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Author Topic: 2004 Breva 750 Oil Change  (Read 5383 times)
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« on: January 01, 2009, 06:43:10 PM »
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I want to change my oil but don't have a shop manual.  Can anyone send me something or let me know the steps?  I also need to know if there is an oil filter to clean or change, torque spec, etc.?  Can't seem to find info on this and don't want to spend $$ on shop manual.
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2009, 07:17:31 PM »
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you'll need a container under the drains (s) that will hold at least 3 liters

pull the rear drain plug  can't remember the metric size

pull the forward drain plug

look under the pan there is a 13mm bolt and cover that has an oil filter (about 12-14 $)  pay attention to

the covers orientation when replacing.

wait for all the oil to drain

replace plugs, replace filter and associated parts,  refill with 2 liters of 10-60 syn oil

If you do as search on oil you  will find way too much info.


I'm sure others will chime in shortly


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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2009, 07:24:50 PM »
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Go to this site

http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/mo/online/Guzzi/Breva%20750/en/

and you'll get the step by step how-to along with drawings.  I think the oil change stuff is in section 2.
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 07:26:16 PM »
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There are a couple of good workshop manuals in pdf. I'm not sure where I got them but they were available on the web. If you want to pm me with an email address, I can send them to you. There's about 14 MB worth.
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 07:33:03 PM »
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Filter required



A source to get one

http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=966

Requires 1.75 liters of SG rated oil.

Moto Guzzi's current recomendation is 10W60 oil.

Warm engine pull the drain plug drain the oil,then pull the filter plate cover and replace the filter.
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 08:53:56 PM »
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I've been looking for a manual for the wife's NEVADA, I've got the oil and filter thing figured out, just want the rest of the info, is that available at the same site
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 09:03:44 PM »
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I've been looking for a manual for the wife's NEVADA, I've got the oil and filter thing figured out, just want the rest of the info, is that available at the same site

check here

http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/lum/index.asp?l=Nevada%20750



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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 06:14:57 PM »
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You'll find manuals for nearly all Guzzis here: http://guzzitek.org/gb/cadres_gb.htm

This is the direct link to the Breva manual in English: http://guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/750/Breva750IE_042003_Atel(GB).pdf



A real great site! Please don't forget to donate a small amount when downloading.
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2009, 07:13:26 PM »
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You've already been  pointed to the right manuals. It's good to be familiar with them and with basic maintenance procedures.

I just did my first oil change today on my Breva, though I actually pulled the sump to install a Sumpspacer. You may want to look into that in the near future; otherwise do keep an eye on your oil comsumption. The Breva has a small quantity of oil and can run down below safe margins if not looked after.

But the oil change procedure is so simple even I was able to do it. Note that there are two drain plugs on the bottom of the sump and you should empty the sump through both. The oil filter is also as easily changed. There's only one screw to remove and it pulls right out.

Do not overfill with new oil, which should be synthetic 10W60. Moto Guzzi has warned that maximum level should be 1.8 liters. (With the Sumpspacer you increase that to 2.7 lt.)

Here's some pictures I took today. You have another bolt to remove in the back to drain as well.

This is the front of the Sump emptying.

 

This is the filter coming off.



This is what the oil sump looks like when you remove it, but you don't have to go this far for the oil change.



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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 11:04:42 PM »
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Good info.  Question for Sumpsaver fans:  does it help the motor run cooler having more oil running through it?
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2009, 03:19:07 AM »
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Good info.  Question for Sumpsaver fans:  does it help the motor run cooler having more oil running through it?

Marginally. I THINK I've counted about 5*C lower, but as it's impossible to run a test at exactly same conditions outside a lab, the lower reading can be a coincidence. At 140*C, of course, 5 *C is a good thing...



That's why only the best synthetic oil qualities should be used here.
Also, at a bigger volume the oil won't wear out as fast.

