Author Topic: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...  (Read 2324 times)

Offline Lannis

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Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« on: July 20, 2018, 09:28:02 AM »
So in another thread,  a point was brought up about trouble that motorcycles have when it rains, ranging from leaky luggage (a comfort hassle) to spurious lights going on and off (a safety issue) to just not running any more (a complete functional failure).

Some of the problem might be that the average motorcycle rider (not here, but average in the country) just will not let their bike get wet, so it's never an issue, and maybe the manufacturers are building to their specification (i.e. the bike must work well when dry, but we don't care how it runs in the rain).

What would have to be done to fix that?   As usual, I look to the place where random failures and engines cutting off and instruments failing just isn't acceptable, and that's airplanes.

I've been in planes that were flying through so much water I don't even see how the engines could swallow it all and keep running, much less the parts of the instruments and electronics that are necessarily exposed keep working.    What do aircraft manufacturers do to make sure that lights don't come on or off by accident, or electronic dashes just blink and go out, or the engines start running rough and cutting out just because they got wet?

My old Brits are easy - I'm the one who made all the connections, low and high voltage, and I've made sure that they will work wet or dry; on a ride in May, I rode in hard, solid, splashing, water-running-across-the-road rain on my Norton all day long and it didn't miss a beat.

Will modern bikes ever be like that?

Lannis
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Offline Tusayan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 09:37:00 AM »
Aircraft engines typically run on magnetos, not connected to the aircraft electrical system.  They are in an area of the cowling that doesn't get wet.  The spark plug wires are designed to operate wet.  The air inlet gets wet but the filter is designed to keep most of the water out of the inlet tract.  A little water doesn't hurt.  In the case of an aircraft flying in freezing conditions, there is an alternate air inlet in case of trouble, generally pulling heated air and not exposed.

Other than being disconnected from the engine, the electrical system of an aircraft is similar to that of a car, and works in wet conditions much like that of a car.  Also, aircraft with complex electric systems tend to be types that see less rain than cars, because they often climb up above the clouds for most of the flight.

One of the attractions of light aircraft is their simplicity relative to something like a modem motorcycle or car, meaning that most of the haphazard reliability issues that you see with high tech, modern motorcycles can be prevented by good maintenance, even on a 50 year old $25K airplane - just as you'd do with an older motorcycle.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 09:49:41 AM by Tusayan »

Offline Gliderjohn

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 09:41:24 AM »
I don't have an answer for you except a nice new bike that to can travel on is around 20K give ir take. A new two seat airplane can start at 250K and up. Much of that difference in cost is building in reliability. Maybe Chuck will be able to post how they go about it. What was the saying; "You can build a rocket that is 90% reliable for a million dollars but to make it 99% reliable will cost another 99 million.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 09:48:25 AM »
A new two seat airplane can start at 250K and up. Much of that difference in cost is building in reliability. Maybe Chuck will be able to post how they go about it.
GliderJohn

That's sort of what I think I was getting at.   Even if the manufacturers don't want to spend money to do it, are there things that we can do, with our own time and money, to make our super-zoot touring bikes into all-weather mounts?

I already dipped my Stelvio speedo sensor in liquid rubber to seal up the place where the cable goes into the epoxy box, put a Roper breather vent on my rear drive,  and it's been working fine every since ....

Lannis

« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 09:49:01 AM by Lannis »
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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 09:48:25 AM »

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 09:54:15 AM »
Aircraft are mostly made reliable through simplicity and simple, established techniques, not so much innovation or special details. 

The issue with technology applied to bikes is that it can't be made reliable without spending lots of money to address every tiny detail, as is done on high volume production cars.  Aircraft are more like old motorcycles that mostly circumvent the problem by avoiding technology.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 09:58:56 AM by Tusayan »

Offline Testarossa

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 09:58:43 AM »
Quote
Aircraft engines typically run on magnetos, not connected to the aircraft electrical system.

This. The only electric elements mounted up and forward in the cowl are the alternator and starter motor, both of which will look very familiar: the alternator exactly like a car's alternator and seems to operate just fine in wind-driven mist, the starter motor looks just like a Guzzi starter and similarly doesn't seem to mind wet wind. Everything else is behind the firewall or well shielded inside the wings. The magnetos BTW sit at the top back of the engine, just in front of the firewall.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 09:59:08 AM »
Aircraft are mostly made reliable through simplicity and simple, established techniques, not so much innovation or special details.

