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Author Topic: Liquid-Cooled. 140hp. CW: 2015 new Moto Guzzi engine  (Read 13829 times)
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« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2014, 10:41:54 AM »
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Both Honda and Harley Davidson have proven how important image and advertising are in selling motorcycles.  Honda with "You meet the nicest people" theme and Harley with the inclusion of family and heavily advertised family oriented motorcycle events.  When was the last time anyone saw a Moto Guzzi Ad on TV or in a magazine, other than a motorcycle magazine?  I bought my first motorcycle, a Honda 305 Superhawk because I saw an ad that caught my interest, which lead me to go look at the bike.  I bought my 84 Honda Magna because an ad caught my eye, even though I wasn't in the market for a new bike at the time.

A strong consideration in proposing a new motorcycle (or any vehicle) is where the customer will come from, and how that will affect sales of existing products.  If MG comes out with a new small block, what will that do to sales of the current small block bikes ?

IMHO I think improvement of the current V7 engine to add enough hp to compete with Triumph and the Japanese  750 - 850 size bikes without losing the MG image or gaining too much weight, improving the dealer network, and an increase in advertising would do wonders for MG sales. 
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« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2014, 12:32:28 PM »
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Start here.  Make a modern version of this:





« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 12:34:06 PM by rocker59 » Logged

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« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2014, 12:36:24 PM »
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Of course that would be perceived as a copy of a Ducati, even though it's not.
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« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2014, 12:37:08 PM »
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Start here.  Make a modern version of this:







What's scary to me is I'm older than that bike!

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« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2014, 01:33:52 PM »
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Of course that would be perceived as a copy of a Ducati, even though it's not.

Unfortunately that is probably the case.
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« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2014, 01:42:07 PM »
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that's a pretty machine 
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« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2014, 01:47:34 PM »
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Unfortunately that is probably the case.

Or was it influenced by Ducati?  I don't know the history of the Bicilindrica, but it does have a bevel drive to the cams...

Update:  After reading a little history, it seems I was right the first time, it's not a copy of a Ducati.

Update of update:  Update was typed in parallel with Rocker's post below.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:55:16 PM by Triple Jim » Logged

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« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2014, 01:54:16 PM »
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Or was it influenced by Ducati?  I don't know the history of the Bicilindrica, but it does have a bevel drive to the cams...

Guzzi Bicilindrica.  500GP bike raced from 1933 to 1951.  Seventeen years competitive. 120-degree V-twin.

Dr. T penned the Ducati V-twin in 1970.  In 1971 they campained some 500cc racers.  Also released the 750GT.  The Ducatis are 90-degree V-twins.  Smart and Spaggiari finished one-two at Imola in 1972 on 750s, and the rest is history...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:56:14 PM by rocker59 » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2014, 01:54:27 PM »
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if anything this predates any Ducati bevel effort by at least 15 years for their single and almost 30 years for a twin.
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« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2014, 02:02:48 PM »
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if anything this predates any Ducati bevel effort by at least 15 years for their single and almost 30 years for a twin.
How different history could be . " Carl Fogarty wins third SBK title for Moto Guzzi."
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« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:35 PM »
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How different history could be . " Carl Fogarty wins third SBK title for Moto Guzzi."
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Isn't it interesting that Dr. Taglioni took a Guzzi concept dead 19 years and made something that became a perrenial winner for Ducati over the next 40 years ?

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« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2014, 02:14:58 PM »
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An updated Falcone and a baby Stelvio would be winners.  Both bikes would be different in the market place.  Unfortunately the big sale would have to be the follow-up with the lack of dealers. Undecided

The "dealer" out here is a motorcycle seller and not a dealer.  Their service is non-item.  NO parts and no service personnel to do the work.  They suck.  The reason why I buys parts from the MG dealers on the Mainland.
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« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2014, 04:14:01 PM »
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Interesting, that. From this actual customer's POV (not "I would/might/could buy...") I in fact specifically braved poor dealer support - in networks and capabilities, not the great fellas at "Ton Up"... RIP - and known developmental issues to buy a brand new Calvin out of frustration at not finding a vintage Cali/Eldo/Amb to own and ride. Folks wouldn't give them up at a "price" so I took advantage of MG revisiting a classic.

Now, this having been my second off the dealer's floor - I'll say this; (FOR ME, PROBABLY NOT FOR YOU) Moto Guzzi is the absolute worst of any consumer product that I've ever owned at offering incompletely developed products to the consumer. While there is potential risk in any purchase, only MG seems to not only rely upon but corporately savor the emotional bond and commitment that they hope will be early established between owner and bike. Just look at the flavor of the valuable term "well/properly sorted" in any for sale listing. They're not talking accessorized, they're saying all the standard "fixes" have been completed already.

