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Author Topic: 2013 V7 Stone first ride  (Read 13128 times)
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« on: September 19, 2012, 11:24:05 PM »
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 We just got one off the truck today, so as a  service to my loyal customers I forced my self to ride it to a local bike/car night.  I know, I know, but its all part of the job.
 The small blocks have held a spot in my heart for a while, I have been riding and enjoying a 2012 lately.
 All the passerby comments were favorable, everyone loves the cast wheels.  Overall styling is understated cool.
 Now as for the ride, the new motor and the electronic throttle ROCK.  This bike is definitely punching above its weight.
  The new airbox under the seat kind of has the same effect as a subwoofer under a car seat.  I can feel the intake honk when cranked on more than hear it.  It has more torque in the ranges needed for urban work, and it may be smoother on the highway.  As I got close to the shop to  put it away, I was thinking,  this bike would  just run away from my V7 Sports under most any conditions. And be easier to ride...  Damn progress.  Its always making things better.
 Overall 
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 11:27:23 PM »
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 11:30:15 PM »
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Thank you for this great write up.  It rides as great as it looks, can't wait to see one at my local dealer. 
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 11:50:32 PM »
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 not much in the pics dept, other than the now  expected pic at the front door.   I mean come  on, hasnt every body seen pics of the bike by now?   I suck at photog, so dont do much of it.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.470980019580929.112157.163894960289438&type=1&ref=notif&notif_t=like h
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 12:40:11 AM »
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What happened to the hose on the evap canister that runs up to the airbox (next to the ECU)?  Canister's there, but no hose.  Is it OK to suck unfiltered air now?
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 01:40:17 AM »
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I think it's interesting that it may be capable of beating the original V7 Sport. That might (maybe) silence the nay-sayers somewhat.

40 years later.  Grin

Is the oil capacity still miniscule ?
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 02:00:34 AM »
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Thanks for the report.

Patiently waiting.
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 03:10:56 AM »
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 07:14:44 AM »
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What is the electronic throttle about? It looks like it still has throttle cables.
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 07:28:43 AM »
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It is a happy thing if that is what you want. It's not my sort of motorbike but from a 'Service' standpoint it really is a very nice piece of engineering.

I know that a lot of people view stuff like fuel injection and electronic equipment as deeply suspicious and prone to leaving you stranded in urine drinking country but in all honesty this isn't the case. The old maxim that tou can fix points and carbs at the side of the road is I'm afraid one of those old furphy's that persists. Quite frankly there are few people around nowadays lik JB who would do a clutch at the side of the road and fewer still in the general scheme of things who could even adjust points or replace a throttle or clutch cable at the side of the road.

No, I'm not suggesting for a minute that this lack of ability is a fault, simply stating that in this day and age, while some common sense and fault finding ability should be necessary before you are allowed to operate a vehicle the ability to carry out a roadside rebuild is NOT nowadays a requirement, it's 2012 not 1912!

Generally speaking modern electronics are very reliable, even Italian ones! My Mana is probably the second most complex, electronically, bike on the market. It has three on-board computers that talk to each other and the scan-tool through can-bus lines. The one time it has let me down it was the boring old DC starter motor that shat itself!

The new V7 is a great bike, if that is what you want. If they were to stick a real gearbox and final drive in it and put it in a 'Mini Stelvio' package I'd buy the first one off the boat. As it is it doesn't tick MY boxes but it s, undeniably, an improvement on the last model. (Looks cooler too! )

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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 07:29:43 AM »
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I believe the new throttle body has the ECU and a few sensors all incorporated in one unit.

I don't think he meant fly by wire.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 07:31:32 AM »
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What is the electronic throttle about? It looks like it still has throttle cables.

No, it's not RBW. What it is is an integrated throttle body, ECU and stepper system that is basically 'Set and Forget'. Simple and easy. Brilliant.

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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 07:41:08 AM »
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I like it a lot.  Seems MG had a hard time dceiding what to configure their small block bike since the demise of the Breva.  First white then black, green cafe, red&white and now matte black.  The new powertrain not withstanding.

What is the origin of the monicker "Stone"?
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 08:06:23 AM »
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I thought I read it was supposed to convey rock solid reliability, as in a Stone axe.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 10:55:47 AM »
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No, it's not RBW. What it is is an integrated throttle body, ECU and stepper system that is basically 'Set and Forget'. Simple and easy. Brilliant.

