Author Topic: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine  (Read 23342 times)

Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2014, 07:35:53 AM »
If Guzzi was to introduce a new engine, my vote is for a water-cooled 650cc single.  Make it shaft drive, with a minimum of 40hp in a sub 450lb adv style bike.  


Man, you are being much to modest in your dreaming !  I too would LOVE to see a new Guzzi single, a Nuovo Nuovo falcone !

Shaft drive would be to complicated and heavy.  Make it a chain-drive.  40HP!?  Say what?  The current BMW 650 is at 50HP and the now-discontinued BMW/Husky Strada/Terra got 60HP with the same basic motor. The NNFalcone should shoot for about 60HP!  450LB would be tops.  My little G650X was 330 bone dry and tips the scales at about 400 fully loaded and road-worthy.  The NNFalcone could come in at 400, no, make it 395 for advertising.

I'd be happy and glady snap one up at prices comparable to the popular and long-running BMW with the Rotax-based 650 single.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:42:16 AM by leafman60 »

Offline Gary

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2014, 07:43:25 AM »
Wow! It's about time someone dragged MG kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Hehehe. Seriously though I hope they follow up with a water cooled small block "baby stelvio".
Gary Tilson

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Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2014, 07:47:38 AM »
Hey, I vote for that too !  Id take that over a single, as much as I love singles.  A re-worked 750-800 Baby Stelvio, maybe water-cooled, with serious power to compete with the 800 Triumph and BMWs would be awesome.  I may would give up my 1200 for one of those.

Offline JohninVT`

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2014, 08:04:08 AM »
A water-cooled, 650cc single wouldn't need to put out 60hp.  As long as it had 20-25% more than a DR or KLR and had shaft drive, it would be its own niche. 

A real travel bike for the adv crowd is going to require ABS, a large alternator, a 5-7 gallon tank and a beefy rear subframe.  A realistic goal for a bike fitting that description is 425-450lbs. 

IMHO, taking a KTM approach by minimizing weight and maximizing performance would be all wrong.  If Guzzi made the bike I describe, the design goal should be to simply make the most reliable, rugged, maintenance free 650cc adv bike on the market.  Style it like a baby Stelvio. 

I honestly think Guzzi would sell as many baby Stelvio's as they do V7's after a couple years. 
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Re: Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2014, 08:07:28 AM »
...he concluded in favor of the Harley.  His final comment was "The Harley is the real thing. It is what all the others are only pretending to be."

I don't know for sure what happened in this case, but I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes the winner is based on how much money the company spends on advertizing in the magazine doing the review.  And by "sometimes" I mean "you can assume".
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2014, 08:18:03 AM »
Well, in those days, the advertising budgets of the Japanese companies dwarfed that of Harley-D.  Also, Tash and most of the other young, California-based reviewers were not sympathetic to Harley products! lol

Harley did have a great ad in the late 80s.  It showed a picture of a new Harley Wide Glide with those wild flames on the tank being loaded into a wooden crate with a caption "Okay, Japan.  Here's your new prototype for next year's models"  Some joke.  A year or two later, almost the same thing was dropped onshore from the east !

Anyway, not trying to divert this into a H-D thread and get everyone worked-up. Back to the Guzzi topic at hand.

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #156 on: January 10, 2014, 09:07:03 AM »
A water-cooled, 650cc single wouldn't need to put out 60hp.  As long as it had 20-25% more than a DR or KLR and had shaft drive, it would be its own niche. 

A real travel bike for the adv crowd is going to require ABS, a large alternator, a 5-7 gallon tank and a beefy rear subframe.  A realistic goal for a bike fitting that description is 425-450lbs. 

IMHO, taking a KTM approach by minimizing weight and maximizing performance would be all wrong.  If Guzzi made the bike I describe, the design goal should be to simply make the most reliable, rugged, maintenance free 650cc adv bike on the market.  Style it like a baby Stelvio. 

I honestly think Guzzi would sell as many baby Stelvio's as they do V7's after a couple years. 

John, I think you and Leafman are on the right track.  A 450 lb, water cooled, 60 hp, mini stelvio sounds like a winner to me.  I'd hope for a twin in order to run smoother but otherwise we are in agreement.   The 1300 cc engine sounds like MG is chasing the wrong direction...more and more cc.  There would be some design challenges because such a bike needs more than the 4" suspension travel of the V7 and the frame would have to be very robust to meet your goal of rugged and reliable. 
Growing old ain't for sissies.

