Careful with Li Batteries!

[Chuck in Indiana]

What about all these wonderful electric cars and bikes often talked about here....Do they have lithium batteries?

Our Prius uses Nickle metal hydride. I don't know if the new plug ins (for instance) use Li or not.

[bpreynolds]

I haven't found them to be so much dangerous as useless, maybe dangerous to my mental health as they made me want to smash things.  Three failures was enough for me to stop even trying with them.  Two different brands, three different occasions they stranded me.  This was in two very different bikes and three different batteries all with brand specific chargers and all right off the tap that morning and failing later in the day even in mild temperatures (50-60). 

[leafman60]

Amazing news.  I don't use Lithium batteries.  Most of my friends who have tried them have gone back to AGM etc.

.

[Rough Edge racing]

Our Prius uses Nickle metal hydride. I don't know if the new plug ins (for instance) use Li or not.

  Yes the plug in uses Lithium batteries according to internet info...Although my experience with lithium iron batteries in bikes has been good, it seems other have had failures...While keeping an open mind to this, it's beginning to sound like 10% ethanol fuel, some have zero problems and some have all sorts of problems..another automotive mystery...

[LBC Tenni]

I’ve had a Bikemaster lithium in my Griso going on 3 years. I’ve never charged it and it still performs as new. Spontaneous human combustion happens sometimes too. Yet I sleep well at night.

[lrutt]

I use Lithium Iron in several of my bikes...

+1 here. 8 years on the same battery in my XR650L, 2 years on my 1975 CB550.

[Kiwi_Roy]

What no one seems to talk about is the cost

How about $ per year including the cost of the fancy charger.

I can see the need to save the weight on a race bike or model plane but for a street bike its only good to impress your friends.
Thats my 2C

[Gliderjohn]

I guess what I am missing here is that these batteries require a special charger but are still used in vehicles that as far as I know have no "special" charging systems.
GliderJohn

[Rough Edge racing]

I guess what I am missing here is that these batteries require a special charger but are still used in vehicles that as far as I know have no "special" charging systems.
GliderJohn

  Lithium iron batteries are sensitive to overcharging...any thing over 15 volts for more than a brief time is asking for trouble...Bike and automotive charging systems don't generally go over 15 volts. With a Lithium battery you do need to check out vehicle charging voltage..But..many conventional battery chargers do charge at near 16 or even 17 volts depending on the battery....A 2 amp dedicated lithium charger is about 35 bucks...You can use some higher end non pulse conventional chargers on lithium.. Again, you need to check the voltage while charging with a known accurate gauge.....Generally, many people simply don't want to bothered keeping track of details like this...

[Wayne Orwig]

I can see the need to save the weight on a race bike or model plane but for a street bike its only good to impress your friends.
Thats my 2C

What part is most impressive, when you call them for a ride because it is cold and the bike won't crank, or when you burn down the house?

 

[Shorty]

I bought a little cell phone sized "POD" jump starter. It worked several times on the mower, and a bike or two. I tried to start the G-5 with it. It lit off a huge spark, then began melting, with a bright flame and tons of toxic smoke. I pulled if off the bike and threw it out in the driveway to prevent causing a fire in the garage. It completely filled the garage with thick smoke, and it continued imploding and smoking for a LONG time. The local bike accessory shop would not give me a refund (about 90 bucks), so I had to contact the MFGR. They sent me another one, would not refund. It is a handy gadget, with built in flashlight, signal light,  strobe and phone charger. But, I will never use it indoors again without gloves and an exit plan.

[greer]

Sounds familiar Shorty, the fellow we bought our Jackal from had the same experience with one of those little chargers, nearly word for word.  His wasn't a Pod though, I can't recall the brand but remember him saying it was around a hundred bucks. 

For anyone interested, I'll link this thread again:

https://advrider.com/f/threads/motorcycle-batteries-agm-gel-wet-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.757934/

Sarah

[leafman60]

I do have a Schumacher SL65 jump-starter that I bought for around $60.  I have used it several times on various motorcycles/cars/trucks and it has worked great. I'm always amazed at how that little thing will spin the dead motor over.  It's a good back-up that I carry with me on many trips.

https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SL65-Lithium-Starter-Portable/dp/B01AG2LN9I

However, for an installed main battery, I have avoided the lithium batteries because of the experiences relayed to me by friends.

A good friend argued with me about them and finally bought one.  A week afterwards, we had a below-freezing morning and his bike would not start (even after trying to warm the battery). He returned his lithium and bought an AGM.

Another friend and salesman for a local Triumph dealership was to meet a group for a holiday ride last Christmas.  He missed the ride because his bike wouldn't crank.  He also tried all the work-around things they tell you to do in cold weather.