VDG
Pete it sort of is RBW,  the cables operate a potentiometer in the throttle unit, and the controller decides how far to move the blade. There is a limp home, function that allows the cable to control it up to maybe 20% opening if the electronics let you down.  Its a basic kind of system similar to what  eusro cars had in the early part of the 2000's. Then they went to  no cables at all. Some  other bikes may use just a TPS at the grip and be full on RBW, I dont know .  That is std now for cars, the gas pedal is just a sensor, with no connection to the throttle blade except digitally
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 11:26:35 AM »
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The new V7 is a great bike, if that is what you want. If they were to stick a real gearbox and final drive in it and put it in a 'Mini Stelvio' package I'd buy the first one off the boat. As it is it doesn't tick MY boxes but it s, undeniably, an improvement on the last model. (Looks cooler too! )

VDG

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Anyone at Piaggio listening?
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 12:16:38 PM »
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So Mike, does that mean there its no separate stepper for idle bypass? I would think the ECM could then control idle speed directly through throttle position.
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 03:22:45 PM »
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Mike,

Thanks for your fine report!  Congrats to MG for design upgrades on the superb small block.  I look forward to seeing this bike soon.

Who knows, maybe in 2 years, when I turn 60, a new 2015 V7 would make a good birthday present?
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 03:47:44 PM »
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I expected to see a cruiser bike. Mike, is the throttle as progressive as the old cable to butterfly? Triumph uses this system of cable to computer to stepper motor and the throttle is like a switch... on-off.
A solution looking for a problem.

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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 04:18:02 PM »
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Pete it sort of is RBW,  the cables operate a potentiometer in the throttle unit, and the controller decides how far to move the blade. There is a limp home, function that allows the cable to control it up to maybe 20% opening if the electronics let you down.  Its a basic kind of system similar to what  eusro cars had in the early part of the 2000's. Then they went to  no cables at all. Some  other bikes may use just a TPS at the grip and be full on RBW, I dont know .  That is std now for cars, the gas pedal is just a sensor, with no connection to the throttle blade except digitally

Interesting. I didn't have that explained to me at the course in Sydney, I thought the butterfly was still cable controlled. It's the same system they've been using on some if the Aprilia scooters for a while now. It certainly seems to be pretty reliable and *virtually* foolproof.

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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 07:47:06 PM »
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 Pete I have not had a course on it so may be I am full up, but the unit visually is just like  the stuff we see on cars every day.  The cables are on the right side, the motor that drives the blade is on the left.  The smarts are in the middle.
 I found it to be not at all choppy or hard to modulate . And there is no reason for an external idle device when the throttle blade is under computer control.( It does that too)
  Well sorted  mapping and throttle controls, IMHO
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 08:44:45 PM »
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And there is no reason for an external idle device when the throttle blade is under computer control.( It does that too)

I'm trying to think if I've seen any exceptions.

Of course, a system like this also lays the groundwork for throttle based traction control too for the same reason.
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2012, 08:51:27 PM »
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I guess this gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Getting Stoned"?
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2012, 09:33:14 PM »
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Pete it sort of is RBW,  the cables operate a potentiometer in the throttle unit, and the controller decides how far to move the blade. There is a limp home, function that allows the cable to control it up to maybe 20% opening if the electronics let you down.  Its a basic kind of system similar to what  eusro cars had in the early part of the 2000's. Then they went to  no cables at all. Some  other bikes may use just a TPS at the grip and be full on RBW, I dont know .  That is std now for cars, the gas pedal is just a sensor, with no connection to the throttle blade except digitally

So it's no longer a traditional throttle-cable-butterfly connection?  It's a partial ride by wire (RBW)?

I'm a little sad.  Part of the 750's appeal is that it's a throw-back.  A neanderthal of motorcycles.  A coelacanth.  A little like the Royal Enfield. 

Bravely resisting the push to modernity. 
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 10:14:14 PM »
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So it's no longer a traditional throttle-cable-butterfly connection?  It's a partial ride by wire (RBW)?

I'm a little sad.  Part of the 750's appeal is that it's a throw-back.  A neanderthal of motorcycles.  A coelacanth.  A little like the Royal Enfield.   Shocked

Bravely resisting the push to modernity.

We better hope its very little like the Royal Enfield, like the 2010 Classic I got rid of to be replaced by the baby Breva.
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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 01:48:41 AM »
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All the money spent on this modern techno stuff and now they don't have to paint them.. good deal Huh


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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 06:51:43 AM »
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No manual spark advance, kick starter or manual oil pump*?

Hah! A Poser bike for the masses!

(*but optional at extra cost)


Don't laugh.  Like a manual spark advance, Guzzi had a manual throttle stop (the "choke") on previous V7s, all because it "was too hard" (?) to modify the map to raise rpms on a cold bike. 

That's a modern version of an archaic design.
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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 07:55:10 AM »
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Don't laugh.  Like a manual spark advance, Guzzi had a manual throttle stop (the "choke") on previous V7s, all because it "was too hard" (?) to modify the map to raise rpms on a cold bike. 

That's a modern version of an archaic design.