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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2014, 09:11:34 AM »
A water-cooled, 650cc single wouldn't need to put out 60hp.  As long as it had 20-25% more than a DR or KLR and had shaft drive, it would be its own niche. 

A real travel bike for the adv crowd is going to require ABS, a large alternator, a 5-7 gallon tank and a beefy rear subframe.  A realistic goal for a bike fitting that description is 425-450lbs. 

 

Here's the engineering problem with this idea as I see it. You either need to place the crankshaft fore-and-aft in the frame (like an old BMW R27) or use an extra set of (bevel) gears to send the power to a shaft. Neither is particularly appealing to me.
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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2014, 09:22:43 AM »
There is one simple reason for Guzzi hardly selling any bikes since the heyday of 1970"s
They were so good, there all still going. Hard for an old customer (me) to want a new one, already have perfection. I'll settle for a few more, just to lend to friends (or even foes)

Disposable bikes don't cut the mustard, but if they or anyone else theoretically betters what true Guzzisti have, I will buy one, but doubt it'll last, not sensible marketing.

Rocker
I'd buy an old L twin if I could afford it but only as ornament , gorgeous they were but not in league of a Tonti BT to actually use every day

Interesting, that. From this actual customer's POV (not "I would/might/could buy...") I in fact specifically braved poor dealer support - in networks and capabilities, not the great fellas at "Ton Up"... RIP - and known developmental issues to buy a brand new Calvin out of frustration at not finding a vintage Cali/Eldo/Amb to own and ride. Folks wouldn't give them up at a "price" so I took advantage of MG revisiting a classic.

Now, this having been my second off the dealer's floor - I'll say this; (FOR ME, PROBABLY NOT FOR YOU) Moto Guzzi is the absolute worst of any consumer product that I've ever owned at offering incompletely developed products to the consumer. While there is potential risk in any purchase, only MG seems to not only rely upon but corporately savor the emotional bond and commitment that they hope will be early established between owner and bike. Just look at the flavor of the valuable term "well/properly sorted" in any for sale listing. They're not talking accessorized, they're saying all the standard "fixes" have been completed already.

Where "new" is concerned, I think the Stelvio and Griso represent the pinnacle in squandered opportunities for MG. The money for a proper "roll-out" woulda been there were it not for the chronic MG mismanagement over the years. Now, instead of setting the motorcycling world on their ears, these two are mere footnotes in modern motorcycling.

As far as the "new" small blocks, I applaud their effort but withhold full support as long as they stick with that sad-assed "Heron" head.

MG is and always has been where they deserve and in fact want (based upon operational decisions) to be and if they are as flawed as we know them to be we are at least partially responsible as the first tier enablers. Oh well, once again... "Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please, Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch." Now, to look into that 1400 - after I comply the list warts...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:23:48 AM by cruzziguzzi »
Todd
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2014, 09:26:03 AM »
how about a v4 with 175 hp?  I think there is a corporate engine that would fill the bill.  

MG could put a bird sticker on the existing bike, or make make a completely new bike around the engine and punch it out to 1200 (or what ever), tune it for mid range power, throw it in a windtunnel and there you go.  Race a superbike/GP version and MG is winning world titles again.

I'd be happy with 140 hp longitudinal V2 that looks like a V11 Sport/LeMans and weighs 450 lb.   ;-T

I also think a supercharged horizontal single would be cool too.  As well as 120 degree transverse V2, if they could fit it in a frame.
John L
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Offline skromfols

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2014, 09:41:54 AM »
Both Honda and Harley Davidson have proven how important image and advertising are in selling motorcycles.  Honda with "You meet the nicest people" theme and Harley with the inclusion of family and heavily advertised family oriented motorcycle events.  When was the last time anyone saw a Moto Guzzi Ad on TV or in a magazine, other than a motorcycle magazine?  I bought my first motorcycle, a Honda 305 Superhawk because I saw an ad that caught my interest, which lead me to go look at the bike.  I bought my 84 Honda Magna because an ad caught my eye, even though I wasn't in the market for a new bike at the time.

A strong consideration in proposing a new motorcycle (or any vehicle) is where the customer will come from, and how that will affect sales of existing products.  If MG comes out with a new small block, what will that do to sales of the current small block bikes ?

