Swingarm/driveshaft maintenance interval on CARC

[MLR]

After the initial disassembly & greasing, what kind of mileage are you guys going before doing it again? Been 30,000 since I did mine so I was thinking it was time.

[pete roper]

Just as an example I first found out about the lack of grease on a 2008 4V Sport. At about 35,000km its bearings and linkage were toast. They were replaced and packed well with grease and it came back at somewhere north of 180,000 from memory and both bearings and linkage were fine.

Pete

[rdbandkab]

I'm ok with servicing swingarm linkages and bearings (years of dirt bike racing!),  but greasing the splines on the driveshaft always intimidated me.  I was never sure about getting everything lined up again..
I'll probably do the deed when I get another Guzzi.

[Orange Guzzi]

I use spray chain lube regularly.  I goes on wet and flows into the many moving parts.  I do it after a ride.  Give everything a good greasing when the wheel comes off. 

[pete roper]

I'm ok with servicing swingarm linkages and bearings (years of dirt bike racing!),  but greasing the splines on the driveshaft always intimidated me.  I was never sure about getting everything lined up again..
I'll probably do the deed when I get another Guzzi.

No need to line anything up. The CARC shaft doesn't come apart like the VII and Sport/Daytona?Centy items.

[MLR]

I was more concerned about the driveshaft splines needing lubed again than the swingarm bearings since it slides back and forth on the rear drive. Thanks for the replies.

[Huzo]

I was more concerned about the driveshaft splines needing lubed again than the swingarm bearings since it slides back and forth on the rear drive. Thanks for the replies.

IF...the centre of the uni joint is on the same axis as the swingarm pivot, how much does the spline move "in and out" during the normal course of operation.
Not that I'm suggesting the spline should be ignored, I did mine @ 92,000 and while not completely dry, was unacceptably so.

[Orange Guzzi]

I built a carc swing arm on paper with moving parts.  I wanted to see how the wheel moved when going from below the center line with the shock fully extended to to above the center line when the shock is fully compressed.  The axle swing on an arch relative to the swingarm mounting point.  The axle move based on my paper full scale layout 5/16 inch total back and forward while the gear box remains on the same plain/level.  The ends of the two spline shafts (output/input) move about 1/16 of an inch.  Someone with auto cad can lay it out and move everything through the range of movements and get the exact numbers.  As I said, mine test was with correx, poster board, roofing nails, and a marker and removing the shock and making measurement while moving the swing arm  I

It is designed to move up and down and not in an arc.  Which it does a pretty good job at if it is only moving 1/32 inch direction from center. 

[beetle]

Quick, Dusty, lock this thread!

[Huzo]

Quick, Dusty, lock this thread!

No one lost an eye last time !

[Huzo]

I built a carc swing arm on paper with moving parts.  I wanted to see how the wheel moved when going from below the center line with the shock fully extended to to above the center line when the shock is fully compressed.  The axle swing on an arch relative to the swingarm mounting point.  The axle move based on my paper full scale layout 5/16 inch total back and forward while the gear box remains on the same plain/level.  The ends of the two spline shafts (output/input) move about 1/16 of an inch.  Someone with auto cad can lay it out and move everything through the range of movements and get the exact numbers.  As I said, mine test was with correx, poster board, roofing nails, and a marker and removing the shock and making measurement while moving the swing arm  I

It is designed to move up and down and not in an arc.  Which it does a pretty good job at if it is only moving 1/32 inch direction from center.

The fore and aft movement of the spline connection will be a result of the centre of the UJ not being co axial with the swing arm pivot.
If the two were EXACTLY co axial, it's hard to see where ANY axial movement would/could be generated.
The action of the torque link, will not cause the axle to deviate from an arc. The distance of the swingarm pivot to the axle centre clearly does not/can not alter, so the path of the axle is an arc and forever will be.
The torque link is performing a different function.
Ok then.
Off we go !

[beetle]

Like I said. Lock!


 

[Orange Guzzi]

The fore and aft movement of the spline connection will be a result of the centre of the UJ not being co axial with the swing arm pivot.
If the two were EXACTLY co axial, it's hard to see where ANY axial movement would/could be generated.
The action of the torque link, will not cause the axle to deviate from an arc. The distance of the swingarm pivot to the axle centre clearly does not/can not alter, so the path of the axle is an arc and forever will be.
The torque link is performing a different function.
Ok then.
Off we go !

