Author Topic: Stelvio and 8V Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E  (Read 53116 times)

Offline canuck1969

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2013, 08:33:25 AM »
I converted leafman's tutorial into a PDF.  If anyone wants a copy you can download it from here...


Spark Plug Cap Replacement: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmm8mnhfr3p9ipr/Stelvio%20NTX%20NGK%20SB05E%20Spark%20Cap%20Replacement.pdf

« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 09:00:11 AM by canuck1969 »

Offline canuck1969

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2013, 06:57:38 AM »
Got a small issue.

Picked up the SB50EP variety in Canada since the non "P" variety is not available here.  Heard of many guys putting these in, however, the boot on the end of the plug is larger and does not fit in the plug hole.  Does this just need to be forced in or just removed.  I removed it for now and the bike runs perfectly fine....actually sounds better than before so I may have had an issue.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 07:25:46 AM »
Darn,  I wish you had just ordered those off amazon and gotten the SB05E.  

I dont think I'd force them down in the plug well unless the fit not too tight.  Getting the cap off and out may be trouble later.

Regarding the sealing boot, I don't know what issues you may encounter.  You do not need a seal for the plug well itself since it is already open through the cooling fins.  The only utility that I see for that lower boot would be to seal out water from entering the cap and saturating the plug connector terminal inside.

That may or may not be an issue.  Riding in the rain will tell.

This is where I got mine.  Under $10 for two, shipped.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=me%3DA131TE6FZZS8Q&field-keywords=SB05E

« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 07:37:27 AM by leafman60 »

Offline canuck1969

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 08:34:06 AM »
Unfortunately Amazon does not ship to Canada (at least not with out a heafty shipping charge). 

Looks like on the Canadian version the rubber boot on the bottom of the cap flares out and actually covers the bottom of the cap with a small hole for the plug. Guessing for extra water protection. The US version, the bottom of the cap is fully exposed and the rubber only covers the sides.  I am just going to cut the flarred end of the boot off...instant US version...I hope.

Agreed that with the drain at the bottom should not be an issue but will give it a try anyways.


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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 08:34:06 AM »

Offline HOG4DNR

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2013, 01:53:01 PM »
I just bought the SB05E from Sparkplugs.com for less then $8 shipped.

Offline canuck1969

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2013, 04:04:05 PM »
Well, tried cutting the boot but no go.  Still too big.  Took it completely off.  Then started the bike, took the nozzle off the garden hoses and soaked both heads with a constant stream of water directed towards the plug opening.  Had it pouring out the drain holes for about 2 minutes straight.  Not one hiccup.  Pretty sure that is about worse case scenario so not worried about riding in the rain anymore. 

Bike actually feels smoother, but then again probably just my imagination.....


Offline Stormtruck2

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2013, 04:07:56 PM »
 

Bike actually feels smoother, but then again probably just my imagination.....



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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2013, 06:53:27 PM »
If the issue is simply the sealing grommets around the bottom of the Bakelite tubes then these are easily procured simply by buying a pair of right angle NGK caps, (Sorry I can't offhand remember the part #.) and using the grommets off them. Give the caps to one of yer mates with a 2V bike for spares. You will probably find they have some spare grommets around if you ask as the first thing to get boogered when a 2 valver falls over is the plug caps.

Pete

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2013, 08:25:40 PM »

Bike actually feels smoother, but then again probably just my imagination.....



Mine runs better too.

I think the problem with the stock caps is one that's not always due to stress created during removal.  Like I said earlier, I never pulled on my wires.  I also have 5 or 6 thousand miles since my last valve check/adjust and plug removal.  If plug removal caused the problem, that's a lot of mileage before the damaged cap showed itself.

The latest cap that failed was one that had not been removed after it was installed to replace my first faulty cap.

My Stelvio has about 10k miles now. I'm wondering if there is a crack in the internal parts of the stock set-up caused by the engine vibration. 

When I have the time, I'm going to dissect the parts with a surgical knife and see if I can discover the fault.

Offline canuck1969

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2013, 08:35:19 PM »
If the issue is simply the sealing grommets around the bottom of the Bakelite tubes then these are easily procured simply by buying a pair of right angle NGK caps, (Sorry I can't offhand remember the part #.) and using the grommets off them. Give the caps to one of yer mates with a 2V bike for spares. You will probably find they have some spare grommets around if you ask as the first thing to get boogered when a 2 valver falls over is the plug caps.