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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2009, 11:27:25 AM »
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Everyone theorizes that the Sumpspacer should lower engine oil temperature readings, though Anders has pretty much confirmed that the difference is small. I only mounted mine yesterday and riding today with a bit of highway included at 80 mph, the temperature hit 100 C, though that's within my normal and usual range. Ambient temperature about 13 C, foggy, high humidity.

I will keep watching but initially I would confirm Holt's findings. The difference, if any, is rather small. (But then again I have not had my engine above 120 C, not even in the summer, without the Sumpspacer.)

Any difference, however small, is helpful. Best part is having all the extra oil in there. I feel much better now and I think it's a great safety measure on the little blocks, if you do not keep your eye on the oil mark. I was so paranoid -- and justifiably so since my engine did make oil disappear -- that I'm glad I finally got the spacer installed. 
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2009, 01:30:23 PM »
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FWIW, I have outsiders on my big blocks and notice no change in oil temp at all.  Not a direct comparison, but there is significantly more oil capacity with the outsider than without.  To me the advantages of more oil are that there's more to lose before you lose your lubrication, and it takes longer to contaminate a larger oil volume.  The advantage of a spacer is that it takes the oil farther away from the spining crankshaft, reducing splash, foaming, and burping through the vent.  Foaming oil of course does not lubricate and is compressible, so it does not hold pressure as well, either.
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2009, 05:50:53 PM »
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FWIW, I have outsiders on my big blocks and notice no change in oil temp at all.  Not a direct comparison, but there is significantly more oil capacity with the outsider than withoutTo me the advantages of more oil are that there's more to lose before you lose your lubrication, and it takes longer to contaminate a larger oil volume.  The advantage of a spacer is that it takes the oil farther away from the spining crankshaft, reducing splash, foaming, and burping through the vent.  Foaming oil of course does not lubricate and is compressible, so it does not hold pressure as well, either.

I don't think I agree with that.  As you state later, when the factory added the spacer to the big block, there was a longer dipstick so the oil capacity was kept the same in order to move the big puddle farther away from the fast moving bits.  IIRC, I think Harper's even told me when I got my outsider that the amount of oil should remain the same.

For the small blocks, the philosophy was a bit different: Ed made the spacer specifically to increase the oil capacity since there isn't a whole lot in there to begin with, and some of the small blocks have been known to consume a bit during break-in. 

Howard


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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2009, 06:00:47 PM »
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FWIW, I have outsiders on my big blocks and notice no change in oil temp at all.  Not a direct comparison, but there is significantly more oil capacity with the outsider than withoutTo me the advantages of more oil are that there's more to lose before you lose your lubrication, and it takes longer to contaminate a larger oil volume.  The advantage of a spacer is that it takes the oil farther away from the spining crankshaft, reducing splash, foaming, and burping through the vent.  Foaming oil of course does not lubricate and is compressible, so it does not hold pressure as well, either.

I don't think I agree with that.  As you state later, when the factory added the spacer to the big block, there was a longer dipstick so the oil capacity was kept the same in order to move the big puddle farther away from the fast moving bits.  IIRC, I think Harper's even told me when I got my outsider that the amount of oil should remain the same.

For the small blocks, the philosophy was a bit different: Ed made the spacer specifically to increase the oil capacity since there isn't a whole lot in there to begin with, and some of the small blocks have been known to consume a bit during break-in. 

Howard


Yep for the 750, but I've got an outsider on my EV and I just use the normal amount amount of oil so the crank doesn't stir it into a foam.
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2009, 06:16:57 PM »
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FWIW, I have outsiders on my big blocks and notice no change in oil temp at all.  Not a direct comparison, but there is significantly more oil capacity with the outsider than withoutTo me the advantages of more oil are that there's more to lose before you lose your lubrication, and it takes longer to contaminate a larger oil volume.  The advantage of a spacer is that it takes the oil farther away from the spining crankshaft, reducing splash, foaming, and burping through the vent.  Foaming oil of course does not lubricate and is compressible, so it does not hold pressure as well, either.