My model shows it moves in an arc.  The gear box input shaft remains facing forward.  It would be interesting to see this laid out in auto cad with movement.  The movement up and down is significant compare to the forward and aft movement as it moves thru the arc. 

So I am stupid and I will leave the Wild Guzzi Board and not renew my membership to the Moto Guzzi Owners Group.  Thanks Beetle.  You and your gang ran another one off.  I don't fit the one upmanship WG culture.  I am going to go hang with the Girls that apparently know to stay away.  You all can continue to share your no experience, but know everything WG culture attitudes with each other.  And don't forget the Corn Oil.  You may need it when you are begging those with a wealth of knowledge which way a right hand threaded screw turns to tighten.  Or how to use lubricant on a moving part.  What a stupid question.  How to lubricate a drive shaft?  Are you people really this stupid?  If your asking such stupid questions, you really should not be doing maintenance. 

I'm out of here, enjoy your stupid comments based on your liquor and weed level while on the computer. 

[guzzisteve]

Wow, that was interesting. Must be raining there too.

[MLR]

Never would have dreamed this would be such a controversial topic. Always thought this forum should be about an exchange of information. If someone wants to take the time to expound on their own detailed engineering theory, I think they ought to be able to even if it's wrong. At least they're trying to make a contribution. That being said one should be willing to accept the possibility they are wrong and will be shown that. The people reading this forum ought to be able to figure out who knows what they're talking about on their own. Hey Beetle, if you find a thread annoying why read it? You & Peter have made huge contributions to this site and I like many others are grateful for it, but I have to admit your posts in this thread puzzled me. Why bother?

[Moto]

My model shows it moves in an arc.  The gear box input shaft remains facing forward.  It would be interesting to see this laid out in auto cad with movement.  The movement up and down is significant compare to the forward and aft movement as it moves thru the arc.   

I would like to see photos of Orange Guzzi's paper model in three positions -- high, midway, and low -- with a tape measure laid between the points being referred to. I found his description hard to follow, but photos shouldn't lie. I hope Orange checks back here and considers posting photos.

Off-hand dismissal of Orange's efforts seems to me to be a violation of the culture/climate of close reasoning and courteous discussion we have tried, historically, to uphold on this board. Digs like "Off we go" are not helpful. Perhaps Orange will rejoin us to continue his valuable contributions, in good time.

Moto

EDIT: It would be helpful if Orange scribed a mark or marks on the sliding components where they meet at the point of least extension. This would make clearly visible any shift in position at other points.

[beetle]

Hey Beetle, if you find a thread annoying why read it? You & Peter have made huge contributions to this site and I like many others are grateful for it, but I have to admit your posts in this thread puzzled me. Why bother?

Because we had this same discussion a few months back. Ego's and know-it-all's had the usual effect. I include myself in that group.

How bout I don't bother posting at all? Everyone would be happy and the BS would run rampant. A happy ending.

[beetle]

My model shows it moves in an arc.  The gear box input shaft remains facing forward.  It would be interesting to see this laid out in auto cad with movement.  The movement up and down is significant compare to the forward and aft movement as it moves thru the arc. 

So I am stupid and I will leave the Wild Guzzi Board and not renew my membership to the Moto Guzzi Owners Group.  Thanks Beetle.  You and your gang ran another one off.  I don't fit the one upmanship WG culture.  I am going to go hang with the Girls that apparently know to stay away.  You all can continue to share your no experience, but know everything WG culture attitudes with each other.  And don't forget the Corn Oil.  You may need it when you are begging those with a wealth of knowledge which way a right hand threaded screw turns to tighten.  Or how to use lubricant on a moving part.  What a stupid question.  How to lubricate a drive shaft?  Are you people really this stupid?  If your asking such stupid questions, you really should not be doing maintenance. 

I'm out of here, enjoy your stupid comments based on your liquor and weed level while on the computer.

Well, he quotes Huzo, then has a dig at me. And everyone else who is new to maintaining a motorcycle. What's that about there being "no dumb questions?". Then he pouts and pisses off. I guess I should have added more smilies. Like I said, huge ego's and know-it-all's. Again, I include myself in that group.

