Roy's Eldorado Adventure

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Oh so I wasted my money on the new floats then  ???



This part, sorry about the scratchy sketch from memory, there is a spline on the shaft with a matching one on the lever and something like a bolt to hold in place, I destroyed the original getting it off.

IMO, yes, you could have saved the money spent on the white floats for something else. I reuse the original 40 yr. old floats regularly and have had zero issues.

That lever should actually look like this:



The forward leg limits the travel and actuates the brake light switch.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes you are right, it was L shaped as you show in the next post, I forgot about the brake light switch.

We have a couple of clever machinists in the local club, I'll take that picture and see what I can do.

Thanks

Roy

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Yes you are right, it was L shaped as you show in the next post, I forgot about the brake light switch.

We have a couple of clever machinists in the local club, I'll take that picture and see what I can do.

Thanks

Roy

Mark @ Moto Guzzi Classics likely has all the pieces you seek at very reasonable prices. Give him a call: 562-986-0070.

[Kiwi_Roy]

That lever should actually look like this:



The forward leg limits the travel and actuates the brake light switch.

A friend saw the brake arm on fleabay, I picked it up for $10 including postage.
I got the heads back from the machine shop with the new valves all cut in so now I have no excuse not to start re-assembly.
Rest assured, I will have lots of questions for the experts ;D

I made good progress, got the lower end together a couple of questions though.
There was no gasket for the front main bearing in the kit, is that normal?
I have 4 identical thick (1/8") gaskets that look like they go between head and intake manifold, do I use 2 on each.

I tried to buy a decent valve spring compressor, they were all horrendously expensive or huge so I modified a welders "C" clamp,  I arranged it so the tip of the valve locates in the clamp to prevent it slipping off, it works a treat. The part pressing on the spring is only 1/2" bar on edge so it's easy to get the collets in.

A strip of Aluminum clamped in the vice and drilled to fit the rocker cover bolts holds the head.

I couldn't find the torque specs in the manual or Guzziology however I was able to get a table from Greg Benders site.

I must say its more fun putting the jigsaw puzzle back together.
 

[Kiwi_Roy]

I need a little expert help.
The other night because I wasn't confident in my wrench I torqued up the big ends to about 25 lb/ft, tonight I checked the wrench with a scale and it seemed to be within one or two pounds so I decided to wind the bolts to 33 as listed on GB's site.
At this setting it felt like the bolts were stretching, I got about 3/4 turn before the wrench clicked.

Greg's list says 33 to 35 lb for self locking bolts, my bolts are not self locking they have a little bend up tab, I think the thread is 8mm (13mm socket)
Have I screwed up ???

Question No 2, moving on I decided to put the flywheel back on the only problem is it will go in any of 6 different positions, At one point there is a nice
arrow and a bit further around a couple of punch marks. How do I line up the flywheel?

Front main bearing bolt locking.
I found a bunch of normal split spring washers and duly put one on each bolt but when I put the cam shaft cog on it fouls the bolt heads, without the spring washers it's fine, Is there supposed to be anything holding these bolts?

The camshaft has about 1mm of end float, is that normal?

Thanks in advancs for your valuable advice

[Chuck in Indiana]

How do I line up the flywheel?

Mark it before you take it off?  ;D
Align the timing marks, and the arrow points to a cast tit on the block, if it's the same as later engines. I've never assembled an Eldo engine.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

There was no gasket for the front main bearing in the kit, is that normal?
I have 4 identical thick (1/8") gaskets that look like they go between head and intake manifold, do I use 2 on each.

No gasket for the front main bearing because one isn't needed - it runs in oil on both sides, so no gasket is used.

Two manifold gaskets on each side to isolate the manifolds from heat. Should have fiber isolators on each of the 6 manifold fixing bolts as well.

Greg's list says 33 to 35 lb for self locking bolts, my bolts are not self locking they have a little bend up tab, I think the thread is 8mm (13mm socket)
Have I screwed up ???

Question No 2, moving on I decided to put the flywheel back on the only problem is it will go in any of 6 different positions, At one point there is a nice
arrow and a bit further around a couple of punch marks. How do I line up the flywheel?

Front main bearing bolt locking.
I found a bunch of normal split spring washers and duly put one on each bolt but when I put the cam shaft cog on it fouls the bolt heads, without the spring washers it's fine, Is there supposed to be anything holding these bolts?

