Author Topic: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics  (Read 2331 times)

Offline jas67

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Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« on: August 21, 2013, 05:49:45 PM »
On the way home from work today, the clutch on my Breva 1100 seemed to not be releasing the whole way   Getting into neutral was damned near impossible and it was hard downshift.    It was acting like a cable clutch w/o enough cable pull.    As you might recall, it has adjustable levers, so I adjusted it out at the furthest setting.   Now, I can squeeze till it stops, and it doesn't touch the grip.   Still, same problem.

Also, when I release the clutch lever I hear a sound that sounds like a bird tweeting coming from the area of the slave cylinder.

Thoughts?    Could the slave cylinder failing?


2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

redbirds

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 06:13:10 PM »
Have you tried bleeding the system to see if air is getting into it?

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 07:39:41 PM »
Have you tried bleeding the system to see if air is getting into it?

I bled the system about a 8 months / 4,000 miles ago, and, until today, it has been fine since.

Maybe I'll try to bleed it again.
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 09:24:22 PM »
I bled it.
No bubbles came out.
But, yet, it is all better; I don't know why  ???
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline Suncoast

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 10:49:25 PM »
Any chance your fluid is contaminated? This spring my clutch was acting up mushy feel and barely disengaging the engine/transmission I completly changed the fluid with a new SEALED container of brake fluid and the problem went away. Never saw any bubbles either but the fluid was dark and dirty.
Current rides: '01 KLR 650 (winter Bike)
                    '07 Breva 1100 L'altra donna (summer bike)

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 05:37:01 AM »
Any chance your fluid is contaminated? This spring my clutch was acting up mushy feel and barely disengaging the engine/transmission I completly changed the fluid with a new SEALED container of brake fluid and the problem went away. Never saw any bubbles either but the fluid was dark and dirty.

The fluid did have some color too it, but wasn't horrible.
I flushed it until it was clear again.
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Online Vasco DG

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 05:59:16 AM »
Certainly this discolouration of clutch fluid seems to be common on all the Guzzis I've dealt with. Why clutch fluid more so than brake fluid I can't really fathom but the fact is it goes 'Off' really quickly.

Some bikes this gives problems with. Some, like mine, seem to be impervious to problems.

Simple fact of the matter is that unlike V11's the CARC bikes and Cali 14 are so easy to bleed that not doing it every 10,000 Km service would seem a bit silly. Its not as if its a big or difficult job and the cost is minimal.

Pete

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 10:42:15 AM »
Certainly this discolouration of clutch fluid seems to be common on all the Guzzis I've dealt with. Why clutch fluid more so than brake fluid I can't really fathom but the fact is it goes 'Off' really quickly.

Some bikes this gives problems with. Some, like mine, seem to be impervious to problems.

Simple fact of the matter is that unlike V11's the CARC bikes and Cali 14 are so easy to bleed that not doing it every 10,000 Km service would seem a bit silly. Its not as if its a big or difficult job and the cost is minimal.

Pete

I last bled the clutch and brake fluid about 8 months and 3,000 miles ago (just checked my records), so I was surprised to see it go this quickly.   But, as you said, it is an easy job on this bike, so I don't really care.   I'm just happy that was all it needed.

Thanks for the comments on the V11's, as I really like the looks of those, and am often tempted by buy one.    This is one caveat to keep in mind.
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline Cal3Me

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 01:55:33 PM »
my yamaha venture used to do that too. The heat from the clutch would turn the fluid brownish in about 5000 miles. On warm days the bike would creep on me with the lever pulled in at a stop light.



,,,,,Tim
TMS

Offline Kev m

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 02:41:21 PM »
The odd thing is that bike went the first few years and 15k miles without any clutch fluid changes or problems. Why has it gotten more needy now.
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Offline oldbike54

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 02:49:40 PM »
The odd thing is that bike went the first few years and 15k miles without any clutch fluid changes or problems. Why has it gotten more needy now.
Maybe it has developed "insecurity" issues . :) Sorry .
Dusty
Walking up a hill at 4:30 AM in Bristow OK , bike not running , rain coming , I had the thought

 "This sucks a little bit"

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 03:10:50 PM »
The odd thing is that bike went the first few years and 15k miles without any clutch fluid changes or problems. Why has it gotten more needy now.

Possibly because of not having any clutch fluid changes.    Like the ethanol in our fuel, break fluid is hydroscopic (is that the right word?).    It absorbs water.   That water causes rust and corrosion.    Now that it is getting older, and went so long w/o fluid changes, there is likely rust in the slave and/or master cylinders.

This is also what causes brake calipers to seize up on older cars that have never had the brake fluid changed.    I've always changed the brake and clutch fluid in my cars every 2 years, and never had a problem with those systems.

In either case, it is all better now.    I'm going to inspect the color of the fluid more often now, and change it any time it gets discolored.
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline Kev m

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 03:23:38 PM »
Hygroscopic

But many brake and hydraulic clutch systems remain unserviced for the life of the vehicle without problems, not saying one should do that.