IMHO I think improvement of the current V7 engine to add enough hp to compete with Triumph and the Japanese  750 - 850 size bikes without losing the MG image or gaining too much weight, improving the dealer network, and an increase in advertising would do wonders for MG sales. 
Stan

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Offline rocker59

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2014, 11:32:28 AM »
Start here.  Make a modern version of this:





« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 11:34:06 AM by rocker59 »
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2014, 11:36:24 AM »
Of course that would be perceived as a copy of a Ducati, even though it's not.
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Offline kirby1923

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2014, 11:37:08 AM »
Start here.  Make a modern version of this:







What's scary to me is I'm older than that bike!

mike
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Re: Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2014, 12:33:52 PM »
Of course that would be perceived as a copy of a Ducati, even though it's not.

Unfortunately that is probably the case.
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2014, 12:42:07 PM »
that's a pretty machine  ;-T
John L
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Re: Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2014, 12:47:34 PM »
Unfortunately that is probably the case.

Or was it influenced by Ducati?  I don't know the history of the Bicilindrica, but it does have a bevel drive to the cams...

Update:  After reading a little history, it seems I was right the first time, it's not a copy of a Ducati.

Update of update:  Update was typed in parallel with Rocker's post below.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 12:55:16 PM by Triple Jim »
When the Brussels sprout fails to venture from its lair, it is time to roll a beaver up a grassy slope.

Offline rocker59

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Re: Re: Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2014, 12:54:16 PM »
Or was it influenced by Ducati?  I don't know the history of the Bicilindrica, but it does have a bevel drive to the cams...

Guzzi Bicilindrica.  500GP bike raced from 1933 to 1951.  Seventeen years competitive. 120-degree V-twin.

Dr. T penned the Ducati V-twin in 1970.  In 1971 they campained some 500cc racers.  Also released the 750GT.  The Ducatis are 90-degree V-twins.  Smart and Spaggiari finished one-two at Imola in 1972 on 750s, and the rest is history...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 12:56:14 PM by rocker59 »
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Offline lrutt

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2014, 12:54:27 PM »
if anything this predates any Ducati bevel effort by at least 15 years for their single and almost 30 years for a twin.
06 HD Sporty, 06 Tri Scrambler, 01 Duc M900, 01 Hon XR650L, 94 HD Heritage, 88 Hon Hawk GT, 84 Yam Virago 1000, 82 Hon C70, 78 Hon CB750k w/sidecar, 76 Hon CB750k, 77 Guzzi Lemans, 73 Norton 850, 73 Hon Z50, 71 Tri Trophy, 70 Tri Tiger, 70 Hon CT90, 71 Yam RT1 360, 65 Hon 305 Dream

Offline oldbike54

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2014, 01:02:48 PM »
if anything this predates any Ducati bevel effort by at least 15 years for their single and almost 30 years for a twin.
How different history could be . " Carl Fogarty wins third SBK title for Moto Guzzi."
Dusty


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Offline rocker59

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2014, 01:08:35 PM »
How different history could be . " Carl Fogarty wins third SBK title for Moto Guzzi."
Dusty


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Isn't it interesting that Dr. Taglioni took a Guzzi concept dead 19 years and made something that became a perrenial winner for Ducati over the next 40 years ?

Michael T.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2014, 01:14:58 PM »
An updated Falcone and a baby Stelvio would be winners.  Both bikes would be different in the market place.  Unfortunately the big sale would have to be the follow-up with the lack of dealers. :-\

The "dealer" out here is a motorcycle seller and not a dealer.  Their service is non-item.  NO parts and no service personnel to do the work.  They suck.  The reason why I buys parts from the MG dealers on the Mainland.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2014, 03:14:01 PM »
Interesting, that. From this actual customer's POV (not "I would/might/could buy...") I in fact specifically braved poor dealer support - in networks and capabilities, not the great fellas at "Ton Up"... RIP - and known developmental issues to buy a brand new Calvin out of frustration at not finding a vintage Cali/Eldo/Amb to own and ride. Folks wouldn't give them up at a "price" so I took advantage of MG revisiting a classic.

Now, this having been my second off the dealer's floor - I'll say this; (FOR ME, PROBABLY NOT FOR YOU) Moto Guzzi is the absolute worst of any consumer product that I've ever owned at offering incompletely developed products to the consumer. While there is potential risk in any purchase, only MG seems to not only rely upon but corporately savor the emotional bond and commitment that they hope will be early established between owner and bike. Just look at the flavor of the valuable term "well/properly sorted" in any for sale listing. They're not talking accessorized, they're saying all the standard "fixes" have been completed already.