The camshaft has about 1mm of end float, is that normal?

Rod bolts with locking tabs get torqued to 25 ft. lbs. (yellow cover factory shop manual says 25.31 in the con-rod section). If you torqued to 33, there's a very good chance that you've compromised the strength of the bolts and I wouldn't re(re)use them.

Flywheel: there is an arrow stamped into it on the outer surface. Turn the crank to TDC for the left cylinder, align the arrow with a pointy nub cast into the "bellhousing" of the engine behind the left cylinder and the bolts holes should line up. You can also use right cylinder TDC and the right side pointer. Use new grade 10.9 bolts, schnoor washers and blue Loctite, torque to 30 ft. lbs.

Some of the following doesn't apply because it's a Tonti engine, but it'll give you the general idea.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith_2013-03-19_install_the_flywheel_and_clutch.html

There should be a faint line on the back face of the flywheel that aligns with the stamped in arrow on the edge. Line up the dot on one tooth of the clutch pressure plate with that line.

Originally, Guzzi used locking plates under the main bearing bolts, later they went with DIN137 wave washers. That is what I use. I also apply Hondabond 4 to the (new grade 8.8 ) bolts as a low-strength thread locker.

Is that 1 mm of cam end-float with cam gear/sprocket installed and torqued to spec? The gear/sprocket and cam retainer control end float.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thanks Charlie, I will order some new bolts, these were the originals I destroyed. I will also ask Greg to put a note on his torque sheet.

I have the new flywheel bolts from MG Cycle
Thanks for the link, I will use that.


No, I just slipped the gear on to test it then found if pushed back it clashed with the main bearing bolt heads, I just guessed
it was about 1mm. I will get some of the proper washers, the rear main bolts have the locking tabs.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Waiting on some bolts and fancy Schnorr washers for the new flywheel bolts I decided to proceed with installing the Gilardoni kits, how hard can that be?
There's not a skerrick of information with these kits just a barrel a piston and 3 rings in a plain cardboard box looking quite different from the originals.
The rings are nicely marked Top on one side but two are the same width, a stepped one and a plain one, so I tossed a coin then decided the stepped one must be for the top grove.

The pistons have a few letters and a triangle on top with one large valve pocket so I took my chances and assumed the triangle faced forward with the large valve pocket for the inlet valve - like so with a few drops of 3 in 1 and some assembly oil.


Of course the first time was just for practice  ???, I missed the fine print in Charlie's instruction (reply# 83) and left the "O" rings off the two short studs on top of the base gasket. There's a hole in the base gasket to line up with the oil drain so you really can't mess up there.

I should have called it a night at this stage but no, I couldn't wait to get the heads on for the first time in 25 years.
Amazingly I found all the nuts though some were pretty rusty, a couple of washers that look like they must fit on the two short outside studs these were soaking in oil.

So I slapped the heads on with the "O" rings under the rocker stands as instructed this time, just nipped up the nuts then stood back to admire my work.







Wait







for






it







 ;D








In good Canuck style, it's ok to laugh, I'm sure I'm not alone. At least I didn't torque them down ::)

A couple of questions for the experts.
Is there supposed to be a washer under the tubular nuts on the inside stud? I didn't see any with the rusty bits.
What is the real purpose for the "O" rings on the studs? it doesn't seem like oil would likely get down there.

Please point out any other mistakes (besides starting this project in the first place ;D)
(the old bolts in the flywheel are just so I can turn it over)

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The rings are nicely marked Top on one side but two are the same width, a stepped one and a plain one, so I tossed a coin then decided the stepped one must be for the top groove.

A couple of questions for the experts.
Is there supposed to be a washer under the tubular nuts on the inside stud? I didn't see any with the rusty bits.
What is the real purpose for the "O" rings on the studs? it doesn't seem like oil would likely get down there.

The ring with the step is the second ring from the top and the step goes down. The "plain" one is the top ring. These instructions weren't in the box?

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/gilardoni_installation_instructions.pdf

Yes, there should be a washer under the socket head nut that goes at the 12 o-clock position. Most times it's stuck to the head (easy to tell if it is with a magnet). If it's missing, it's not too difficult to grind down the o.d. of a normal flat washer to fit. IIRC, you can buy them from the "usual suspects" as well.

The top four o-rings under the rocker stand are to keep oil from leaking down the long studs. The two on the short studs? Dunno. <shrug>

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nice neat and orderly work place for engine building, KR.. ~; ;D

Sorry, I just had to say something..