Yet another acquaintance with a Ducati repair business was a dealer for Shorai.  After suffering a few non-starts with his personal bikes, he got rid of the lithium batteries and quit selling them.

If you live or ride only in warm sunny places then these batteries may work out okay for you.  I want a battery that I can depend upon and not worry about cold weather starts or how to trick it into performing when it will not work.   

These batteries may come along eventually but, for now, my impression is that they are not ready for prime time.

.

[Rough Edge racing]

 So after reading the post above ,like 10 minutes ago, I go out into the unheated garage to see if my Ducati 900 M will start. 36 F in the garage...the bike has a Shorai battery, the temperature the last few nights has been near 30F..It's a carburetor bike that needs to crank a bit before starting after not being ridden for about a week..I turned on the key...pressed the red button and the engine cranked over for a bit and started....How can that be??? Is 36F not cold enough?  To be truthful I never ride when it's below about 45 F

[Socalrob]

What no one seems to talk about is the cost

How about $ per year including the cost of the fancy charger.

I can see the need to save the weight on a race bike or model plane but for a street bike its only good to impress your friends.
Thats my 2C

Put one in my KTM 690 which is my least ridden bike.  Might go 6-8 weeks and it cranks right up.  No need to charge.

[Chuck in Indiana]

FWIW, I've had Odysseys go for as long as 10 months out in SoCal and start right up. I changed one out at 10 years and another at 12 just because. When an AGM dies, it just suddenly dies, and "She's dead, Jim." Doesn't catch on fire though..
Just had an AGM do that on the Prius. Started normally, drove home, and when the alternator shut down as it was being turned off there wasn't enough battery power to finish the shut down sequence.

[bigbikerrick]

My Son has Shorai batteries in his KTM RC8, and RZ 350. I just read him this thread, so he could be up to speed on the risks , etc.  He wants to purchase a charger specifically to work properly with the Shorais. What do you guys recommend, the Optimate?
Thanks
Rick

[Diploman]

My only experience with bespoke lithium chargers is the Optimate, so I can't compare it with other makes of dedicated lithium battery chargers.  However, I can say that the Optimate is a  well designed and well made device which does exactly what it claims to do.  Regular maintenance of my Antigravity battery with the Optimate keeps the battery balanced and charged - it has never been reluctant to crank the motor, and seems to crank more energetically than the lead-acid Yuasa that preceded the Antigravity.  The lithium- iron- phosphate Antigravity on my V50 once dropped to less than 3 volts when the ground wire to the regulator disconnected while under way and I did not notice until the charge was too low to fire the coils.  Once back in the home garage (thanks AAA), the Optimate was able to recover the battery and restore it to fuel charge and function, a very delicate and tricky operation from what I have read. Most of the well-known brands of lithium batteries (Shorai, Antigravity, Ballistic, EarthX et al) are of the lithium-iron-phosphate type.  The Optimate is specifically designed to work with this type of battery.  A worthwhile and indeed necessary companion for this chemical formulation  of lithium battery, the Optimate charger is reasonably priced (about $65) and does its job admirably.  Highly recommended.

PS:  Just went out to the garage - 36F currently - to test the Antigravity.  Turned on the key, pressed the starter button and the 1980 carbed motor sprang immediately to life under vigorous cranking.  No problem.  Lithium batteries are known to crank less forcefully when the cells become chilled.  The recommended cold starting procedure is to turn the key, turn on the headlight (high beam) and let it run for 30 sec/one minute to warm the battery.  Then crank the motor.

[Kristian]

Please remember that the story origin is skimpy at best--the OP heard something from someone else about something. And I do not cast aspersions on the OP.

Unless the accurately reported story came from a shop owner or manager after receiving confirmation from fire or insurance investigators regarding the cause, the tale should be taken with a grain of salt.

What a story like this, together with the many other simple tales without context of Li batteries failing, does is create a false impression that Li batteries are super-dangerous and are likely to catch fire, due to the concentration of bad experiences in one thread.

There are millions of Li batteries in use the world over; no one has the failure rate figures, but they are likely miniscule.

As always, when using the interwebs to read about some negative aspect of something, it is amplified by the lack of context and tiny scope.

Kristian

[Old Jock]

My Son has Shorai batteries in his KTM RC8, and RZ 350. I just read him this thread, so he could be up to speed on the risks , etc.  He wants to purchase a charger specifically to work properly with the Shorais. What do you guys recommend, the Optimate?
Thanks
Rick

Shorai have their own dedicated charger think it's the BMS-01 they also do a small pocket device for balance charging called the Sentry it can balance the cells if you are not using a BMS-01

If you want to use anything else contact Shorai their pin out to the individual cell packs are different than the standard convention

[Chuck in Indiana]

There are millions of Li batteries in use the world over; no one has the failure rate figures, but they are likely miniscule.

