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Author Topic: Throttle body balancing ,tps setting question  (Read 3479 times)
bigbikerrick
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73 Eldo 03 Aluminum,00Wing trike,98 Magna,84 Cal2a




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« on: February 25, 2009, 03:28:12 PM »
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Hello all, I remember an old tutorial somewhere with step by step instructions, and nice pictures, on balancing the tb's and checking the TPS voltage with a simple multimeter on a Guzzi, I cant find it now. can any of you fine folks guide me to it? also can this still be done easily, with a digital multimeter on my 03 Aluminum Hydro bike? . Or do I need some fancy-dancy, whiz -bang electronic  tool to check my TPS settings. My bike is running great, and my wife tells me that if something isnt broken, I will try to "fix it anyway"  ::)I guess I am a terminal tinkerer, but that is what sets us Guzzisti apart from the "rest" is'nt it? I just want to be sure the tuning is adjusted to perfection. Any help here will be greatly appreciated, Have a Great Day!  Rick.
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2009, 03:50:55 PM »
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Here's a complete write up with lots of details by "Jeff" that guided me through the process.  Sorry no pictures.

http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
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Wayne Orwig
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2009, 04:05:08 PM »
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My bike is running great, and my wife tells me that if something isnt broken, I will try to "fix it anyway"  ::)I guess I am a terminal tinkerer, but that is what sets us Guzzisti apart from the "rest" is'nt it?

Whatever you do, take a note of every setting before you touch it. For example, read the TPS voltage at idle before you disconnect anything, so you can go back. (expect it to be 300 to 600 millivolts)

DO use a GOOD fan to keep the engine cool.
 
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bigbikerrick
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73 Eldo 03 Aluminum,00Wing trike,98 Magna,84 Cal2a




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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 02:09:07 AM »
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My bike is running great, and my wife tells me that if something isnt broken, I will try to "fix it anyway"  ::)I guess I am a terminal tinkerer, but that is what sets us Guzzisti apart from the "rest" is'nt it?

Whatever you do, take a note of every setting before you touch it. For example, read the TPS voltage at idle before you disconnect anything, so you can go back. (expect it to be 300 to 600 millivolts)

DO use a GOOD fan to keep the engine cool.
 

     Thats good advice , Wayne. I will follow it, Thanks alot!
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 02:16:19 AM »
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Here's a complete write up with lots of details by "Jeff" that guided me through the process.  Sorry no pictures.

http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html
    Thanks Mike, I think the one with some pics may be over at the V 11 LM forum, but I may be wrong, Rick
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 02:48:41 AM »
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I usually download good information to my own computer. Easier to find when you need it.
Here are a few on the TPS-setting:

(Don't really know who wrote it, and you won't see the pics...)


Quote
IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING
For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006
V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions:
http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm

Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows:

Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike).

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. These are normally connected together with a hose, which is to be temporarily disconnected.

Next, close both air bypass screws, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash. Start the engine and balance the throttle body vacuums at idle using the synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”)

Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more.

Check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:
A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment, then:
B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, go to step C, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.
C. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes.

That completes the procedure.

Once this procedure is completed successfully, future minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

Options:
Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level.
Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more.
The setting of .521 volts is in the middle of the range of published settings, and has been found to be reliable for stock motorcycles. However, for those who wish to follow specific instructions in their aftermarket parts, Moto Guzzi owners or service manuals, particularly for modified motorcycles, the table below shows the TPS voltage corresponding to various opening angles per the Magnetti Marelli OEM TPS specification. For other settings, here is the formula: 0.1061 volts/degree + 0.150

Degrees Volts DC
2.9 .458
3.4 .511
3.5 .521
3.6 .532
3.8 .553
4.0 .574
4.1 .585

 
Larger image click here

 
Larger image click here

Measure the TPS voltage at the outer two wires or TPS contacts. There are many different methods:

1- Probe at the ECU.