Where "new" is concerned, I think the Stelvio and Griso represent the pinnacle in squandered opportunities for MG. The money for a proper "roll-out" woulda been there were it not for the chronic MG mismanagement over the years. Now, instead of setting the motorcycling world on their ears, these two are mere footnotes in modern motorcycling.

As far as the "new" small blocks, I applaud their effort but withhold full support as long as they stick with that sad-assed "Heron" head.

MG is and always has been where they deserve and in fact want (based upon operational decisions) to be and if they are as flawed as we know them to be we are at least partially responsible as the first tier enablers. Oh well, once again... "Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please, Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch." Now, to look into that 1400 - after I comply the list warts...

A LOT of truth in that posting.
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« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2014, 04:32:38 PM »
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A LOT of truth in that posting.

Indeed.  There is a reason I didn't run right out and buy another new Guzzi after my 1200 Sport was totalled.  In the first 5,000 miles the dash failed, the fork seals blew out, my rotors warped and my oil pressure sensor went.  The stock mapping also sucked around town.  I don't give a shit how many Guzzisti say problems occur with every brand.  That makes no difference when it's YOUR bike that makes three or four trips to the dealer in the first year and you spend a month waiting for warranty claims and/or parts to come from Italy.

I love how Guzzis sound.  I enjoy the relaxed, stable handling and the many beautiful details the company includes on the bikes.  I will have another Guzzi.  I just won't expect it to have Japanese reliability.
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« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2014, 07:31:23 PM »
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I've always liked those too.  If you wanna hear what they sound like take a listen to the following two links.  I bet that thing was pretty mean in its day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfaXEk2nXGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfCaX-qMSA

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« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2014, 07:41:53 PM »
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Those youtube clips are sweet!  I'm not an engineer so bear with me.  My understanding is that the 90 degree twin gives perfect primary balance.  What does 120 degree do to make that better? 
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« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2014, 07:53:25 PM »
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Those youtube clips are sweet!  I'm not an engineer so bear with me.  My understanding is that the 90 degree twin gives perfect primary balance.  What does 120 degree do to make that better? 

120 degree would not be better as far as balance and vibration but who cares. It is also not particularly good for rear cylinder cooling and it creates a longish motor.

I imagine it was adopted due to physical characteristics to allow desired frame shapes, dimensions and height.

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« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2014, 07:58:25 PM »
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120 degree would not be better as far as balance and vibration but who cares. It is also not particularly good for rear cylinder cooling and it creates a longish motor.

I imagine it was adopted due to physical characteristics to allow desired frame shapes, dimensions and height.



IIRC, the Bicilindrica had offset crankpins, so it fired like a 90 degree v-twin. Honda (much) later used the same idea on the Hawk GT.
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« Reply #178 on: January 10, 2014, 08:54:32 PM »
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IIRC, the Bicilindrica had offset crankpins, so it fired like a 90 degree v-twin. Honda (much) later used the same idea on the Hawk GT.

Yes, but that doesn't correct the balance dynamics of the pistons and their crank counterweights set at 120 degrees. In fact, it may add to any vibration issue by introducing the "rocking coupling" factor inherent to side by side or offset crank pins.
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« Reply #179 on: January 10, 2014, 09:17:39 PM »
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Indeed.  There is a reason I didn't run right out and buy another new Guzzi after my 1200 Sport was totalled.  In the first 5,000 miles the dash failed, the fork seals blew out, my rotors warped and my oil pressure sensor went.  The stock mapping also sucked around town.  I don't give a shit how many Guzzisti say problems occur with every brand.  That makes no difference when it's YOUR bike that makes three or four trips to the dealer in the first year and you spend a month waiting for warranty claims and/or parts to come from Italy.

I love how Guzzis sound.  I enjoy the relaxed, stable handling and the many beautiful details the company includes on the bikes.  I will have another Guzzi.  I just won't expect it to have Japanese reliability.

I LOVE the Guzzis I've had.

But there's a reason I've only got ONE right now, and it is a simple, relatively proven, reliable model.

And ironically, I've got a Harley, Buell, and Ducati for equal or better reliability.
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« Reply #180 on: January 10, 2014, 11:01:44 PM »
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Loved the sounds on those videos!   

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« Reply #181 on: January 10, 2014, 11:46:22 PM »
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Rocker and I share the same nasty habit: Daydreaming Of Concept Moto Guzzi Motorcycles.

