Roy's Eldorado Adventure

[Kiwi_Roy]

I finally got a bit of spare time so I gave the engine a good clean at the car wash, then another with engine cleaner, it's still filthy.
I removed the timing cover and to mu surprise a massive set of gears, these are in great shape, barely polished. The main shaft seal had fallen apart but there was no sign of significant oil leakage. I removed the oil pump it doesn't show signs of wear but I haven't measured it yet.

Is there a kit to add a filter to these old girls, it looks as though there are possibilities.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I finally got a bit of spare time so I gave the engine a good clean at the car wash, then another with engine cleaner, it's still filthy.
I removed the timing cover and to mu surprise a massive set of gears, these are in great shape, barely polished. The main shaft seal had fallen apart but there was no sign of significant oil leakage. I removed the oil pump it doesn't show signs of wear but I haven't measured it yet.

Is there a kit to add a filter to these old girls, it looks as though there are possibilities.

Maybe not a kit, but it can be done relatively easily. A search on here just might find it.

[nick949]

......

Is there a kit to add a filter to these old girls, it looks as though there are possibilities.

Roy,
  The PO of my bike added this (below).  It works fine and after 35,000 miles in my hands, does not appear to have been the source of any trouble.  However, from what I've read here and elsewhere, it isn't necessary.  If my bike didn't already have it, I wouldn't be looking to add one.

As long as you change the oil regularly, these bikes go forever.  It's just one more thing to go wrong or get damaged. From time to time I wonder when I'm going to drop the bike on some backroad and rip the whole thing off.

Nick

[Chuck in Indiana]

Here ya go, Roy.. there's more than one way to skin a cat..
http://thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine.htm#gtb_oil_filter_addition_-_bill_dudley

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thanks Nick, Chuck,
a couple of good options ;-T

Time to visit the auto wrecker ;D

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Is there a kit to add a filter to these old girls, it looks as though there are possibilities.

If you're tearing the engine down completely, do it the right way - the way the factory did it on later bikes.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine.htm#gtb_oil_filter_addition_-_adapting_an_existing_block_to_use_an_internal_filter

[normzone]

Wow - the whole patina thing. When I found my Eldo it had been done in green and yellow marine enamel with a brush - you could measure the depth of the brush strokes. In retrospect it would have been fun to leave it that way.

Re oil filtration, my motorcycle mentor taught me just to drop and replace the oil every thousand miles. It's a different world now.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Re oil filtration, my motorcycle mentor taught me just to drop and replace the oil every thousand miles. It's a different world now.

That's what I've been doing on my own personal '69 Ambassador for the last 70k miles. It now has 106k, still has great oil pressure.

[Kiwi_Roy]

So next step was to pull the crank to take some measurements
I was surprised how easy it all came apart, no bolts seemed over tight, I don't believe this motor has ever been apart before.

The crank and rods look great to my untrained eye




Time to clean the sludge trap I think.


After hosing down at the car wash and another wash with engine bright it's still fairly dirty.

It took me just over 2 hours to get it all apart, I'm sure you experts can do it in half the time.

Did I mention this old girl had 135,000 miles on the odo before the PO took the heads off 20 yesrs ago I'm the 2nd owner.

[donn]

Did I mention this old girl had 135,000 miles on the odo before the PO took the heads off 20 yesrs ago I'm the 2nd owner.

I wonder, if you could get the numbers, miles before failure on unmodified motors in the 850 El Dorado with no oil filter, vs. say the T3 with an internal oil filter.

No doubt the filter does some good, but apparently they got along without it so well that it wouldn't take many internal oil filters falling off and ruining the engine, to break even on the odds.

[Kiwi_Roy]

On that topic
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=68095.0
I'm sure a proper filter would avoid this damage

[Kiwi_Roy]

I finally got around to measuring the bearings with plastigauge, I measured each of the rods in 4 places 0.003.

I couldn't figure out how to use the mains so I used a feeler, the only feeler I could insert was 0.05 mm, about 2 thou I think

I couldn't find the allowable clearance in Guzziology, anyone know what it is?

Roy

[Chuck in Indiana]

I finally got around to measuring the bearings with plastigauge, I measured each of the rods in 4 places 0.003.

I couldn't figure out how to use the mains so I used a feeler, the only feeler I could insert was 0.05 mm, about 2 thou I think

I couldn't find the allowable clearance in Guzziology, anyone know what it is?

Roy

These are from the Centauro manual, but are pretty typical. I'd imagine the Eldo clearances are similar..

Rod bearings .0008/.0025
You'll have to pull the crank out to really measure the mains. Timing side .001/.002, Flywheel side .0015/.003

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thanks Chuck
So I'm a slightly over the limit on the rods then.
I know everyone will recommend grinding and undersize bearings but that will soon mount up.
$500 for the bearings $??? for grinding

Given that it's a $200 bike and it's made it to 130,000 miles I may just put off grinding for a while longer.