I HAVE noticed that my old (magneto, etc) bikes do better in the rain than the new ones ..... Maybe that reliability coming from simplicity and "established techniques" is what draws folks to old Guzzis ....

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 10:01:44 AM »
Exactly

Offline n3303j

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2018, 05:13:15 PM »
Watched an HD V-Rod publicity piece when the V-Rod was a new introduction. Part of the filming was done in a wet booth meant to simulate monsoon conditions. There were lots if high pressure water jets coming from every direction. The bike ran as if it were dry. Don't know how a 10 year old V-Rod would fare under the same conditions.

http://www.reaganacademy.org/apps/video/watch.jsp?v=173512

Around 39:28 on the video.
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Online Ncdan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2018, 05:47:07 PM »
What gets to me is that some manufacturers will not take a little time or money to simply use good quality rubber seals and gaskets to keep water out of simple parts, like headlight housing and dashboards which can get very expensive to repair or replace and it's not just Moto Guzzi either.

Offline Testarossa

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2018, 09:01:16 PM »
Clear silicone caulk is great stuff.
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Offline CalVin2007

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2018, 08:04:32 AM »
 I rode a 2007 Suzuki V-Strom 650 in day-long torrential rain that had nearly everyone pulled off the roads to wait for better conditions. Roughly 450 miles of the stuff,and yes it was dumb to be doing it. That bike did not miss a beat and no problems ever surfaced after the dousing. Well, the chain was pretty dry later.  :grin:  I think that qualifies.

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Offline Murray

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2018, 08:31:19 AM »
Mil spec connectors 18 pin size 20 contacts (about as small as they get) about $50 for each side. A jet/turbine doesn't actually need electricity to run similar to how a gas burner on your stove doesn't need a constant ignition to keep it running.

Most piston aircraft now days are relegated to hobbists and VFR conditions so unlikely to encounters lots of water there are two ignition systems for a reason and as dust is less likely to be an issue you can have a water trap with a drain in the intake.

Weather proof automotive connectors have come a long way in the last 20 years or so too. Have a look at the molex style fitted to an 80's Lemans or something of similar era and compare it to any Guzzi that was built in the last 10 years. Things that used to have moving parts like alternators with brushes and regulators that use contacts are now brushless and solid state.

Not completely impervious ask anyone thats taken a current 70 series Toyota off road and through water.

Basically they are better engineered because having the fan stop has greater consequences than a minor inconvenience there is no in flight AAA service. The other thing is especially in US built light aircraft things have evolved at a glacial pace which means most of the hard lessons learnt 50 plus years ago still apply.

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2018, 09:26:42 AM »
Most piston aircraft now days are relegated to hobbists and VFR conditions so unlikely to encounters lots of water

Complete nonsense, but very typical of what you read outside of the US. 

Weather proof automotive connectors have come a long way in the last 20 years or so too. Have a look at the molex style fitted to an 80's Lemans or something of similar era and compare it to any Guzzi that was built in the last 10 years. Things that used to have moving parts like alternators with brushes and regulators that use contacts are now brushless and solid state.

I think the the issue being highlighted by this thread is that unreliability of European motorcycle electrical systems is today more an issue than it was 20 years ago.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 09:45:44 AM by Tusayan »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2018, 10:07:53 AM »
 Most piston aircraft now days are relegated to hobbists and VFR conditions so unlikely to encounters lots of water there are two ignition systems for a reason and as dust is less likely to be an issue you can have a water trap with a drain in the intake.

Sounds like an airline captain talking. :smiley:
There is a ton of bad weather IFR flying done by piston engine aircraft. I'm at Oshkosh picking on the phone but there's quite a few people would argue that statement right here
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Offline Tusayan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2018, 10:16:10 AM »
Chuck, I'm closely connected with people doing IFR and 1000 mile legs in single engine aircraft outside of the US.  It is a bureaucratic, cost and logistical nightmare, nothing like US operations, and getting worse not better every year.  So the statement has validity as long as you ignore the part of the world where most light aircraft operations occur.