2- Disconnect the cable connector from the TPS. Use two short lengths of thin stranded wire of about 30 gauge. Strip about 1/4-3/8 insulation off the ends of the stranded wires, insert a stripped end into the connector, and push the connector in part way, far enough to make electrical connection, but no need to jam it all the way.

3- Follow the wires up under the seat, splice, solder, and insulate in some lines with female bullet connectors for easy probing.

4- Probe at the TPS connector, as shown in this image that Mike Stewart graciously provided:
 



These instructions are the product of many people.
It was composed in this thread:
http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12056
Originator: Ryland3210
Principle investigators and authors: Ryland3210 and dlaing
Contributors of useful technical information: docc, BrianG, Guzzijack, luhbo, motoguzznix, pete roper, Greg Field, Jeff in Ohio, MPH motorcycles, and Jaap (for defending our thread against extinction).








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Anders Holt

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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 02:49:42 AM »
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Since the posting was too large; here's part 2:

GrahamNZ wrote this, for the 1100 Breva:

Quote
Throttle balancing and TPS resetting
This will be new to some and old hat to others, but given recent events............. here it is again with an important extra.

General arrangement
• The left throttle body carries the throttle-stop screw, - the "sacred screw" - which is factory set and must not be altered. It sets the left throttle butterfly mechanically at a base position of 4.5Ί to 4.9Ί with the throttle closed and the engine stopped. 4.5 seems to be the common setting.
• The right throttle spindle carries the TPS which must be zeroed electonically
• whenever throttle balance is adjusted. The TPS should also read 4.5Ί to 4.9Ί with the throttle closed and the engine stopped.
• An Axone device with software 5.0.4 or later (or TechnoResearch VDSTS) is needed for the ECU type IAW5AM to set the TPS zero position of the adjustable right throttle to agree with the non-adjustable left throttle.
• Idling speed and mixture are dealt with automatically by an ECU-controlled stepper-motor and cannot be adjusted manually.
• Both throttle bodies have air bleed screws which act independently of the ECU and are used only to perfect idling vacuum. Both screws should be closed or just one slightly open.

TPS resetting
• Connect the Axone or VDSTS to the diagnostic plug provided in front of the tool kit compartment, and to the battery terminals, and turn the Axone or VDSTS on. Turn on the ignition key and within 10 seconds connect the Axone or VDSTS to the ECU. If the TPS reading is not 4.5Ί to 4.9Ί select and run the TPS resetting function on the Axone or VDSTS.
• When prompted to do so, turn off the key for at least 30 seconds. When the key is turned on again the TPS reading should be 4.5Ί to 4.9Ί

Throttle balancing
• Start the engine and warm to 60 degrees C and then stop it.
• Remove the M6 blanking screws on the outer sides of both throttle bodies and fit vacuum hose nipples. Connect vacuum gauge hoses to the nipples and close both throttle-body air-bleed screws so any vacuum balancing won’t be influenced by the air bleeds.
• Start the engine and gradually increase the speed to a steady 3,000 RPM. If the vacuum readings at 3,000 RPM are not within 1cm Hg of each other the balance will need to be adjusted and the TPS reset again.
• Vacuum balance is adjusted using the adjusting screw on the left end of the link rod. The rod length should not be altered by moving the ball joint ends because that can affect the parallel movement of the throttle levers and give unequal opening as the throttles are opened further.
• Stop the engine and re-run the Axone or VDSTS TPS resetting procedure. This is essential because any adjustment of the link rod will have moved the TPS position at the same time. The Axone or VDSTS then tells the TPS to treat its physical position as being base in relation to the mechanically-stopped left throttle.
• Start the engine and at idle fine-tune the Hg balance by opening only the air bleed on the side with the lower Hg reading.