Far from miniscule.. but.. fires are *normally* caused from misuse, such as dropping them or *over charging.* One of the faults of the Ducati regulator is overcharging if ground is poor.
The more I think about it, I'll pass on putting one in the MZ..

[pyoungbl]

Please remember that the story origin is skimpy at best--the OP heard something from someone else about something. And I do not cast aspersions on the OP.

Unless the accurately reported story came from a shop owner or manager after receiving confirmation from fire or insurance investigators regarding the cause, the tale should be taken with a grain of salt.

Original story was from the counterman.....conf irmed through later discussion with owner.  The insurance investigators are pointing fingers at the battery manufacturer.  Since the customer had already fried one Li battery and had photos of it smoking I think it's pretty safe to say that the battery was the cause of this fire.

[Zoom Zoom]

Please remember that the story origin is skimpy at best--the OP heard something from someone else about something. And I do not cast aspersions on the OP.

Unless the accurately reported story came from a shop owner or manager after receiving confirmation from fire or insurance investigators regarding the cause, the tale should be taken with a grain of salt.

What a story like this, together with the many other simple tales without context of Li batteries failing, does is create a false impression that Li batteries are super-dangerous and are likely to catch fire, due to the concentration of bad experiences in one thread.

There are millions of Li batteries in use the world over; no one has the failure rate figures, but they are likely minuscule.

As always, when using the interwebs to read about some negative aspect of something, it is amplified by the lack of context and tiny scope.

Kristian

You should go back and read the post I put here. If you do some research, you can easily find out about the dangers. The OP was not advocating abolishing these batteries but simply to be careful with them. My RC club consists of about 75 people, with about 20 that are regular active folks you actually see out there. Aside from the battery we deliberately ignited at a club meeting, we have had 3 failures of these batteries. One was a crash where the battery evidently was punctured, one was during charging, and the last was due to accidentally being shorted out. This in the past two years. There is a guy on the RC forum who posted that his house burned down due to these batteries. 4 or 500K in losses and he had storage charged his batteries before his family left on vacation. 

There is a reason there are shipping restrictions on these batteries. The container is labeled as hazardous and there is a maximum percentage the battery is allowed to be shipped at. (I think 35% charged, but I'm not positive.)

Since this original post was put here, a friend of mine had one of her dogs chew up one of those electronic cigarettes. When she came home, she found a hole burned in the linoleum floor in the living room and black soot around the spot and on the dog. Thankfully, she is on a slab so the house didn't burn down. She could have easily come home to a shell of bricks.

The LiPo's used for model planes and such are also NOT supposed to be stored at full charge for any period of time. Storage charge is somewhere around 50%. I charge mine at the field just before use and leave them discharged when I'm done flying. (Usually between 35 and 50%.) The charger I use is capable of charging, balance charging, discharging, and storage charging. Although I have been told it is not necessary to balance charge every time, I do anyway even though it takes a little longer. As I stated on my other post, you should never charge at a higher rate than the rated amps of the particular battery. So a 10 amp battery should not be charged at 20 amps for instance. 

IF a cell becomes overcharged while the other cell(s) are still being charged, there is a risk of a fire. If one starts, all the cells will become involved. Understanding what you can do to mitigate those risks is in your best interest. It's as simple as that.

LiIon, and LiPo batteries have a high power density. That is why they are so popular. Lots of power in a smaller package that can be shaped to accommodate various needs. Personally, I would not want such a battery as the power source in my car, motorcycle, lawn tractor, or anything else that could not properly charge and regulate the battery. If an electrical system is designed for such a battery then that is different. I doubt that is the case for cars and bikes. Someone posted a brand that has a balance board incorporated into the battery. That is a good idea. Weather it regulates the input amperage and than provides a cut off I was unable to tell looking at the web site for it.

Strictly speaking, you cannot balance charge one of these batteries with the charge leads. (Exception noted above.) There are a separate set of leads that I connect to a balance port on the charger that lets the charger operate properly in that [balance] mode.

In conclusion, the dangers are real. You are correct that the percentages are low, but considering the regulations for shipping, and the suggested proper ways to charge, and maintain these batteries, there are obvious concerns from people that know way more than I do. Is it not in your own best interest to exercise a little caution?

John Henry           

[steven c]

 I was jump starting my Subaru with one of those small jumpers, saw smoke rising up, jumped out of the car and saw the battery pack was smoking as I grabbed it and threw it in the air it bursted into flames, I was interested in watching it burn but my wife made me put it out, I know not to use water so threw some sand on it to put out the fire.