Pete

Pete,  guess the million dollar question is how important are these sealing caps at the bottom (plug end) of the bakelite tube.  Installed them without the grommet and flooded it with water and everything was fine.  Do they serve another purpose???

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2013, 09:11:56 PM »
Canuck, the ends on the SB05E seal around the sparkplug.

Remember this picture posted earlier that looks at the end of the cap that goes on the plug ?  Notice the little "Water Proof" on the box.



If your water test caused no problems, that's good.  You know how things work out, though.  When you're way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in a rain storm is when the problem will occur ! lol

You may be okay, though.  I'll look at mine again this weekend.

I thought you could easily order from amazon up there in CA.  Hey I'll be coming to the Great White North later this summer.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 09:31:30 PM by leafman60 »

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2013, 09:59:08 AM »
The seals do serve another purpose.  According to my VW training, they add a ring of insulation to help thwart carbon tracking and spark leakage.  Remember that 'lectricity is lazy stuff.  It wants to find the easy route to ground.  Any crud in the plug well, especially when it gets damp, provides the easy path -- just like routing your plug wires over metal surfaces does.  You know that an improperly routed plug wire can make a light show at night when wet as it shorts out along its path.  The same thing can happen at the wire ends, especially with resistor caps.  The rubber ring interrupts it.

I'd guess that if the waterhose test was used on the same bike after adding some metal shavings to the mix you could make it short out.

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2013, 08:32:25 AM »

canuck IS on to something here.  The much-used SB05E does not snugly fit and seal around the plug insulator.  The  plugs used with the Stelvio are 10 mm, not 14 mm.  SD is for 10-12 mm, SB is for 14mm.

The SD is apparently very hard to find, though.  I'm gonna look further into this and see if I can procure a reasonable source.

This is an SB05E installed on a Stelvio CR8EKB plug.  It looks tight and it is close but there is a small space between the rubber sealing boot and the plug insulator. Water could penetrate.


This is an SB05E WITHOUT the sealing boot installed on the CR8EKB plug.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 08:33:04 AM by leafman60 »

NoVector

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2013, 11:15:51 AM »
When I have the time, I'm going to dissect the parts with a surgical knife and see if I can discover the fault.

You beat me to it.  I was going to ask if you had measured excessive resistance on the old caps, but it sounds like you're going to dig into it the old fashion way (get a knife!).   ;D

Looking forward to hearing back on the cause of death.   ;-T

-NV

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2013, 08:17:11 PM »
I just got word from an NGK dealer that the SD05E is not available in the US.  The SD05F IS available.  It is the same as the SD05E except the cap is designed for threaded spark plug terminals.  I'm ordering a pair of SD05F caps.  I will remove the lower rubber seals from the SD caps and install them on my SB05E caps on the Stelvio.  That way, I will have a good, tight moisture seal around the plug insulator.

Pics will come later.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 08:23:54 PM by leafman60 »

wjjones

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2013, 07:45:09 AM »
 :pop

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2013, 07:51:52 AM »
You beat me to it.  I was going to ask if you had measured excessive resistance on the old caps, but it sounds like you're going to dig into it the old fashion way (get a knife!).   ;D

Looking forward to hearing back on the cause of death.   ;-T

-NV

All of the ones that I have seen fail, go bad because the insulation cracks and they arc to the valve cover.


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Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2013, 08:59:21 AM »
I have the new seals etc.  Pics to follow.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2013, 09:19:07 AM »
When servicing 8V motors I have noticed a clearish yellowish material that has oozed out of the caps from heat.  This is on the newer flat top 90* factory caps.  Don't know if this is causing any spark issues but makes you wonder about the materials they use. These caps worked fine but for how long.
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2013, 10:18:04 AM »
When servicing 8V motors I have noticed a clearish yellowish material that has oozed out of the caps from heat.  This is on the newer flat top 90* factory caps.  Don't know if this is causing any spark issues but makes you wonder about the materials they use. These caps worked fine but for how long.

Yuch, sounds like some sort of yeast infection.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2013, 07:15:35 PM »
That might be dielectric grease.

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2013, 10:46:33 PM »
Okay, here we go.

The sealing boot of the SB05E does not fit tightly around the stock Stelvio spark plug.  


The proper cap would be an SD05E but they are not available in US.  The solution is to swap a smaller sealing boot from an SD05F cap (that is available) onto the SB05E.  The SD05F will not fit the terminal of the stock plug but its boot fits tightly around the stock plug.