And if corrosion and resulting damage was the problem, then fresh fluid shouldn't fix it.
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Online Vasco DG

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 03:24:46 PM »
Hygroscopic.

Be surprised if it was water related but it could be. Heat? The solace is a long way from anything really hot and it would take a lot of heat for it to conduct down the clutch pushrod in damaging quantities.

Pete

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics -- still not right
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2013, 09:53:12 PM »
The night I bled the clutch, it seemed better.   Well, it isn't necessarily better, but now different.

When shifting under way, it seems nice.   But, somtimes, when stopped, if I hold the clutch in for more than a few seconds, when I release it to go, there is a second or two delay before the clutch actually engages. 

Ideas?   

Pete?

Anyone?
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2013, 10:08:11 PM »
Sounds like either the slave or master piston is binding, possibly the pushrod but I think it unlikely.

Pete

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2013, 06:14:49 AM »
Sounds like either the slave or master piston is binding, possibly the pushrod but I think it unlikely.

Pete

Pete -- thanks, I'll look into it.
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 08:56:20 AM »
Sounds like either the slave or master piston is binding, possibly the pushrod but I think it unlikely.

Pete

Pete -- what is the recommended procedure for determining which (slave or master) piston is the one binding?

Thanks,
Jay
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2013, 07:23:23 PM »
OK, a little update on my B11 clutch saga.

Blaine Paulus, former Guzzi dealer (about 15 years ago) and racer, who some of you here know was at my place last weekend while Perazzimx14 replaced the belt on his Eldo.    I asked him about my little clutch issue.    He suggested that it just might not be a hydraulic problem at all, but that it might be a build up of friction disc dust in the clutch pack, and the flush it out with Brake Klean.    Well, wouldn't you know it, that might just be it!    I did that, and while it isn't 100% better, it is way better.    I'm going to do it again and see if it improves further.

Watch this thread for further updates.
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline Kev m

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Re: Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 07:26:55 PM »
VERY interesting...what's the explanation for the lever feel?
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Offline astralpilot in North West UK

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 10:34:05 PM »
This is very interesting indeed.
May I ask how you flushed/cleaned the clutch with the brake cleaner?
I might try that myself if you could let me know.

Regards
Maik
06 Breva 1100

Offline jas67

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Re: Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 05:07:27 AM »
VERY interesting...what's the explanation for the lever feel?

 ??? ??? ???
Maybe in my head?   Maybe just the change in movement of the bike made my brain I was feeling something in the clutch lever?

If another cleaning/flush doesn't make it completely better, I'll be puling the clutch to give it a proper cleaning, and replace anything showing much wear while I'm in there.    I also have slave cylinder on order.    I'll put that in while I'm in there too.

This is very interesting indeed.
May I ask how you flushed/cleaned the clutch with the brake cleaner?
I might try that myself if you could let me know.

Regards
Maik

I'll take some pics next time I do this, which, hopefully will be this evening, or tomorrow evening.  There is a rubber inspection plug in the right side of the transmission housing near the engine.   Pop that out, and you'll see the clutch housing and starter ring gear.    Put the transmission into 6th gear and rotate the rear wheel until you see a small hole (about 1.5-2mm diameter) in the clutch housing.     Spray the brake cleaner in that hole, periodically rotating the wheel & clutch.    I don't know if there are multiple holes or if I was just coming around the same hole again.  Use the whole can.  You'll want a catch pan under the clutch, and some scrap cardboard or paper on the floor around it to catch the mess.   I also stopped a few times during this process, and started the engine, engaging / disengaging the clutch a few times.

2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline jas67

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics -- UPDATE
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2014, 07:44:23 AM »
2013 V7 Racer
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 1968 Ducati Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250ie (wife's)
2013 BMW F800GT, 1992 R100R, 1980/78 R100S, 1973 1973 R75/5, 2003 F650GS Dakar
1976 Honda CB400F, 1968 CL175

Offline Phil_P

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2014, 09:03:44 AM »
I know you feel like things have improved with the flush, but here's my 2 cents;

If the master cylinder piston is slugish, then might it not be failing to return enough to open the port to the reservoir? That would mean you aren't getting any compensation for wear, plus you aren't getting as much plunger throw as you should be.

Phil
Phil P

It is not enough to win, others must fail! :D

Offline Kev m

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Re: Re: Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2014, 09:10:55 AM »
I know you feel like things have improved with the flush, but here's my 2 cents;

If the master cylinder piston is slugish, then might it not be failing to return enough to open the port to the reservoir? That would mean you aren't getting any compensation for wear, plus you aren't getting as much plunger throw as you should be.

Phil

The clutch was fragged....see link....
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Offline Phil_P

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Re: Breva 1100 Clutch Hydraulics
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2014, 09:27:42 AM »
Thanks Kev, had missed that.

Phil
Phil P

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