Actually no, it has nothing to do with the map or enrichment, it didn't have an idle air control valve.
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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 09:59:37 AM »
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Don't laugh.  Like a manual spark advance, Guzzi had a manual throttle stop (the "choke") on previous V7s, all because it "was too hard" (?) to modify the map to raise rpms on a cold bike.
As said, it doesn't exist a "map to raise rpms on a cold bike".
If the throttle body has a stepper motor, the ECU can keep the engine at the RPM he wants whenever he wants.
If it hasn't, the ECU can only enrich the mixture on a cold bike, and that's not a guarantee, so there is the manual throttle stop.
The Ducati Monster, for example, lost the "choke" only with the 696 / 1100 models.
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 10:55:12 AM »
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Ooops, yeah, I meant to post more on that when I got on the laptop - as opposed to my phone.

A lot of people seem to confuse how a choke works with how EFI systems address cold start.

A carbureted fuel system uses a choke to block off air but add lots of extra fuel for cold start enrichment. The carb is set with a throttle plate that remains cracked open adjusted just to the point that is sufficient for proper hot idle operation. Adding THAT much more fuel allows it to run, in the cold or run too fast or stumble at the same setting once warmed (not sure why it actually runs faster in those conditions).

HOWEVER - EFI systems automatically adjust for cold temperature and every one I've ever seen either uses an Idle Air Control Valve/Bypass Valve and/or on late-model systems with throttle-by-wire, just adjusts the throttle plate in order to control engine rpm at idle. I've always assumed the main difference was in the amount of enrichment, i.e. that the EFI mapping doesn't have to go quite as pig rich as a Carb, but I'm not positive. I just know that they control the actual rpm strictly through air management.

As said, it doesn't exist a "map to raise rpms on a cold bike".
If the throttle body has a stepper motor, the ECU can keep the engine at the RPM he wants whenever he wants.
If it hasn't, the ECU can only enrich the mixture on a cold bike, and that's not a guarantee, so there is the manual throttle stop.
The Ducati Monster, for example, lost the "choke" only with the 696 / 1100 models.

FWIW I've still got a fast idle lever on our 2011 Ducati M696 ABS model.

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« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 01:24:47 PM »
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Now that we have iron in town; time to actually do a side by side comparison with the old V7 to see what they really do.
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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 02:50:16 PM »
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Speaking of paint, I always preferred white on the new model V7.
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 02:52:10 PM »
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Speaking of paint, I always preferred white on the new model V7.

Me too.  I am not a fan of flat black paint on a car or a motorcycle.  Just doesn't ring my bell.
But, the white V7 is very attractive to my eyes. 
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 04:58:09 PM »
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I talked with Steve Foote at All Seasons Motorcycles, Wooster, Ohio, this afternoon. He reported he is getting in a white V7 Stone next week. It will be a demo, "not for sale." I'm planning on a trip as soon as it's in. He said to watch the web site for updates. http://www.motorcyclesohio.com/sales.html

Anxiously waiting,
Brent
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 05:35:30 PM »
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Kev, I was trying to answer you when it appears the servers overloaded again.

Yes, that photo is from Piaggio originally, and the photo link is from my web site. I use a software to upload posts that automatically places a watermark on all photos, and I was writing about the Moto Guzzi V7 line--that's how I came to use the photo. 99.9% of the photos on my site are mine. I could not find the original link to Guzzi, but knew of the one on my site. Since we were talking about white V7 Stones, I thought it important to put up a photo of one, even though it contains my watermark. If you have the original link to a white V7 Stone, and would like to post the photo, I'd be happy to take this image down.

Brent
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 05:43:38 PM »
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I'd turn that auto watermark feature off.

I've been a photographer for $$$.

Nothing worse than seeing your work claimed by others.

I've found several of my images on the web, and with no credit to me.

Surely you can create a folder on your site that doesn't watermark other people's work.

As a "writer, photographer, and independent producer", you should have a higher than average sense of copyright.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 05:45:26 PM by rocker59 » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 05:45:55 PM »
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Okay, Michael. For the sake of argument, I will remove the photo with the erroneous copyright. I was only trying to contribute to the conversation by providing an image of the white V7 Stone.

Brent

Note: This has also been fixed on my web site. However, I cannot do anything about Kev's "quote."
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2012, 06:09:26 PM »
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Thanks Brent.
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« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2012, 06:14:03 PM »
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You're welcome, Michael. And ... you're right about the copyright issues.

I find the Wild Guzzi community to be very informative and passionate about the brand, and have learned quite a lot here. I'm looking forward to participating and sharing in the future ... like when I get to take that white V7 Stone for a test ride. Although ... I'm leaning towards the yellow and black V7 Special. We'll see.

Brent
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rocker59
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 06:14:56 PM »
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Michael T.
Aux Arcs
1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100, 2004 Moto Guzzi LeMans Nero Corsa
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt
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