
>> Hey, it ran gloriously for a week! Loved
> it, cooler than a 52 Vincent to us. No matter what, ride
> safe, ride long. Robert

[pehayes]

With the sidestand out, this model will not even crank.

If it is still in this crank/no-start condition, hook up the diagnostic lamp and see if it will throw a code.  Hopefully it will specify the faulty component.  I have pics of the light and connector if you need them.

Dry plugs indicates that the computer is not telling the injectors to fire.
First, pull the flywheel sensor on the right side of the bell housing and clean off all the magnetic swarf which comes from the clutch and ring gear.  Reinstall.
Second, pull the cam timing sensor from the top left of the timing chest and inspect.  This is bathed in oil spray so needs an o-ring to seal.  Also, the gap distance is critical so measure and vary by washers.  Doubtfull this is a problem as there is no way for it to change other than to fail.  Test for the impedance of this sensor.  Replace if it is failed or has a broken wire.
Third, pull the tank and track wires back from the timing sensor.  There is an inline plug for this sensor.  The contacts in the plug got dirty and corroded and produced the exact results you describe.  Cleaned and bent the contacts.  Bike perfect since.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[rodekyll]

Fuel, spark, air.

Give it a shot of starting fluid as it is being cranked.  If it's a fuel problem it will fire.  If it's a spark problem it won't.

[Zoom Zoom]

Fuel filter may have become clogged. I know it sounds strange, but I had this happen to my first EV. Ran fine when I rode it last and would not start a few days later when I went to start it.

I'm assuming this is not a new bike to the owner asking about it. So, I'm guessing it ran fine the last time it was used.

Patrick is correct. If side stand switch is still in place, bike will not even crank. If the switch has already been defeated, this is a non issue to the current trouble. (either way actually)

John Henry

[Lannis]

Also, if I have a bike that is "cranking a bit slow", it could be that the battery is turning the starter but at such a low voltage that the EFI won't work right at the same time.

Battery Load Test is what is needed, not just a "voltmeter check".   Just because the battery can turn over the voltmeter doesn't mean it can supply current to turn the starter and the electronic systems too.

Lannis

[Don G]

My o4 EV spit the fuel hose off the filter one time, do like Roadkyl sez and go from there.  DonG

[Zoom Zoom]

External filter on the 98 Don

ZZ

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I guess I should have written to respond to the owner directly. I'm not in a position at the moment to help him myself.

[Don G]

oooppppSSS! I guess so, pull the fuel line off before the filter and check flow, maybe?  DonG

[rodekyll]

I guess I should have written to respond to the owner directly. I'm not in a position at the moment to help him myself.

Tell him to visit here and read the discussion.

[Tom H]

 :1:

Tom

[Wayne Orwig]

No spark AND not fuel on plugs.
Start by cleaning and testing BOTH timing sensors. The one on the front left of the cam, and the one on the right side of the flywheel.

[radguzzi]

No spark AND not fuel on plugs.
Start by cleaning and testing BOTH timing sensors. The one on the front left of the cam, and the one on the right side of the flywheel.

This...^^^ That Cam sensor gets really gummed up on the '98 and '99 variants, well, I have experienced that at least.  I have owned both (still have the '99) and I use good oil.  There is one in the left valve cover as well.

Best,
Rob

[pehayes]

This bike is new to you.  You have been advised about removing the fuel tank for cleaning its filter or for access to the timing sensor connector.

CAUTION:  You can quickly do some damage.  When Guzzi built this wire plan, they used two connections to the fuel tank.

#1 feeds potent 12-volt power to energize the electric petcock.

#2 feeds weak 5-volt power between the computer and the fuel level sensor.

The idiots at Guzzi used TWO IDENTICAL connectors for these two wires.  How difficult would it have been to use different connectors?  How difficult would it have been to reverse one of the connectors to prevent a mis-match?

If you happen to mis-match these connectors, the 12-volt source now fed to the fuel level sensor will instantly fry it when you turn on the key.  It will never work again until replaced.