BTW, I use an iPad, for reading WG.

End.

[oldbike54]

 <sigh>

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Wow, that was interesting. Must be raining there too.

Not as much as it is here I'd wager.

[Huzo]

I would like to see photos of Orange Guzzi's paper model in three positions -- high, midway, and low -- with a tape measure laid between the points being referred to. I found his description hard to follow, but photos shouldn't lie. I hope Orange checks back here and considers posting photos.

Off-hand dismissal of Orange's efforts seems to me to be a violation of the culture/climate of close reasoning and courteous discussion we have tried, historically, to uphold on this board. Digs like "Off we go" are not helpful. Perhaps Orange will rejoin us to continue his valuable contributions, in good time.

Moto

EDIT: It would be helpful if Orange scribed a mark or marks on the sliding components where they meet at the point of least extension. This would make clearly visible any shift in position at other points.

"Off we go" is light hearted humour.
Honestly I read and accepted without reservation, the bit where you said it moves in an arc, that is indisputable but could not reconcile that with the bit that said it goes up and down.
But vastly more importantly, I made all my comments in a open hearted vein so am sorry that you were aggrieved.
Honestly..

[Huzo]

Because we had this same discussion a few months back. Ego's and know-it-all's had the usual effect. I include myself in that group.

How bout I don't bother posting at all? Everyone would be happy and the BS would run rampant. A happy ending.

Now no one will turn their nose up at a "happy ending"...

[Zoom Zoom]

I'll post some food for thought. Perhaps more of a question as I have not ever tried to discern the answer.

If the U joint were **exactly** in line on every axis with the pivot point of the swing arm, then does it seem logical that the spline coupling would have no movement? By that same argument, is it not logical that there would be movement there if the alignment is not the same? I'm not talking huge amounts of movement. Likely only millimeters, or a millimeter. I can't imagine lots of movement, but I can see a little.

As for the OP, Pete answered the original question straight on.

John Henry

[Huzo]

I'll post some food for thought. Perhaps more of a question as I have not ever tried to discern the answer.

If the U joint were **exactly** in line on every axis with the pivot point of the swing arm, then does it seem logical that the spline coupling would have no movement? By that same argument, is it not logical that there would be movement there if the alignment is not the same? I'm not talking huge amounts of movement. Likely only millimeters, or a millimeter. I can't imagine lots of movement, but I can see a little.

As for the OP, Pete answered the original question straight on.

John Henry

It's just out of interest that's all.
If you were looking directly through the axis of the pivot pin, and the uni centre was precisely on that point, then where would the end play be generated?
Look, there has to be someone who can explain it better than me, but if it's giving the op the squirts, then for that reason I've had enough.

[Zoom Zoom]

I don't know either. That was why I was asking.

John Henry

[MLR]

I think there can be quite a bit of movement if the center of the ujoint is not in line with the swingarm pivot as you said. Anyone who has ever owned a bike with a chain ought to know this. The chain gets tighter when you sit on the bike. The reason I asked the question to begin with is my last bike with a shaft drive was a Kawasaki Concours & they recommended greasing the coupling every 30,000 miles. But I hadn't considered that the pivot point was different between the two designs. Pete did give a prompt reply, but I thought he was referring to the swingarm bearings. Certainly didn't mean to imply he was wrong.

[pete roper]

The front trunnion is coaxial with the swingarm spindle but the reaction arm doesn't form a parallelogram, more a form of trapezoid. There are also the reactive effects of the pinion trying to climb up or roll down the crownwheel.

[oldbike54]

 I should have been paying more attention to this thread . Honestly I can't what we were arguing about , looks like actually it was some serious miscommunication . If anyone knows Jon (OG) , give him a shout .

 Dusty

[Huzo]

I'll post some food for thought. Perhaps more of a question as I have not ever tried to discern the answer.

If the U joint were **exactly** in line on every axis with the pivot point of the swing arm, then does it seem logical that the spline coupling would have no movement? By that same argument, is it not logical that there would be movement there if the alignment is not the same? I'm not talking huge amounts of movement. Likely only millimeters, or a millimeter. I can't imagine lots of movement, but I can see a little.

As for the OP, Pete answered the original question straight on.

John Henry

Yeah.
That sounds more than reasonable.