I don't think I agree with that.  As you state later, when the factory added the spacer to the big block, there was a longer dipstick so the oil capacity was kept the same in order to move the big puddle farther away from the fast moving bits.  IIRC, I think Harper's even told me when I got my outsider that the amount of oil should remain the same.

For the small blocks, the philosophy was a bit different: Ed made the spacer specifically to increase the oil capacity since there isn't a whole lot in there to begin with, and some of the small blocks have been known to consume a bit during break-in. 

Howard




I was pointing out the capacity difference as a simple matter of fact, not as my preference to use it.  I prefer to keep my oil as far away from the spinning bits as possible, but I also like adding the entire 3rd quart of oil.  So I re-notched my dipstick for the additional pint or so.  It's still farther from the crankshaft than stock -- kind of a comprimise to both worlds.  I think I'd add an oil cooler before I'd consider really using that extra capacity to its fullest.
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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2009, 06:17:57 PM »
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Ok, here's a question:  I had four different small blocks in the past, 2 V50IIs, a V50 Monza, and a Lario.  All had the same size sump as the newer Breva 750, Nevada, and V7 Classic, right?  I always ran Castrol 20/50 Dino in them changing the oil every 2500 miles or so and the filter every other time and never used any oil in between.  Why is the capacity and the oil temp now such an issue when it was not in the past?

Do the new FI bikes run leaner and hence hotter or what?
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2009, 06:27:37 PM »
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I believe that a bunch of the people me included were not familiar with the small blocks. When they were doing demos at the National in West Virginia the person in charge of the bikes kept checking the oil. So I asked what the capacity was and was surprised at the small amount in there.
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2009, 07:01:37 PM »
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Yeah, that is a good idea, go ahead and put the whole quart in there and be done with it instead of trying to guess when to stop.  And with the filter moved to the outside, there is even more empty volume in the crankcase.

I think another issue being addressed with the spacer is reducing crankcase pressure.  The spacer appeared after displacement went from the original 700 cc to 949 cc without much if any change in the case.  As I'm sure you know, when you add a liter of volume above the pistons you have to subtract that same liter on the bottom side, and the bottom side isn't equipped with 40 mm Dellortos or even bigger throttle bodies open to the outside world.  The spacer probably makes life a bit easier for the crankshaft seals, etc.

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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2009, 08:09:07 PM »
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I think another issue being addressed with the spacer is reducing crankcase pressure.  The spacer appeared after displacement went from the original 700 cc to 949 cc without much if any change in the case.  As I'm sure you know, when you add a liter of volume above the pistons you have to subtract that same liter on the bottom side, and the bottom side isn't equipped with 40 mm Dellortos or even bigger throttle bodies open to the outside world.  The spacer probably makes life a bit easier for the crankshaft seals, etc.

Howard


Is this theoretical benefit also applicable to the small blocks? Can you elaborate?
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2009, 10:54:30 PM »
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OK, this is all theoretical so someone smarter than me (from another thread) please correct me if this is wrong.

A piston moving in a cylinder changes the volume on the bottom side exactly as much as on the top side.  On the Guzzi engine both pistons are on the same crank pin, so they are both moving mostly in the same direction at the same time.  On the way down, the air, oil vapor, and whatever else is in the crankcase gets compressed by about 1064 cc.  (Due to the 90 degree offset between the two pistons, their motion isn't exactly coordinated, but you get the idea.)  The crankcase volume is obviously many times bigger than the combustion chamber so the pressure doesn't rise by ~175 psi like you see when checking compression, but it does still go up.  Just guessing at numbers, if the volume in the crankcase is 11 liters with the pistons at the top, when they get to the bottom you could see about a pound and a half pressure increase.  That's one reason for the ball check valve that lives in the breather line, so the air and oil vapor gets pushed out on the down stroke and then has to go through the breather box (frame tube) to drop off its oil to dribble back to the sump, instead of just having the vent go straight to the outside world so the oil vapor is lost to the engine.  There's also a bit of combustion gas sneaking past the piston rings that contributes to the process, but I digress.  Anyway, the extra couple hundred cc or so volume of the spacer makes the displacement of the pistons a smaller fraction of the crankcase volume so the pressurization goes down.  As discussed previously, having the spinning crankshaft farther from the oil also keeps it from churning up as much oil vapor, too. 

