Kickstarter!

[Guest]

[dbabic8]

There is something seriously emotional ,somehow, in bringing bike to life using my own energy...
I usually contemplate that when, in cold weather (I ride around the calendar...), my beloved V35 gives me a hard time refusing to start.
Pushing is not an option, it's clumsy and hard, plus it looks ridiculous.
Than, one day, I gave one drawing in my users manual more careful look, and I realized that my bike should have a kickstarter!




Perhaps it was only meant to be when Tonti was planing the model, but before it actually come into production, that feature was dropped... maybe early series of small block actually had it, mine was built in '78., couple of years after the beginning of the production of the small block...

Were small blocks ever produced with the kickstarter, and which big block models had that feature? I saw an Ambo with it...

[Goose]

I remember reading article about MG in 67/68 and the article noted that this was the first 'big bike' with only electric start. As far as I know, know big twins were ever fitted with kick starters. I do not remember any place in the transmission for that kicker shaft.

[scra99tch]

I actually have thought of this my self.  If and when I get a garage I with a few machine tools I believe something could be fashioned up. 

I would be even better if you could integrate it with the electric start.

[Damnyankee]

I posed this question a couple of years ago. I swore then that I had seen an Ambo or eldo with a kick starter. Everyone here said no, never. The more I thought about the more I was sure I had seen it but I didn't want to continue the discussion cause I just wasn't 100% positive. I still believe I saw what I saw but it really doesn't matter now anyway, the kick starter is a dead issue these days.

[dbabic8]

I remember reading article about MG in 67/68 and the article noted that this was the first 'big bike' with only electric start. As far as I know, know big twins were ever fitted with kick starters. I do not remember any place in the transmission for that kicker shaft.

yep, I checked the spot from the illustration on my block and there's no hole or a sign of it...

[Lannis]

I remember reading article about MG in 67/68 and the article noted that this was the first 'big bike' with only electric start. As far as I know, know big twins were ever fitted with kick starters. I do not remember any place in the transmission for that kicker shaft.

yep, I checked the spot from the illustration on my block and there's no hole or a sign of it...

I've found backup kickstarters to be VERY seldom useful on big bikes.

The only counterexamples in my experience were my 1965 ElectraGlide and a 1975 MkIII Commando.   Both of these had very weak, poorly designed starters that were really meant to augment the kickstarter at best.

On decently designed bikes like the Loops, by the time the bike is in too bad a shape to electric-start, it won't kick-start either ....

Lannis

[dibble]

I've seen Dutch(?) army V50s advertised with kickstarts, I'm interested because ditching the starter and running a small battery would save a lot of weight.

[Amboman]

If there was ever a kickstarter for the big twins, I'm sure that one of the guys like Ivar De Gier, Greg Field, Mark Etheridge, or Mike Harper would know about it. The first two have literally wrote the book about Guzzis, the latter two have seen more Guzzis in their lifetimes than probably anyone else in the US. 

[Damnyankee]

If these guys did why couildn't Guzzi have done it?  

http://www.v35-bergmeister.com/html/introduction.html

http://www.v35-bergmeister.com/html/mc_kick_starter.html

[Amboman]

It's not that they couldn't, more that they didn't need to. Big honkin' battery and a car starter - why bother with a kickstarter?

[EV L]

BMW did it.

[Lannis]

BMW did it.

An olive branch to the traditionalists.  Didn't last long, then they quit.  People didn't really want them ....

Lannis

[dbabic8]

It's not that they couldn't, more that they didn't need to. Big honkin' battery and a car starter - why bother with a kickstarter?

...why bother... why is dog licking his own balls?

Because he CAN!

I, myself, like to have the choice. If I had a kickstarter, i'd never use electric one...

[Tobit]

I drew one up in the '80s as a project to keep old pencilcad drafting skills sharp.  Maybe I can find it.  BMW had them available for their twins at some point, can't be too different.

The Bendix engagement on the flywheel ring gear was what gave me mental fits as I recall.

Not a machinist, not a design engineer.  Just playing with my drafting tools at the time.

[Two Checks]

It's not that they couldn't, more that they didn't need to. Big honkin' battery and a car starter - why bother with a kickstarter?

...why bother... why is dog licking his own balls?

Because he CAN!

I, myself, like to have the choice. If I had a kickstarter, i'd never use electric one...

The real answer is because dogs can't make a fist.

In 75 Gold Wings had kickers.
Pretty much useless.
Guzzi did away with them in the 60s. One again the Italians are ahead of everyone else.

[Amboman]

BMW did it.

BMW also had a weak 180 watt charging system on the R75/5 (vs. 300 watt on the V700/Ambo/Eldo) and only an 18 amp battery (vs. 32 amp). They needed a backup, the Loop did not.