I have the crank out, I assume you use a micrometer to measure the main bearings,
I just carefully slid the bearing over the shaft and 0.05 mm feeler, it was a firm fit, I did not try to rotate.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You probably just need new bearing shells for the rods. Not a big expense. Really, though.. you need to find the specs on the Eldo engine and make sure what you are doing. I would say grinding the crank is an absolute last resort.
 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

According to the factory manual:
Rod bearing clearance is 0.011 - 0.061 mm (.000433" - .0024")
Front main bearing clearance is 0.025 - 0.057 mm (.00098" - .00224")
Rear main bearing clearance is 0.030 - 0.068 mm (.00118" - .0027")

You can download the manual here: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_700_750.pdf

If you need an original yellow cover "700cc, 750 cc and 850cc - Operating Handbook For Stripping, Checking And Assembling Operations" I have one in like new condition for sale.

[canuck750]

Thanks Chuck
So I'm a slightly over the limit on the rods then.
I know everyone will recommend grinding and undersize bearings but that will soon mount up.
$500 for the bearings $??? for grinding

Given that it's a $200 bike and it's made it to 130,000 miles I may just put off grinding for a while longer.

I have the crank out, I assume you use a micrometer to measure the main bearings,
I just carefully slid the bearing over the shaft and 0.05 mm feeler, it was a firm fit, I did not try to rotate.

If the crank measurements are close to being just over max. tolerance you could just run it as is, you don't have anything to lose, worst case you will need to rebuild it in the future.

I had a V7 Sport crank ground last week plus they balanced the con rods, they do very good work, $375.00. Add in the two main bearings and the shells and you throw in another $500.00. Pair of Giladorni cylinder kits, reground tappets, small end rod bearings, new guides, springs and valves, you get to $2K very, very quick. I was yapping about the cost of rebuilding a Guzzi big twin to my machinist, then he showed me the bill for a Kawasaki Z1, close to $4500.00, ouch. Its all relative, relatively expensive that is.

Clutch discs, U joint, carrier bearing, etc.... decide when to stop before you start, I have not learned that lesson yet, I am on engine #3.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If the crank measurements are close to being just over max. tolerance you could just run it as is, you don't have anything to lose, worst case you will need to rebuild it in the future.

I had a V7 Sport crank ground last week plus they balanced the con rods, they do very good work, $375.00. Add in the two main bearings and the shells and you throw in another $500.00. Pair of Giladorni cylinder kits, reground tappets, small end rod bearings, new guides, springs and valves, you get to $2K very, very quick. I was yapping about the cost of rebuilding a Guzzi big twin to my machinist, then he showed me the bill for a Kawasaki Z1, close to $4500.00, ouch. Its all relative, relatively expensive that is.

Clutch discs, U joint, carrier bearing, etc.... decide when to stop before you start, I have not learned that lesson yet, I am on engine #3.

You got that right, suddenly a $200 motorcycle doesn't seem like such a bargain.
No wonder we relate them to the female gender ;D
I think I may order up a set of crank bearings at least, I'm pretty sure the mains are good enough.
The cylinder kits aren't available at the moment so I will go another route until I get her running at least.
My riding buddy has a Z1 and a KZ1000 restored from rusty relics, yes he sure burned up some cash on those

Fantastic job you do on your restorations BTW, I don't have enough years left in me for that sort of work ;D

Charlie,
          Thanks for the clearance information.
I know, you do a fantastic job too  ;-T

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The cylinder kits aren't available at the moment so I will go another route until I get her running at least.

Eldo cylinder kits are still available from Stein Dinse:

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Motor/Cylinder/Cylinder-compl-T3-V7-GT-83-mm::3972.html

Around $700/pr. shipped to your door. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

While waiting for parts I switched to the chassis, I stripped the horrible red metal-flake from the rear fender
Lo and behold under it was the original off white, this is what I want to go back too
I'm not too fussed about getting it exactly correct, something like a close car colour will do, any ideas?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Paint codes are on Greg's website: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/moto_guzzi_loopframe_body.htm#gtb_paint_codes

With the new low VOC paint formulations, this information may be obsolete, but here it is anyway:
PPG Cameo White, Tinting Guide: DBC90256
(base coat Urethane, no OEM)

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thanks Charlie,
                     I think by now you have realized this isn't going to be a quality restoration, more like saving the old girl from a slow and painful death. I first became aware of the bike a couple of years back, the original owner had dressed it up with all kinds of bling, rode it 130,000 miles then dis-assembled the top end 20 years ago.
Instead of picking up this bike I bought a California II that was rapidly going in the same direction but she kept calling to me begging to be rescued.
Hopefully I can keep her in somewhat stable state until someone more worthy can do a full restoration.

I will run the paint codes past a local parts store, their paint department will charge up some rattle cans with a clearcoat mixture that works pretty well.