[Kiwi_Roy]

Nice neat and orderly work place for engine building, KR.. ~; ;D

Sorry, I just had to say something..

Haha,
          Yes, I live in an apartment, this is my storage locker. It actually works quite well, if I had a big space I would have a big mess. It also acts as an electronic repair bench, that pays for the bikes.
My :wife: hasn't visited in a while

[normzone]

It's BEAUTIFUL. That brings back some great Eldorado memories from 35 years ago, and a second trip into those same regions 25 years ago.

Thanks for sharing.

[Kiwi_Roy]

 Charlie,
           No, both boxes had been opened and there was no paperwork whatsoever
The rings were in the bores holding the pistons in place, I installed them in the same order, they are marked TOP
I trust I have the pistons in the right way at least, triangle facing forward large pocket for inlet.
I might have known Murphy had something to do with it, won't take long to move the rings.


WOT, no smart comments on my head orientation, you are just too polite.

Don't you know we wear our hats backwards North of the border ;D

Thanks
Roy

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Charlie,
           No, both boxes had been opened and there was no paperwork whatsoever
The rings were in the bores holding the pistons in place, I installed them in the same order, they are marked TOP
I trust I have the pistons in the right way at least, triangle facing forward large pocket for inlet.
I might have known Murphy had something to do with it, won't take long to move the rings.


WOT, no smart comments on my head orientation, you are just too polite.

Don't you know we wear our hats backwards North of the border ;D

Thanks
Roy

Yes, triangle/arrow facing forwards - "scarico" (exhaust).

Heads are on correctly if you're building the engine for the forward position of an aircraft.  ;) ;D

[normzone]

WOT, no smart comments on my head orientation, you are just too polite.

Don't you know we wear our hats backwards North of the border ;D

Thanks
Roy

Oh...yeah, I guess the flywheel is not usually to the front. I was focused on the old-school threaded exhaust collars - those things caused me no end of grief.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yes, triangle/arrow facing forwards - "scarico" (exhaust).

Heads are on correctly if you're building the engine for the forward position of an aircraft.  ;) ;D

True, I don't have a problem with the head orientation.  ;D Now, the engine building area.... as far as I'm concerned there is just no way for it to be clean enough to build engines.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry Chuck, I have no space for any more engines.
You will have to get them built somewhere else :BEER:
 

[Kiwi_Roy]

That looks better, I finally got the rings in the right spot, the heads on straight and torqued up to 30 lb


In my less than pristine storage locker / Electronic repair shop / Engine bay  ;D


A few months back when the Giladoni kits were unobtanium I had planned on adding a filter between the pump and main bearings
I got pretty far along with that when the kits came on the market. I may still add a filter but likely just in the pressure relief circuit.

A filter and the fitting of a Honda Civic fits nicely into the sump space.

[dl.allen]

With my Gillardoni kit I had the older style head gasket with round holes and the pushrods ate into the sides of them.  Check to see if you have the newer oval hole gasket that provides clearance.  I ended up doing mine twice.  Like you said no instructions and it was a while ago

[Kiwi_Roy]

With my Gillardoni kit I had the older style head gasket with round holes and the pushrods ate into the sides of them.  Check to see if you have the newer oval hole gasket that provides clearance.  I ended up doing mine twice.  Like you said no instructions and it was a while ago

I think you may be right, I will check for sure.
Did you use the 850 or 1000 Gilidoni kit?

[Kiwi_Roy]

In the meantime I have been working away at the wheels, it's 25 years since these tires saw the pavement.


There's no substitute for a good nipple wrench to get them off, luckily a friend loaned me one.
Getting the spokes out was made easier by drilling end on into a piece of bar which gives support to the spoke when you tap
with a hammer, otherwise they can buckle. It also protects the thread although it doesn't matter for the old steel ones.

A length of brass rod or tube turned down to fit through the nipple hole would have been even better.


I have all the rims and hubs polished, its just a matter of finding time to sit down and thread the spokes in, something else I
haven't done before. Perhaps I should stick to Electrickery eh!

[canuck750]

Hi Roy,

These cheap wheel balancers work great.