[brlawson]

Good way to get a knee in the chin. The most amazing thing I ever saw was a gentleman kick starting a Vincent. It took him 5 minutes and great care in the pre-kick motions. He said it took some time and a couple of trips over the handlebars before he found the magic combination.

[Bikebits]

BMW did it.

BMW also had a weak 180 watt charging system on the R75/5 (vs. 300 watt on the V700/Ambo/Eldo) and only an 18 amp battery (vs. 24 amp). They needed a backup, the Loop did not.

I ordered a Canadian-spec BMW R100 from the factory in the spring of 1984. The kick starter was a $75 option which was not available in the US. I actually had some know-it-alls tell me I couldn't have gotten it that way from the factory.

It wouldn't really start the bike unless it was already hot on a warm day. It was however useful for breaking the stiction before using the starter at temperatures down around freezing. The starter struggled to do that on its own.

[dibble]

I used to despatch an XT 550 so had to kick start it maybe 75 times a day and my "other bike" is a Honda CRM.

 I think kick starting a bike may be more "dashing" somehow but kicking my XL600r for hours was just a sweaty pain.

I was pulled on the XT by the Police in one of their anti courier sweeps once, an enormously fat bike copper looked over the bike and noticed the lights didn't work.
I explained it was a it was a total loss system and the engine wasn't running so he gave it half to 3/4 throttle and jumped on the kickstart, now XT kickstarts have this thing if you don't kick all the way and keep them down.

The bike kicked back with incredible violence smashing the coppers knee into the (XT600 front end) master cylinder, he rolled around on the ground clutching his knee then curiously his groin.

I believe he had  lost control of his bladder........


I was allowed to go on my way and the XT was topped up with extra special full synthetic that weekend.

[pehayes]

I believe that some of the Europe delivery smallblocks came with the kickstarter shown.  Best bet would be to contact Teo Lamers Motors in Nijmegen, Netherlands.  They have a mountain of parted out smallblocks and would likely supply the bits for you.  http://www.tlm.nl

Patrick

[pete roper]

Yes, it was an option on some of the smallblocks but I think that it was ONLY ones for the military and maybe police. Nothing for the big blocks and no practical way of fitting one. I considered it donkey's years ago when I'd just come off pommy bikes but soon realized it was a pointless thing fueled by paranoia.

As Pat says, try Teo or one of the mobs that specializes in wrecking out old stuff.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

I think kick starting a bike may be more "dashing" somehow but kicking my XL600r for hours was just a sweaty pain.

I still have my XL600r. Yes, my right knee is permanently damaged from that dang thing. I have actually had people ask me why I leave the key in it.  One time it backfired and took out the kick start gears AND the clutch basket gear. What an expensive pain.
I use(d) it mainly off road, so I didn't complain much because of the weight saved. But for a street bike, I'll pay the penalty of the few extra pounds.
BTW, If you take the resistor out of the spark plug cap, it reduces the tendency to backfire and break things (knees, boots, gears, etc).

[silver redspine]

On the right bike, with the right motor, kickstartin' is a luvly t'ing....very satisfying, and a great way to impress less savvy folks. My Nuovo Falcone, being a nice soft single  with 6.8/1 compression and a decompression lever is a consistent 1-kicker. Ease 'er over TDC on the lever, and push (don't really even have to "kick") the pedal, that ol' 20lb. flywheel starts spinnin', and she lights right off...every damn time. Amazed onlookers, hoping for you to struggle and embarass yourself, are left with nothin' to do but say "Awwwright...! One kick", while you chug off, reveling in smug satisfaction.

[Amboman]

I've been reaquainted with the "joys" of kickstarting with the XT500 I bought back in Oct. '09. When it's cold or at operating temp. it's a one-kick starter, in between it a crapshoot. A few times it just would not start no matter how many times I kicked it or at what throttle opening. Opened the nut on the bottom of the float bowl and let a little fuel flow out, tightened it back up and it fired off first kick. Still sorting the old beast, so it doesn't really surprise me.

It's only kicked back very lightly once and that was because I ignored the "indicator and window" setup it's equipped with.

[redhunter]

The '75 Suzuki RE5 Wankel rotary powered bike came with electric and a kick start.  However I takes someone over 250 pounds or more to jump on it to start.  It only works with the clutch engaged. Not many can start by the kick start. I have never been able.    

[Tobit]

Learned a lesson about '70's Montesa Cota trials bikes and their kickstarters.  On the shaft running through the cases is a hard steel pawl that is the stop for the shaft.  It rests against a boss cast into the dividing wall between the alternator flywheel and the countershaft sprocket. 