-Joe 
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« Reply #182 on: January 11, 2014, 12:39:36 AM »
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There is an advantage to a 90 degree V-twin, vibration-wise.  There is an advantage to a longitudinal crank engine, shaft-drive-wise.  I don't see why the old standby Guzzi layout shouldn't stay the same, just because it doesn't need air cooling.

I agree. As much as the engine configuration, I think a major decision point is shaft drive vs. a chain or belt. While a chain has lots of advantages, personally I'd rather not mess with one. Obviously, the best choice for the drive mechanism would depend on the type of bike and how it would be used.

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« Reply #183 on: January 11, 2014, 12:49:25 AM »
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I LOVE the Guzzis I've had.

But there's a reason I've only got ONE right now, and it is a simple, relatively proven, reliable model.

And ironically, I've got a Harley, Buell, and Ducati for equal or better reliability.

No offence Kev but tenses are mixed in first line
If you HAD truly LOVED them, you would be able to say LOVE the Guzzis I HAVE.

Shame they didn't work for you,Guzzi were once legendary reliability , very rare here to see a Ducati, HD or Buell with big miles, loads of old Guzzis still clocking them up, mine included.
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« Reply #184 on: January 11, 2014, 01:11:48 AM »
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Indeed. 

Only 140 hp from a 1300cc motor?

My 10 year old Ducati puts out that much from 999cc.

Tom


So why are you hanging in the Moto Guzzi site?
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« Reply #185 on: January 11, 2014, 04:04:32 AM »
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No offence Kev but tenses are mixed in first line
If you HAD truly LOVED them, you would be able to say LOVE the Guzzis I HAVE.

Shame they didn't work for you,Guzzi were once legendary reliability , very rare here to see a Ducati, HD or Buell with big miles, loads of old Guzzis still clocking them up, mine included.

Nothing mixed, I DID love the past ones, but they are past because of their higher rate of troubles.

And I guess it's all the circles in which you travel, but I've never found it that rare to find high mileage/well traveled, and most if all RELIABLE Harleys and Buells...can't say the same for Ducs just because I'm too new to them still and don't really associate with many (any?) other Duc riders.

PS - LOVE the current Goose and remain cautiously optimistic about it's long term prospects.
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« Reply #186 on: January 11, 2014, 05:03:01 AM »
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Nothing mixed, I DID love the past ones, but they are past because of their higher rate of troubles.


Love is forever, unconditionally, I think you mean liked or were slightly keen on.
Slightly OT but all I know still with their first Guzzi are also still with their wife.
Says something, not sure what, but marketing men and salesmen prefer divorcees for obvious reasons
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« Reply #187 on: January 11, 2014, 08:37:44 AM »
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Love is forever, unconditionally, I think you mean liked or were slightly keen on.
Slightly OT but all I know still with their first Guzzi are also still with their wife.
Says something, not sure what, but marketing men and salesmen prefer divorcees for obvious reasons

Oh brother....we're talking about a machine, not a wife or child. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #188 on: January 11, 2014, 01:46:34 PM »
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So what do we know?

New compact 1300cc 8V DOHC H2o pumper
Could be 140 HP (but won't be)
Counter rotating g-box
No earlier than 2015

The article teases about a new LeMans in our future but as likely this engine will be plopped into the Norge, Stelvio & Griso - MAYBE they'll bring back the LeMans.


...how about a v4 with 175 hp...

...A blown, small displacement 120-degree v-twin would rock my world...

In my mind Moto Guzzi is not & won't be reinvented to be a performance brand - that would be Aprilia under our common Piaggio parent.
I'm all for going after torque & reliability that's what really matters on the street & it would be a good fit for the brand.

The new engine should improve conditions for combustion, emissions, CHT & oil temperature. You might even be able to run 15W40 oil in it. 


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« Reply #189 on: January 11, 2014, 02:07:40 PM »
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Moto Guzzi is not & won't be reinvented to be a performance brand - that would be Aprilia under our common Piaggio parent.
I'm all for going after torque & reliability that's what really matters on the street & it would be a good fit for the brand.


Yeah, Yeah.  But, that won't stop me wishing for something that suits me, and something that might cause me to spend money on a Guzzi built since Piaggio took the reins...  Any one of these would do:

My wish list:
1)  Hotted-up V7 Classic with 4-valve cylinder heads and, say, 65bhp
2)  A retro standard built on the Bellgio chassis, with V7C tank/fenders.
3)  A V7 Stelvio.
4) A sporty Guzzi.  Not a superbike contender, but a sporty bike, nonetheless.
5)  An all-new engine.  Something like a modern take on the Bicilindrica.  Put it in a modernized version of the Bicilindrica chassis. 