Where "new" is concerned, I think the Stelvio and Griso represent the pinnacle in squandered opportunities for MG. The money for a proper "roll-out" woulda been there were it not for the chronic MG mismanagement over the years. Now, instead of setting the motorcycling world on their ears, these two are mere footnotes in modern motorcycling.

As far as the "new" small blocks, I applaud their effort but withhold full support as long as they stick with that sad-assed "Heron" head.

MG is and always has been where they deserve and in fact want (based upon operational decisions) to be and if they are as flawed as we know them to be we are at least partially responsible as the first tier enablers. Oh well, once again... "Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please, Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch." Now, to look into that 1400 - after I comply the list warts...

A LOT of truth in that posting.

Offline JohninVT`

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2014, 03:32:38 PM »
A LOT of truth in that posting.

Indeed.  There is a reason I didn't run right out and buy another new Guzzi after my 1200 Sport was totalled.  In the first 5,000 miles the dash failed, the fork seals blew out, my rotors warped and my oil pressure sensor went.  The stock mapping also sucked around town.  I don't give a shit how many Guzzisti say problems occur with every brand.  That makes no difference when it's YOUR bike that makes three or four trips to the dealer in the first year and you spend a month waiting for warranty claims and/or parts to come from Italy.

I love how Guzzis sound.  I enjoy the relaxed, stable handling and the many beautiful details the company includes on the bikes.  I will have another Guzzi.  I just won't expect it to have Japanese reliability.
"You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star."
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2014, 06:31:23 PM »








I've always liked those too.  If you wanna hear what they sound like take a listen to the following two links.  I bet that thing was pretty mean in its day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfaXEk2nXGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfCaX-qMSA


Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2014, 06:41:53 PM »
Those youtube clips are sweet!  I'm not an engineer so bear with me.  My understanding is that the 90 degree twin gives perfect primary balance.  What does 120 degree do to make that better? 
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2014, 06:53:25 PM »
Those youtube clips are sweet!  I'm not an engineer so bear with me.  My understanding is that the 90 degree twin gives perfect primary balance.  What does 120 degree do to make that better? 

120 degree would not be better as far as balance and vibration but who cares. It is also not particularly good for rear cylinder cooling and it creates a longish motor.

I imagine it was adopted due to physical characteristics to allow desired frame shapes, dimensions and height.


Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2014, 06:58:25 PM »
120 degree would not be better as far as balance and vibration but who cares. It is also not particularly good for rear cylinder cooling and it creates a longish motor.

I imagine it was adopted due to physical characteristics to allow desired frame shapes, dimensions and height.



IIRC, the Bicilindrica had offset crankpins, so it fired like a 90 degree v-twin. Honda (much) later used the same idea on the Hawk GT.
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Offline leafman60

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Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #178 on: January 10, 2014, 07:54:32 PM »
IIRC, the Bicilindrica had offset crankpins, so it fired like a 90 degree v-twin. Honda (much) later used the same idea on the Hawk GT.

Yes, but that doesn't correct the balance dynamics of the pistons and their crank counterweights set at 120 degrees. In fact, it may add to any vibration issue by introducing the "rocking coupling" factor inherent to side by side or offset crank pins.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:56:58 PM by leafman60 »

Offline Kev m

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Re: Re: Re: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine
« Reply #179 on: January 10, 2014, 08:17:39 PM »
Indeed.  There is a reason I didn't run right out and buy another new Guzzi after my 1200 Sport was totalled.  In the first 5,000 miles the dash failed, the fork seals blew out, my rotors warped and my oil pressure sensor went.  The stock mapping also sucked around town.  I don't give a shit how many Guzzisti say problems occur with every brand.  That makes no difference when it's YOUR bike that makes three or four trips to the dealer in the first year and you spend a month waiting for warranty claims and/or parts to come from Italy.

I love how Guzzis sound.  I enjoy the relaxed, stable handling and the many beautiful details the company includes on the bikes.  I will have another Guzzi.  I just won't expect it to have Japanese reliability.

I LOVE the Guzzis I've had.

But there's a reason I've only got ONE right now, and it is a simple, relatively proven, reliable model.

And ironically, I've got a Harley, Buell, and Ducati for equal or better reliability.
Current Fleet

13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696
07 HD XL1200Lr

 


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