Guzzi did install a visual, preventive warning.  If you look at the wires for the 12-volt petcock connector you will see a red, shrink-wrap band about an inch or two away from the connector at both ends.  When you reinstall and reconnect, just make sure that the two red-banded wires are connected together.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Some have suggested a clogged fuel filter.  I doubt that.  This bike ran perfectly: and then it didn't at all.  Binary failure.  A clogged fuel filter would likely have exhibited some strange fuel pump noises and a declining performance in starting and running.  This just worked one day and not the next.  Strong hint at electrical failure.  Original relays are known bogus.  I sent him a link for better relays from Pyro Dan.  I had a duplicate issue which turned out to be corrosion in the Molex connector under the fuel tank which connects the front/left cam timing sensor.  I did get a test LED lamp code on that one.  I sent him instructions on using the test LED lamp.  Standing by for results.  The bike has only 19K.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[antmanbee]

With the pump working and no spark and no fuel that means that the injectors are not receiving a pulse. The ECU will not send a signal for spark or fuel if there is no reading from the cam sensor as it thinks the engine is not turning over.
As Wayne said, it is likely the culprit is the cam sensor on the front left of the engine. Measure the resistance from the sensor while it is unplugged.
It should read about 680 ohms + or - 20-30 ohms.

[Zoom Zoom]

Some have suggested a clogged fuel filter.  I doubt that.  This bike ran perfectly: and then it didn't at all.  Binary failure. 

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

It is possible. Your assessment is exactly the description I experienced:"This bike ran perfectly: and then it didn't at all." I would not have believed it except that I personally experienced it. Still seems odd, but that is what happened to me.

John Henry

[pehayes]

John:  Was it your main filter up under the tank?  Or was it the little 'pencil' filter atop the petcock?  How did you diagnose the filter clog?  Were you able to see that fuel wouldn't flow even with the pump spinning?  Could it be that you inadvertently corrected some other underlying fault in the process of changing your filter?

I ask all this because that was the issue with my EV.  Went out on an errand.  Cranked but refused to start when I came out of the store.  Had to have it towed home.  Messed around with sensors, testing, etc. and suddenly it worked.  I had hot wired the pump and could see that it was continuously delivering a good fuel supply.  A month later it happened again.  This time it threw a code for the cam sensor.  I removed and disconnected that sensor and found corrosion and weak Molex connectors in the junction block up under the tank.  Never happened again.  I carry a spare sensor in my travel tool kit.  Fuel filter has 30K.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Ronkom]

Hey Guys, I'm dealing w/a similar problem in a 2000 V11 Sport (Sputter-sput when hot down on page 3).
My last response post:
Hey Chuck, All ideas much appreciated....no intent to dis, sorry it read that way. Was looking for assurance that the rapidly rising ohm readings as the phase sensor was heated were normal.
OK, when running & hot yesterday did indeed wiggle & jiggle wires & connections including the Phase sensor and sidestand switch (had Alice do that while I sat on the bike) NO Centerstand-UGH! Also, bike does still have electric petcock. I've been through a dying electric petcock & coil, this doesn't feel like either.
AH-ha...just had a thought, fired it up, got it warm & felt the exhaust as I revved it, I can feel the miss in BOTH cylinders. Sounds like at the same time, but won't be able to be sure until Alice gets back & can work the throttle while I have a hand behind each pipe.
ronkom 
OK, ordered a new Phase sensor, just finished pulling the tank to install and the wire feeding the electric petcock came apart where it attaches, apparently it was connected by a couple strands. So, question is: was that the problem all along? should I go ahead & put in the new Phase sensor ($200.00+). Old PS reads proper ohms but the number climbed rapidly when I heated it w/a heat-gun. Is that OK?
Ronkom (Oh for the days of points, condenser, coils, carbs)     

[Ronkom]

Numbers from PS testing:
Pulled the PS from the block (it was clean, no metal filings etc.)  & hit it directly w/the heat gun, reading climbed VERY quickly.... at 788 ohms I stopped. Sensor body was "cuppa coffee" hot to the touch. What say....replace it?
After typing this, PS is back at ambient (to the touch) meter still reading 704 ohms.
ronkom

[Zoom Zoom]

John:  Was it your main filter up under the tank?  Or was it the little 'pencil' filter atop the petcock?  How did you diagnose the filter clog?  Were you able to see that fuel wouldn't flow even with the pump spinning?  Could it be that you inadvertently corrected some other underlying fault in the process of changing your filter?