Oh, and if Aprilia went the way of Laverda, I wouldn't miss it... 
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« Reply #190 on: January 11, 2014, 02:35:12 PM »
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So what do we know, you ask?

We know the next all new bike out of Guzzi will indeed be a sport bike, not a supersport GSXR type, but a sport bike akin to a modern LeMans.  I have this from a dealer who has an exceptional rep with their customers as well as Piaggio.
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« Reply #191 on: January 11, 2014, 02:37:53 PM »
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Dusty, you're right.  My apologies.
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« Reply #192 on: January 11, 2014, 02:52:29 PM »
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Let's not go there .
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« Reply #193 on: January 11, 2014, 03:02:00 PM »
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On the Bicilindrica bike vids......love the sound and also the design of the clip-ons and the gas tank with built arm rests. 
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« Reply #194 on: January 11, 2014, 03:58:47 PM »
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For better or worse, the longitudinal V-twin is the iconic Moto Guzzi engine.  Yes, they have used various other configurations over their long history, but it is perhaps because they never seemed to settle on one design until the longitudinal V, and then continued with that one design for so long  (and for nearly all of its modern history), that it has become their trademark.

If the new Moto Guzzi engine supposedly under development is air-cooled with water/glycol assist (a la BMW), then continuing with the longitudinal V-makes engineering as well as marketing sense.  However, the cited article does not say whether the engine is fully or only partially water-cooled, let alone whether it continues with the longitudinal V layout.  Unless there are other credible reports available to fill in these blanks, we are all simply speculating.

Greg, you of all people know that the longitudinal V was the first and only Guzzi engine to achieve mass market acceptance, rocketing sales from 4,000 to 40,000 units.  Sure, that was a long time ago, but it's hard to fault Moto Guzzi for plugging away with the longitudinal V-twin layout, hoping for a return to that glorious time.  (Not to mention that until Piaggio came along, they never really had the cash to do anything else.)  Then again, maybe forty years is long enough.  I for one, would welcome a bit more variety, and I think a big single and a mid-sized transverse V-twin would be excellent compliments to the line.
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« Reply #195 on: January 11, 2014, 05:34:10 PM »
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The horizontal single was Guzzi's mainstay for 53 years. 

47 years, now, for the longitudinal twin, so it's closing in.

Most of the oddball Guzzis were for racing.  There were only about a dozen of the Bicilindrica ever built, and they were 500GP factory racebikes.  They did have a long life, winning races from 1933 to 1951. 

 

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Michael T.
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« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2014, 07:57:06 PM »
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Dusty, you're right.  My apologies.
No need to apologize , you and I are buds a and if the shoe were on the other foot I would hope you would remind me to let some stuff go .
Dusty


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« Reply #197 on: January 12, 2014, 01:01:23 AM »
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IMO it doesn't matter if Moto Guzzi only sells 10,000 bikes a year as long as those bikes are profitable.

I often find it funny that the big Japanese but so much money and effort into making powerful sportsbikes and HD just goes "Here is a big air-cooled V-Twin and we are not going to even bother telling you how much HP it makes oh and make sure you order some accessories for your bike". I wager HD makes more profit from their accessories catalog than the Japs do on selling 600cc superbikes.

I think the V7 range is a step in the right direction the only thing holding it back is lack of marketing and dealer network.
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« Reply #198 on: January 12, 2014, 02:54:04 AM »
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Oh boy, two more cams to replace. Cheesy Just kidding, of course. Grin


Does that mean its going to be a "Hydro"?

Rick.
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« Reply #199 on: January 12, 2014, 03:23:29 AM »
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"As on the old Honda CX500, the gearbox of Moto Guzzi’s new liquid-cooled V-Twin will rotate in the opposite direction of the crankshaft to kill the torque reaction generated by any motorcycle engine with a longitudinal crank."

Strange I've known someone who sold a CX650 to buy a Guzzi precisely because the Guzzi had more personality even though the the plastic maggot as it was affectionately termed by many a dizzie(despatch rider) for it's reliability, day in day out.

What I appreciate even more with the twisting torque reaction is the gyroscopic effect that keeps the Guzzi upright on ice, frost and other slippery surfaces. 

Can remember a hazardous visit to an MOT station a couple of years ago.
The fields were frost white and the twisty road had patches of ice and a frosty white covering elsewhere, where the car wheels had not been.
Felt secure that using no sudden movements, I had gyroscopic stability in my right wrist.

 

Rob
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