Boots are easily swapped between the SB05E and SD05F


A little dielectric grease will help installation of cap onto plug


A grab tab can be fashioned to the cap to facilitate removal later


Inserting new cap into plug well may require slight working but it fits easily
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:18:05 PM by leafman60 »

wjjones

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2013, 04:50:07 PM »
:pop

I was monitoring this thread and eventually my bike broke down with the same problem.  Some electrical tape got me going again.  I think I'm going to order the OEM cap and carry electrical tape or silicone tape.  I may wrap a couple winds of tape around the caps as a preventive measure, though. 

 BTW, I don't think I did anything to damage the cap. 

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2013, 02:22:04 AM »
the oem costs 10 x what the ngk costs
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2013, 08:10:25 AM »
I was monitoring this thread and eventually my bike broke down with the same problem.  Some electrical tape got me going again.  I think I'm going to order the OEM cap and carry electrical tape or silicone tape.  I may wrap a couple winds of tape around the caps as a preventive measure, though.  

 BTW, I don't think I did anything to damage the cap.  

The NGK option is an inexpensive one that seems to work better than the stock set-up.  Buying both the SBO5E and the SD05F (for the smaller rubber seal) will cost maybe $10-15 max for both cylinders total.

You can wrap the stock wires/cap in tape and/or install some heat-shrink tubing over them but I am not sure that will always work 100 percent.  I'm thinking that some of the problems occur because the stock wire actually breaks internally at the junction with the cap where there is connecting hardware.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 11:53:43 AM by leafman60 »

wjjones

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2013, 06:18:34 PM »
The NGK option is an inexpensive one that seems to work better than the stock set-up.  Buying both the SBO5E and the SD05F (for the smaller rubber seal) will cost maybe $10-15 max for both cylinders total.

You can wrap the stock wires/cap in tape and/or install some heat-shrink tubing over them but I am not sure that will always work 100 percent.  I'm thinking that some of the problems occur because the stock wire actually breaks internally at the junction with the cap where there is connecting hardware.

Its a long story, but i was forced to rely on silicone "Rescue Tape" as a repair while i wait to get into the dealer for the repair under warranty.  I have ridden 3,000 miles and gone to three rallies (including Sturgis) with the patch job. The bike goes in the 29th for the spark plug cap and the aux light mount.

Offline nikwax

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2013, 07:00:03 PM »
After the local dealer destroyed my spark plug wires via rough handling, my experienced former dealer shop, who are undoing the damage, says that Guzzi spark plug wires have been an issue for a while, and they make their own spark plugs wires (they put new ends on them). Looks like replacing the wires is a checklist item for a Guzzi owner.
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Offline Pazzo Gatto

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2013, 07:58:22 PM »
After reading this thread, I am leaning toward getting the NGK SD05F caps and either the CR8EK or CR8EIX (Iridium) and skip the whole part about the SB05E caps.  Anything wrong with just converting over to the threaded end spark plug equivalents and the threaded SD05F caps?  What is so sacred about sticking with the OEM old style plug ends?

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2013, 08:07:33 PM »
Perhaps you could change to different terminals.  I cant see why the terminal design alone would make a difference if the other plug parameters are the same.

The SD05F caps will not fit the terminals of the stock Stelvio NTX sparkplugs.  

The sparkplugs have the push-on terminals and the SD05F fits the screw-on terminal plugs.  SB05E fits the push-on terminal plugs but the rubber boot is too big.  

To do it right, you get the SB05E so the cap will fit the plug and you get the SD05F for the correct size weather boot to use on the SB05E cap  Got it ?  Complicated but they are not expensive.

NGK doesn't import the proper cap with the proper weather seal which would be the SD05E in NGK nomenclature.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:16:46 PM by leafman60 »

Offline pbeesley

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Re: Stelvio Broke Down Again- Spark Plug Caps. Need NGK SB05E
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2013, 05:32:48 AM »
The SD05F caps will not fit the terminals of the stock Stelvio NTX sparkplugs.  

The sparkplugs have the push-on terminals and the SD05F fits the screw-on terminal plugs.  SB05E fits the push-on terminal plugs but the rubber boot is too big.  

I suppose you could use the CR8EIX iridium plugs with the SD05F caps. Those plugs have the screw-on terminals (or come with removable push-on terminals, at least). Does the SD05F fit under the removable cover or do you have to leave that off?
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