I can tell you that if you forget to put the dipstick back in before you start the engine after changing the oil, a large area of the driveway, not to mention your left leg, will be covered with oil in about 10 seconds. Shocked

I have never owned a small block and have only ever seen pictures of the the inside.  I do believe that there is a sort of metal barrier already built in to the engine case, between the crankshaft and the oil sump.  It's almost like a dry sump with the oil tank underneath the engine, so adding volume to the oil sump with a spacer won't really do much for this effect on the small blocks.  The stated purpose of the small block sump spacer is totally to add oil capacity.

Howard
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« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2009, 10:41:43 AM »
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After thinking about this a bit more, I believe I'll have to throw a BS flag on myself here.  What I wrote certainly applies half the time, but the other half of the time the pistons are moving in the opposite direction.  So it should average out, especially if you are averaging it 100 times per second. 

At the risk of an electrical engineer taking another WAG about mechanical things, maybe the advent of the sump spacer on the increased displacement big blocks had more to do with getting the oil lake farther away from the increased stroke on the crankshaft?

I do still know that you will get to clean up a very large mess if you start the engine without the dipstick.

Howard
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« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2009, 02:16:23 PM »
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After thinking about this a bit more, I believe I'll have to throw a BS flag on myself here.  What I wrote certainly applies half the time, but the other half of the time the pistons are moving in the opposite direction.  So it should average out, especially if you are averaging it 100 times per second. 

At the risk of an electrical engineer taking another WAG about mechanical things, maybe the advent of the sump spacer on the increased displacement big blocks had more to do with getting the oil lake farther away from the increased stroke on the crankshaft?

I do still know that you will get to clean up a very large mess if you start the engine without the dipstick.

Howard


No, I think you were pretty close the first time.  You've got a butterchurn going on in there -- rather intense positive and negative pressure changes, just like you originally wrote.  If you want a good visual on it, plug the vent and put a clear plastic tube in your filler hole, with the end in the oil.  Start the bike.  The oil will rise and fall in the tube with the piston strokes.  If you get enough tube, you can calculate the displacement.
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2009, 06:26:43 PM »
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This is the filter coming off.




No gloves??  Huh
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2009, 06:37:47 PM »
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I can tell you that if you forget to put the dipstick back in before you start the engine after changing the oil, a large area of the driveway, not to mention your left leg, will be covered with oil in about 10 seconds. Shocked

I have never owned a small block and have only ever seen pictures of the the inside.  I do believe that there is a sort of metal barrier already built in to the engine case, between the crankshaft and the oil sump.  It's almost like a dry sump with the oil tank underneath the engine, so adding volume to the oil sump with a spacer won't really do much for this effect on the small blocks.  The stated purpose of the small block sump spacer is totally to add oil capacity.

Howard

For the first part, not quoted, you're talking Beemerish - the amount of air compressed must be lesser in a 1064 cc 90* V. Specially as we're talking smallblocks carrying a cylinder volume of 748 cc.... But you figured that out, all by yourself.  Grin

Here's a pic of the smallblock sump, as seen it's totally separated from the crankhouse.



And you're right; purpose is adding oil capacity.
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2009, 07:58:29 AM »
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Ok, here's a question:  I had four different small blocks in the past, 2 V50IIs, a V50 Monza, and a Lario.  All had the same size sump as the newer Breva 750, Nevada, and V7 Classic, right?  I always ran Castrol 20/50 Dino in them changing the oil every 2500 miles or so and the filter every other time and never used any oil in between.  Why is the capacity and the oil temp now such an issue when it was not in the past?

Do the new FI bikes run leaner and hence hotter or what?

My guess would be acombination of things:
1. Longer intervals between changes.
2. Oils that are significantly thinner (less viscous) at cold temps, when engine tolerances are widest.
3. Having a machine that is on the wide side of construction tolerances.