A Princess Auto dial indicator does wonders for accuracy



Guzzi wheels are very easy to build and true, do the up down 1st and then the side to side.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Jim,
      The wheel balancer looks good alright, I'll probably knock something up from wood using that image, I have no place to store stuff and I would never use it again. Thanks for the tip on trueing them up. The image of an old Ford model A I saw in a parade springs to mind, it had wheels deliberately about 2" out of true, literally bounced down the road, I'm going for that look  ;D


The new rod bolts arrived so I installed those to 25# this time then installed the flywheel with new bolts and washers
Charlie had pointed me to an excellent tutorial by Roy Smith Greg Bender back in reply #98.

I must say I am really impressed by the Schnorr washers, If you torque up a bolt using a regular split washer it takes no effort at all to loosen it again, not so with the Schnorr, those little buggers get a real grip.

Greg uses a fancy alignment tool which of course I don't have, this uses the thread in the center of the shaft to compress the clutch springs.
So I whipped up a simple alignment jig out of scrap aluminum. Because there is an uneven number of teeth in the spline it sits in the valley on one side but on the peak opposite.

I had to be very careful lining up the intermediate plate, as the springs compress using the outer bolts the plate has to slip into the splines of the flywheel.  I used a rocking motion with a pair of bolts half a turn at a time and it slipped in second time.
I did a dry run with the gearbox, it slipped together without any drama.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The new rod bolts arrived so I installed those to 25# this time then installed the flywheel.
Charlie had pointed me to an excellent tutorial by Roy Smith back in reply #98.

Roy uses a fancy alignment too which of course I don't have, this uses the thread in the center of the shaft to compress the clutch springs
So I whipped up a simple alignment jig out of scrap aluminum. Because there is an uneven number of teeth in the spline ***************

Err... That tutorial was by Greg Bender, he was rebuilding Roy Smith's engine.

Instead of the "fancy alignment tool" I just use a clutch hub with bushing in the center and the proper length bolt. Simple. Cheap. Effective.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry Charlie, I fixed that reference.
Yes a spare hub would be nice, I have to make do without the special tools since this is a once off project.
I really enjoy making stuff from aluminum, with a coping saw and drill, you can carve stuff out in minutes.
I'm quite proud of my $10 valve spring compressor back in post 95.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Sorry Charlie, I fixed that reference.
Yes a spare hub would be nice, I have to make do without the special tools since this is a once off project.
I really enjoy making stuff

You don't even need a spare. Have you done anything to the transmission yet? You'll want to replace the seals and o-rings at the very least, and in that process will have the hub off.

[Kiwi_Roy]

No, I haven't had the box apart yet, I suspect by the gasket cement it's been apart before, I ordered new seals & gaskets for the box and the rear end.
Talking seals, the rear main seal was so hard it was brittle but no sign of a leak at all.

I think the clutch has been done at some time because there was an old plate in the box of parts and had regular spring washers on the outside bolts. BTW what is the setting on those ones, do I need Loctite, I put it on the 6 center bolts.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

No, I haven't had the box apart yet, I suspect by the gasket cement it's been apart before, I ordered new seals & gaskets for the box and the rear end.
Talking seals, the rear main seal was so hard it was brittle but no sign of a leak at all.

I think the clutch has been done at some time because there was an old plate in the box of parts and had regular spring washers on the outside bolts. BTW what is the setting on those ones, do I need Loctite, I put it on the 6 center bolts.

The bolts holding the "ring gear" to the flywheel? I replace those with new grade 8.8 bolts with schnoor washers (no Loctite) and torque them to the factory specified 22 ft. lbs.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I stripped down the gearbox to examine the internals
Before you start on the gearbox I highly recommend reading this.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf
Of course I left my copy at work  ???

There was some sign of previous violence. The shop rag is to hold the needle rollers in place.

To hold the gearbox shaft while I tightened the nut I used an old clutch plate with a wrench and luggage scale.
Is that nut really supposed to be 115 - 130#, 90 felt about right. I'm sure it was nowhere near as tight when I undid it.

I got everything bolted back together and tried to shift, hello floppy gear lever so pulled the end of to find this.

It must have been ready to snap because there's no way I put that much force into the lever.
Better to break now than 6 months later on the road somewhere I guess.
I didn't know the pawl spring was a problem on the older guzzis, I have heard of them breaking on the later bikes.

I found this little sucker floating around in the box, there was a similar size one inside the distributor.

Reading John's tutorial later, "So that's where that little ball came from" it locks the worm drive for the speedo.