I ask all this because that was the issue with my EV.  Went out on an errand.  Cranked but refused to start when I came out of the store.  Had to have it towed home.  Messed around with sensors, testing, etc. and suddenly it worked.  I had hot wired the pump and could see that it was continuously delivering a good fuel supply.  A month later it happened again.  This time it threw a code for the cam sensor.  I removed and disconnected that sensor and found corrosion and weak Molex connectors in the junction block up under the tank.  Never happened again.  I carry a spare sensor in my travel tool kit.  Fuel filter has 30K.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

In my case, it was the big filter under the tank. As the story goes, Jan and I had been out with her cousins riding the weekend before the Ohio rally. This was on my '01 EV that I bought brand new, so original owner. Bike ran fine all day and we went back to her house and I parked the bike. We had a few stops during the day. Lets just say that I told Jan I would never ride with her cousin again. Anyway, the following Wednesday, I pulled the bike out, turned it around and loaded it. It was when we were ready to take off that I discovered the bike would not start. We loaded all the camping gear into her Forester and I jumped onto the LeMans. (Now there is a story within a story.) After the rally when I had time, I started working on the bike. Spark? Check. Electric tap? Check. After that, you know what is involved in getting to the filter. Once out, I couldn't blow through it. I don't recall the exact mileage, but since I lost it in the flood in 07, and my 03 LM was new in 05, I'm guessing I had somewhere a bit over 50K.  Had to been 05 or 06 when this happened.

Believe me, I understand how counter intuitive that is, having dealt with my share of those stupid filter stones that GM was so proud of back then. Usually, you would start running out of fuel as demand increases beyond supply. I was the guy who ditched the filter stone and put one of those nice in line filters ahead of the carb. At that time, that bike had been across the country and I got fuel wherever I needed it, only being a little bit picky. (Sometimes anything is better than walking, and when you are unfamiliar with an area, you take what you can get.)

The '01 was kind of a bastard child if you will. Books still showed the big puter under the seat, but mine was the small one under the left side cover. There was no sensor on the bell housing. Timing sensor in the timing chest. No temp sensor on the valve cover. When I went through all that, I didn't have the ability or easy access to see codes, but if you can't blow through the filter, well............... ..............

John Henry   

[Chuck in Indiana]

Numbers from PS testing:
Pulled the PS from the block (it was clean, no metal filings etc.)  & hit it directly w/the heat gun, reading climbed VERY quickly.... at 788 ohms I stopped. Sensor body was "cuppa coffee" hot to the touch. What say....replace it?
After typing this, PS is back at ambient (to the touch) meter still reading 704 ohms.
ronkom

Ron.. you can get that sensor for $10. (!)
It's nothing more than a magnet with a coil wrapped around it.
http://www.miparts.com/detail/rpm-sensor-engine-management_15598#.Wt-KWdTwbcv
I would get one and give it a try.
From memory  even if the electric petcock fails, the fuel pump will groan and pull fuel through it anyway. For a while..
At any rate, a miss sounds electric to me. I'm still betting on the phase sensor.

[rodekyll]

Yes, you can really hear an external pump when it's starved for gas.  Listen and get an ear for the normal sound, so if it happens to YOU can identify the problem (upstream fuel flow) immediately.   It's a decidedly unhappy moaning. I like to listen for the pump whenever I start the bike.

[Zoom Zoom]

The kicker on these bikes is the filter is located after the fuel pump. (That's the big filter, not the screen on the pickup of course.) The pump would still pressurize like normal but nothing would reach the injectors.

I'm also not saying this is the trouble with the bike in question. Merely a suggestion on my part, and then subsequent clarification of my experience.

John Henry

[twhitaker]

Prolly not it  but might try swapping relays.