To provide just a taster I selected this thread at random, describing a flight of a few hundred miles.  There are many worse!  https://www.euroga.org/forums/trips-airports/9621-edkb-egka-flight-planning-help

Regardless, piston engine planes are flown reliably by many for transport in bad weather, so the OPs question is entirely valid.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 11:23:52 AM by Tusayan »

Offline Murray

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2018, 09:22:50 PM »
Chuck, I'm closely connected with people doing IFR and 1000 mile legs in single engine aircraft outside of the US.  It is a bureaucratic, cost and logistical nightmare, nothing like US operations, and getting worse not better every year.  So the statement has validity as long as you ignore the part of the world where most light aircraft operations occur.

To provide just a taster I selected this thread at random, describing a flight of a few hundred miles.  There are many worse!  https://www.euroga.org/forums/trips-airports/9621-edkb-egka-flight-planning-help

Regardless, piston engine planes are flown reliably by many for transport in bad weather, so the OPs question is entirely valid.

Basically here relegated to training and hobbyists slow expensive and generally a pain most light aircraft strips are typically a couple of kms out of town with no alternative transport options outside private vehicle. The local flying club where I grew up no longer actually owns any planes this is just reflective of a wider industry trend. The light aircraft fleet is mainly aircraft built in the 60's and 70's and a lot of them are reaching their end of life. Most flying schools are going for machines that a less maintenance intensive (composites) and don't have drinking problems.


Offline Tusayan

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2018, 10:35:41 PM »
The US airport where I’m based serves only GA, has 600 operations per day, 700 based aircraft, light rail stop at the airport and so on.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2018, 09:45:56 AM »
Murray,here airraft built in the sixties and seventies are considered to be modern. :grin: I have flown in England and I'm aware of the restrictions to general aviation .It's extremely difficult to fly there. It is totally different in the states. Here at Oshkosh right now, the weather has been terrible for the last 3 days. There are thousands of aircraft on the field..
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Offline John A

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2018, 10:25:02 AM »
there is a lot of invisible materials technology in aircraft.On an old Cessna with an alternator that looks the same as a Ford, made by Ford,  there are about 17 internal differences such as the leads on the brushes, brush springs and so on. I used to say as a joke: "if it looks the same, it is the same"
John
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Online lucian

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2018, 10:26:41 AM »
I can relate. I just got home from a highway ride an hour each way to have breakfast with  my sister. Thought I would beat the forecast rain if I left early. Didn't happen, about ten minutes into my ride down the skies opened up. It at least was a warm rain but torrential none the less. I continued on as my Olympia jacket and full face helmet kept me quite dry and comfy. It rained at times so hard that cars were pulling over for lack of visibility. I passed two separate, large groups of Harley tourers parked under overpasses and beeped and waved at them and rolled by with my cruise control at 65 mph . I made it down and went out to breakfast the whole time amazed that the electronics loaded 14 custom took that much water with no issues, but still wondering if I would be making it back without incident. The rain only got worse and  I had to slow to 55 all the way back for fear of hydroplaning. The big goose didn't miss a beat , amazingly.  I have been caught in rain before in small doses before with this bike on tours but nothing like this. An hour at highway speeds in a tropical downpour is the real world test and the Cali passed with flying colors.  Very pleased with this bike and would not hesitate to take it anywhere in any conditions.
On the other hand every time I ride the Griso in the rain a plug cap will short out due to the lack of seal on the ngk replacement caps. As brittle as the oem ones were at least they sealed nicely. I think with some due diligence and ingenuity most bikes can be made to tolerate wet but they need to be tested to know for sure.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2018, 10:57:18 AM »
As far as the original question goes, most of the electrics and all of the electronics are in the cabin. In general though it is all of much higher quality than you'll find in automotive applications.
in general the only thing firewall forward are starter generator voltage regulator and two Magneto's.
Also, there are normally two inlets in the cowl. Ram air is forced over through the cylinders and down exhausted out the bottom of the cowling. What electrical gear firewall forward doesn't get very wet..
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 11:03:54 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline John A

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Re: Electrics question for Airplane guys ...
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2018, 11:52:26 AM »
As far as the original question goes, most of the electrics and all of the electronics are in the cabin. In general though it is all of much higher quality than you'll find in automotive applications.
in general the only thing firewall forward are starter generator voltage regulator and two Magneto's.
Also, there are normally two inlets in the cowl. Ram air is forced over through the cylinders and down exhausted out the bottom of the cowling. What electrical gear firewall forward doesn't get very wet..


true except for some indicating systems pickups that are generally well protected and water is ejected with the air through the cowl.
John
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