Now the extra bit for those of us who have a tampered with "sacred screw".
Resetting the sacred throttle stop screw

Here is a method of resetting that "sacred screw". One of us had suffered from total dealer mechanic incompetence where the sacred screw and the air bypass screws had been used to try to tune the bike - unsuccessfully of course. The adjuster on the left end of the the throttle link rod had never been touched, nor had the ball joints on the rod ends been touched. The cure was this:

• Using Axone or VDSTS reset the TPS as above.
• Close both air bypass screws.
• Using a vacuum gauge set, balance the vacuum at 2,500 - 3,000rpm as above.
• Reset the TPS again.
• Use the air bypass screws to balance the idling vacuum. (RH screw closed - LH slightly open)
• The idling speed was now too high but the bike otherwise throttled well. To cure that, the sacred screw was backed off to produce 1100rpm idling, another TPS reset was done and finally the air bypass screw balance was perfected.

Quite simple really. Maybe not the perfect method but one that works in the real world because now that bike throttles perfectly.

Graham

Also concluded that you can only use a multimeter depending on type of ECU.
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Anders Holt

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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 03:36:07 AM »
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Great information, Anders. Do you have those downloaded with the pictures?! This idiot here would need that if you have it. Not that I would exactly know what to do with the precious information but oh well.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 03:37:12 AM »
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Great information, Anders. Do you have those downloaded with the pictures?! This idiot here would need that if you have it. Not that I would exactly know what to do with the precious information but oh well.  Embarrassed

I'll PM you.
There are a bit more for the smallblocks added.
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Anders Holt

Breva V 750 ie "Rossinante" '03. Running fine ever since.
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 02:53:24 PM »
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I could well be wrong, because I know nothing about the Breva 750 tuning, but Guzzis from 2005 onwards need an Axone or VDSTS to set the TPS.

With my 2001 V11 Sort I used a multimeter and infinite patience.......What a difference a screw makes!

Graham
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 03:53:23 PM »
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What a difference a screw makes!

Graham

I'll seconded that!   Grin
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74 V7 Sport
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2009, 11:44:52 PM »
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Hello Group-
I have an '03 EV Touring with 44K miles on the odo.
Lately it has been running poorly.
Specifically, when I use a lower gear and run the engine around 2000-2500 RPM I get an occasional cough, sputter and sometimes backfire.
At 3000 RPM or higher no problems.  At highway speeds - no problems.
Last week, coming back from Daytona, I got 40+ MPG at 70 MPH.
The bike has hydraulic lifters and has had the replacement cam.
I'm more of a carburettor and points guy.  I have never worked on FI or Electronic ignition.
Do I need to adjust the TPS?
Any help will be appreciated.  Wise-cracks ok too.
Thanks in advance.
Stephen.
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Wayne Orwig
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2009, 11:51:18 PM »
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Lately it has been running poorly.
Specifically, when I use a lower gear and run the engine around 2000-2500 RPM I get an occasional cough, sputter and sometimes backfire.
At 3000 RPM or higher no problems.  At highway speeds - no problems.

That may be a bad/dirty TPS.
Maybe the TPS needs tweaked a little. That can be done with software or a good voltmeter.
Maybe you are getting more alcohol in the fuel making it lean. For that tweak you need a software tool.

But, since it is cheap, I would start by trying new spark plugs, just in case.
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2009, 12:14:15 AM »
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Lately it has been running poorly.
Specifically, when I use a lower gear and run the engine around 2000-2500 RPM I get an occasional cough, sputter and sometimes backfire.
At 3000 RPM or higher no problems.  At highway speeds - no problems.

That may be a bad/dirty TPS.
Maybe the TPS needs tweaked a little. That can be done with software or a good voltmeter.
Maybe you are getting more alcohol in the fuel making it lean. For that tweak you need a software tool.

But, since it is cheap, I would start by trying new spark plugs, just in case.


wayne beat me to it.  he's one of the best troubleshooters.  maybe you need a throttle body sync. but i think its probably a TPS going bad.
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