It was very dashing to have your kickstart mounted on the shaft really far forward so it was at about 45degrees when tucked away.  Out of the way too.  Problem was, as I found out on two Malcolm Rathmel 348s I bought for AHRMA is that with the kickstart in this position, if you kicked it through until it was perpendicular to the ground, the steel pawl punched a hole through the case and let water, mud, chain lube, tadpoles, etc into the alternator/flywheel and points.  No start, no run, you push.  "5"

Both 348s had holed cases.  Moral is, keep your kickstart mounted almost vertical and work around it.  Besides, a Cota in good tune would just need a little bump on the lever to get it burbling happily.

[pete roper]

The '75 Suzuki RE5 Wankel rotary powered bike came with electric and a kick start.  However I takes someone over 250 pounds or more to jump on it to start.  It only works with the clutch engaged. Not many can start by the kick start. I have never been able.    

lot of frictional losses inside a Wankel what with the gears inside the rotors and all the rotor seals etc, Having three firing strokes per revolution tends to cancel the problem out a bit bit they're still pretty dirty and wastefull. Great fun though, we were about to jump for an RX-8 but Jude got run into in her EOS so it's in the panelbeater for the next six weeks

Pete

[Dean Rose]

You can have mine if I ever find it.

Dean

[guzzisteve]

Years ago at the National in Sylvan Grove I saw a Guzzi w/ a 185# push starter!!

[charlie b]

My old CB500-4 had a kickstart, and, it really worked.  Weak battery and charging system meant that if it didn't light off on the first rev the battery would be too weak to do any more.

I frequently kick started it.  4 small cylinders meant it didn't take a lot to kick it over and it never kicked back.

There were those times when it would refuse to start, especially when cold and damp.  One below freezing morning when I had to get to work I finally got some starting fluid to get it going (after my leg almost going numb from kicking that dam thing).  Am glad I didn't blow the engine

I am glad to not have a kick starter and a decent size battery on my big block.

charlie

[cruzziguzzi]

850 Commando, Superglide and a TT500... no more kick starts for me but I do understand the desire as I still pine for carbs and push rods on all things internal combustion. Though I will gladly take injectors on my diesels - as long as the pump is mechanical!

[rodekyll]

I find push starting is about as good as kickstarting some of these bikes.  My old ambo was push started regularly whether it needed it or not.  That Marelli starter was more of a backup device than a main player.  After busting up my arch (didn't retard the magneto) on an old Triumph, I began using the push method as my main starter.

[charlie b]

What gear do you guys push start?  2nd, 3rd?

[RayB]

BMW also had a weak 180 watt charging system on the R75/5 (vs. 300 watt on the V700/Ambo/Eldo) and only an 18 amp battery (vs. 32 amp). They needed a backup, the Loop did not.

Yes, the /5s had a weak charging system but it can be managed. The BMW kickstarters, however, were fragile and were sometimes left useless...that is if the bike was fitted with one.

Not a fan of KS on displacements above 650cc. My BSAs had 'em and when things got a little hard to start in cooler weather, it was a workout. Also, ever kick start an XLCH when the points advance counterweights were a little rusted? It could launch you. You never let those weights get rusty twice.

[cruzziguzzi]

What gear do you guys push start?  2nd, 3rd?

Before learning that under no circumstances can I use my Calvin driving lights at low RPM, I was able to find that 3rd was best for the push start. I'll not get into the learning curve regarding the hard bags and push starting.

[Atavar]

I've seen Dutch(?) army V50s advertised with kickstarts, I'm interested because ditching the starter and running a small battery would save a lot of weight.

Many of us Guzzi riders would save more weight with a 1300 calorie diet for a month...  :O

[rodekyll]

2nd or 3rd gear, walking speed, and be ready to pull in the clutch as soon as it bumps.

[chuck peterson]

if memory serves me well...there is almost nothing so satisfying as kick starting a Norton 850, even if it had a starter.

[JohninVT`]

I weighed 145lbs in high school and rode a Norton Commando.  That was 20+ years and 40lbs ago.  Kicking tempermental big twins is way, way, way over-rated.  The chance that you will successfully kickstart a Norton the first time is inversely proportional to how many people are watching.  If you've somehow convinced a pretty girl to go for a ride with you, you are doomed.  You can kick until you feel like puking.  It will almost heave you over the bars when it backfires but your knee buckling saves you from actually going over.  You will get so sweaty in your leather jacket that you take it off and then your foot will slip off the front of the lever as you kick.  You'll get the lever in the back of your calf so hard you scream.  Eventually, the pretty girl wanders off and the instant she does, the bike will fire just to spite you and your akward teen lust.  

I don't care if a Guzzi starter adds 100 pounds.  Thumb the starter, bump start or call a cab.          

[chuck peterson]

well, maybe that's why it was so satisfying to me...I didn't own it and have to do it all the time!