It's surprising how Guzzis keep popping out of the woodwork, I learned that the local police (New Westminster BC) rode them back in the 70s

[normzone]

In the early eighties I was riding my '72 Eldo, in rattle can blue and black. I wore a bandana (pre-helmet laws) and a ratty old horsehide coat. Beard, braid and levis.

My co-rider had just bought a new Honda 750 with a Windjammer fairing and all the gloss and bling. He was clean shaven, respectable, helmeted, new riding gear, parents wanted him to meet their daughters. He'd modified the turn signals to blue running lights like the motor officers ran.

We got pulled over by two CHP in a cruiser. While one of them read him the riot act and made him disassemble the running lights on the spot, the other one traded Guzzi stories with me, talked about how many hours he'd logged on his, how quickly he could change a clutch, and we were just good old buddies before we parted.

My co-rider felt slighted that he got reamed while I was welcomed with open arms. It's not always the clothes that make the man.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have been making some progress.
I stripped the frame down and re-painted it with Por15, man that stuff sticks to your hands, I will wear gloves next time for sure ???
I will be using this paint over all the original chrome which is long gone.
I knocked the bearing out of the drive tunnel, it's shot so I will be waiting on another of those If I can't get it local.
I made some progress on adding a filter, a visit to the wrecker yard and found the fitting from a Honda Civic has the right thread.

A few things I need if anyone has a parts bike
Front engine bolt and the two aluminium spacers I had to cut through
The lever that fits onto the cross over shaft for the rear brake, sort of an "L" shape with a spline fitting
Actually the shaft as well, I had to grind off the part that holds a spring clip although I can probably figure out a fix

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I knocked the bearing out of the drive tunnel, it's shot so I will be waiting on another of those If I can't get it local.

I made some progress on adding a filter, a visit to the wrecker yard and found the fitting from a Honda Civic has the right thread.

A few things I need if anyone has a parts bike
Front engine bolt and the two aluminium spacers I had to cut through
The lever that fits onto the cross over shaft for the rear brake, sort of an "L" shape with a spline fitting
Actually the shaft as well, I had to grind off the part that holds a spring clip although I can probably figure out a fix

Here are some cross-references for the carrier bearing:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_u-joint_carrier_bearing_cross-references.html

How are you adding an oil filter? External setup of some sort?

I'm short on the parts you need, but I'm sure Mark @ Moto Guzzi Classics or Harper's probably have them.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Here are some cross-references for the carrier bearing:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_u-joint_carrier_bearing_cross-references.html

How are you adding an oil filter? External setup of some sort?

I'm short on the parts you need, but I'm sure Mark @ Moto Guzzi Classics or Harper's probably have them.

That's weird the description says 58 mm diameter but the part Nos lead one to believe its 62

I checked mine, it's 58 for sure,  28 x 62 x 16 is available locally.

I guess I don't understand how the bearing part Nos work.

The oil filter will be internal, there's lots of space.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The oil filter will be internal, there's lots of space.

How are you plumbing the filter to the block? Or are you plumbing it into the oil pipe?

[Kiwi_Roy]

It's finally starting to come back together
I painted the frame and my hands with Por15. Just brushing this stuff on results in a nice smooth finish.
I wish I could say the same for my hands, it took over a week to get the last off them ???
I have heard that Por15 won't stand up to UV but my bikes spend most of their lives in a warm dry car park so I'll just wait and see.

Thanks Charlie for the help with the carrier bearing Nos, I was able to source one locally so I didn't have to wait on postage.
All the other bearings seem ok but this one was full of rusty water, may have been from pressure washing at the car wash.
Swing arms back in, the tapered rollers looked fine, just a faint wear mark but not notchy at all.

All the chrome on this bike is absolutely shot so I plan on blacking it out with Por15 also, the crash bars came up nicely.

I still have to figure out the internal oil filter tubing, I know how I want to do it just need the right fittings, I may have to make those.
The only modification I will make to the block is drill the front oil hole a little larger down to where the pump joins in, an internal quill
will carry filtered oil back to the front main bearing, at least that's the plan.

BTW a good source of metric size steel tubing is the brake lines available from auto parts store.
 

[charlie b]

How about pics of the frame.  The Por15 sounds like something I need :)

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have been making some progress.
I stripped the frame down and re-painted it with Por15, man that stuff sticks to your hands, I will wear gloves next time for sure ???
I will be using this paint over all the original chrome which is long gone.
I knocked the bearing out of the drive tunnel, it's shot so I will be waiting on another of those If I can't get it local.
I made some progress on adding a filter, a visit to the wrecker yard and found the fitting from a Honda Civic has the right thread.

A few things I need if anyone has a parts bike
Front engine bolt and the two aluminium spacers I had to cut through
The lever that fits onto the cross over shaft for the rear brake, sort of an "L" shape with a spline fitting
Actually the shaft as well, I had to grind off the part that holds a spring clip although I can probably figure out a fix

Call Mark at MG Classics. He has boxes of that kind of stuff.. freshly plated.