Add those three, toss in a rider who is less than conversant with engine technology - likely in what is considered to be a beginner's bike, stir in many short journeys and you have the ideal recipe for the "one piece engine" scenario.
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2009, 08:02:23 AM »
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I can tell you that if you forget to put the dipstick back in before you start the engine after changing the oil, a large area of the driveway, not to mention your left leg, will be covered with oil in about 10 seconds. Shocked

Not on a smallblock.  As previously shown, the oil sump (actually a tank that is part of the crankcase) is entirely separated from the whirly (and uppydowny) bits.

The oil filter doesn't need a clamp, either.....
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2009, 11:26:31 AM »
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This is the filter coming off.




No gloves??  Huh

-and no eye-protection either!  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2009, 12:03:46 PM »
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I can tell you that if you forget to put the dipstick back in before you start the engine after changing the oil, a large area of the driveway, not to mention your left leg, will be covered with oil in about 10 seconds. Shocked

Not on a smallblock.  As previously shown, the oil sump (actually a tank that is part of the crankcase) is entirely separated from the whirly (and uppydowny) bits.

The oil filter doesn't need a clamp, either.....


Mike,pressure blows the oil out, nothing to do with whirly bits. Some pics of the results here if you want to see.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=14588.0

Offcamber, I think the 750s run hotter because they're tuned leaner and also just because of the increased capacity.
They increased capacity over the V50 by 50% but increased the fin area much less (10%?) and the oil capacity not at all. Having said that I don't think the sump extender lowers the temperature and I'm not convinced the higher
temps are what cause some bikes to use oil. I've seen 285 degrees on my Breva and have run long periods at 265 degrees without any excessive oil usage.

Guzzigal, Isn't this fun? Didn't you mean to ask about what type of oil is best?



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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2009, 06:00:22 PM »
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This is the filter coming off.




Sorry, no ATGAT when changing oil. Besides, it's just not the same when you wipe your hands on your pants.  Wink

No gloves??  Huh

-and no eye-protection either!  Grin
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aaronpriest
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2009, 11:18:35 PM »
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Are there oil filters other than the UFI that are easier to come by?  <diclass="msgbox">Noilesuploaded!</di>

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Pfaff!
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2009, 02:10:42 AM »
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Are there oil filters other than the UFI that are easier to come by?  <diclass="msgbox">Noilesuploaded!</di>



May be, but not known. The OEM filter shouldn't be difficult to order, though. If you haven't got a dealer nearby, put an internet order somewhere.
I'm having all of my spare parts from Stein-Dinse in Germany, since I'm living in Europe.
Guess MotoInternational in Seattle would be appropriate for the US. Both mentioned would also ship overseas.
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Anders Holt

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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 03:45:38 AM »
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Are there oil filters other than the UFI that are easier to come by? 

I also have not been able to locate an oil filter other tan UFI here in Europe, but like Anders said it is no big deal to order from any reasonably professional dealer. Get a couple with every order. Not a big ticket item. 
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gwensp
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2009, 07:10:56 AM »
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Ok, here's a question:  I had four different small blocks in the past, 2 V50IIs, a V50 Monza, and a Lario.  All had the same size sump as the newer Breva 750, Nevada, and V7 Classic, right?  I always ran Castrol 20/50 Dino in them changing the oil every 2500 miles or so and the filter every other time and never used any oil in between.  Why is the capacity and the oil temp now such an issue when it was not in the past?

Do the new FI bikes run leaner and hence hotter or what?

The new FI small blocks (and the big ones too) do indeed run much leaner than the old carbed bikes. Its all to to do with meeting emissions control requirements and having a cat convertor to keep hot. 

I check the oil in my Breva every 2nd fill up of gas.  There hasnt been any sign of oil usage. Probably becuase I am well past the break in period. But I have talked to other FI Breva/Nevada users whose broken in bikes use oil if run at high speeds (85 90 Mph) for long times.
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