[Wayne Orwig]

Hey Guys, I'm dealing w/a similar problem in a 2000 V11 Sport (Sputter-sput when hot down on page 3).

Somewhere in those years, there was a big issue with fuel boiling in the line ahead of the fuel pump. A fuel line was sometimes too close to one of the cylinders, and it could boil the fuel and cause issue. Though the main issue was that it would not restart when hot. I saw an EV have running issues when hot. Itg turned out to be a dead fuel solenoid. I assume that the pump had a problem sucking hot fuel through the closed solenoid.

[Kiwi_Roy]

We'll soon have you going
Here's one of Carl's excellent schematics

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1998_EV.gif
The 98 EV will probably have the large P8 ECU but they operate the same, the relay status tells you lots about what's happening.
If you monitor the 87 pin of the power relay with a small 12 Volt lamp to chassis when you turn the key On it should turn On for a few seconds and you will hear the pump prime.
Then when you crank the motor it should turn On again starting the pump and powering up the coils and injectors, it won't do that if the sensor is damaged.

If you don't see the response as above try this same relay in the ECU Relay slot, there it should light as long as the the key is On and kill switch closed provided the stand circuit is ok.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The kicker on these bikes is the filter is located after the fuel pump. (That's the big filter, not the screen on the pickup of course.) The pump would still pressurize like normal but nothing would reach the injectors.

I'm also not saying this is the trouble with the bike in question. Merely a suggestion on my part, and then subsequent clarification of my experience.

John Henry

The EV I bought in Denver had a plugged filter, it made the pump very noisy (consequently it draws more current about 8 Amps instead of ~5) but I had no point of reference, the bike bogged down on the mountains and pretty soon refused to get up to speed.
I pulled the fuel return line off the tank and poked it into a pop bottle, very little came out. I simply back-flushed the filter and it never looked back all the way to BC
Patrick told me about how the fuel filler moat drain plugs, I deduced the water collecting from rain then drops into the tank and converts to rust to plug the filter, I don't think it would be a problem for a bike that lives indoors.

[pehayes]

A few updates.  I have been coaching him off-line by email and phone.

His diagnostic light is still throwing a 1.2 code so we're pretty sure it is the flywheel sensor on the right side of the bell housing.  If everything is working, the diagnostic light does NOT illuminate at all.  The sensor has been removed and cleaned of swarf, but still throws a code.  Today he is pulling it to test continuity and inspect the wiring and especially the plug socket.  Update to follow.  He does have a good electrical career history.

He has changed out all of the relays.

Regarding Carl's wonderful color-code wire diagrams.  I have TWO 98 EV's and neither of them totally matches the official Guzzi wire plan (they do match each other.  One portion of the bike matches the 98EV plan.  The other portion of the bike matches the 1100i plan.  I can't remember which is which (motor or frame) but I do know to inspect BOTH plans before I dig in on diagnostics.

I have experienced two failures with these sensors.  The first was a poor factory routing and subsequent chaffing of insulation to the wire pigtail on the flywheel sensor.  I caught it before it actually shorted or failed.  Re-routed, coated, protected, still  there.  The second was complete failure of the timing chest cam sensor.  Middle of the day and a tow home.  Ended up being corrosion within the terminal junction block where the sensor meets the main wire harness under the fuel tank.  Cleaned with Caig DeOxit.  Still there.

Both sensors are an identical part number on the 98EV.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Chuck.  The sensor you referred to up above is for the more modern bikes.  That one has THREE electrodes in the socket.  The 98EV uses a more rudimentary version.  Only TWO electrodes and the wires come straight up vertical from the sensor, not off at 90 degrees.  Would be nice to find an aftermarket duplicate.   MGCycle has the proper one for about $90.

Meanwhile, his flywheel sensor first tested out at 680 Ohms and then went to ZERO as soon as he touched and moved the wiring pigtail.  Waiting to find a replacement sensor, but I think this will solve the issue as he seemingly has a fractured internal wire in the sensor pigtail.  The timing chest cam sensor remains at 680 Ohms.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA