Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread

[Unkept]

Well my garage is a work in progress... have a pseudo bench up.

My main accomplishment was tonight, removing the engine. That's a heavy lump.  ;)



If all goes well I'll be hanging out with Chuck and Dorcia this weekend while my wife Lindsey is at a gaming convention in New Jersey for her freelance work.

Chuck said he could help me look over the engine in a light tear down. I know there will be damage, I just hope it isn't *too* bad.

Sorry everyone for the slow updates. :(

Edit: Also I apologize for not taking pictures. It's been a late night and I totally blew it off. All bolts came free fairly easily, except one of the lower engine frame bracket bolts. I had to use a lot of penetrate fluid and heat to get it to break free.

You have to free the throttle bodies to get at the top nuts holding the studs for the transmission and engine. I also pulled the front sub-frame for maneuverability. The fairing came off again too... ummm, be sure to disconnect the alternator wires, cam sensor, oil pressure sensor, head temp sensor, any ground wires to your timing case if you have them, oil cooler lines, and engine breather hose and whatnot before dropping the engine.

Maybe I'll take pictures putting it back together.  ;D

-Joe

[lemans1000]

What's your plan with engine? What you will do?

[Unkept]

What's your plan with engine? What you will do?

Hey!

We are going to tear it down and measure/inspect to see how damaged or worn parts are.

My budget is low but I would like to get an idea of the work required. If needed I may take my time to save up and get some "upgrades" done, but we aren't there yet. ;)

I found copper flakes in the sump, so I *need* to take a good look see.

I haven't forgotten about your request... I'll try to do that as well!

Thanks for your interest,
Joe

[Unkept]

So an update! At long last...

The project took a halt when I found this.




I was a bit disturbed, and knew this was going to cost me some money... money I didn't (still kind of don't!) have.

So I delayed, and delayed... until I had some free time to free the engine and Chuck said I could swing by with the sad mill.

So I removed all cables, evap hose, transmission bolts and engine mounts. You have to pull the fairing on a V11 LeMans as well to do this. Next Guzzi, buy naked.  ;)  ;D



So, I loaded it into my VW and brought it to Chuck. Who reminds me that he *is not* a Guzzi mechanic.  ;-T



So Chuck and I began to dig in. We had the help of Pete/Vasco's advice from here ->http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical_engine-strip-pictures.htm

Thanks Pete.  ;-T

First we got each cylinder to top dead center and checked compression.


Chuck's technique was to watch the valves move as they should both be closed, and on the compression stroke. We watched the valves... used a small wooden dowel/chopstick to find the piston, and looked at the flywheel for the cylinder marks.

"S" is the driver's left cylinder I suppose, and "D" is the driver's right. I always get confused on trying to describe cylinders orientation on bikes...



We used this compression tester which fits into the spark plug hole.


We also had to use handyandy's flywheel locking tool when compressing cylinder D. Thanks Andy!

I can't seem to find the note right now... but compression was "good" on the S side, 78/80 psi I believe. D was not quite as good at 76/80. The issues were that "S" was leaking through the exhaust, and "D" was leaking past the rings into the crankcase, and slightly through the intake. We later learned why the exhaust leak was there on S...

Next, we pulled the upper components of each cylinder. We did this at top dead center on each cylinder, so there was no tension from open valve positions or anything...


Use your valve covers as a storage bin of sorts.  ;)



At this point we ran into a stud that was frozen solid on cylinder D. Chuck went looking for a breaker bar in his Guzzi Garge™... so I took some pics of the valves using a flashlight.

Exhaust valve S

Intake valve S

Exhaust valve D

Intake valve D


So I'm already thinking "ugh those valves look nasty..." and a head rebuild is probably in the plans... but onward!

Make sure to pull the head's oil line before removing the head studs.



We pulled the rest of the components with relative ease.


Chuck had the genius idea of labeling and sorting things properly. Here is the pushrod box idea he had! I'll never forget these ideas... thanks Chuck.
So we label the box for "S" and "D" cylinder, and then for Intake and Exhaust. I was told that the pushrods break into the lifters and the lifter to the cam, so on and so forth... keep them sorted!



Here is cylinder "D"'s head free! As you can see, the top stud is completely removed... because the end securing nut was frozen solid on there. No big deal, but odd.


Chuck labeled that sucker.


We tried to pull the cylinder without going past the piston's rings... but to no avail on cylinder "D".



Next you have to remove the clips holding the piston pin to the small ends of the connecting rods.


This is where I was thinking some damage might be, but the bearings look good. Chuck measured all of the bearings in the engine, and none were out of spec.



I'm going to skip the removal of cylinder "S". It was the same process, but I made sure to prevent the con rod of cylinder "D" from knocking around when we switched to TDC on "D".

Also, we used a rubber mallet to free the cylinder from the gaskets. There are two o rings on each clyinder where the base gasket goes, the top and bottom studs. They will need removed and replaced with new.

Next, we remove the con rods.


Cylinder "D"'s rod I believe here. It had some scratch/damage but measured to spec. Chuck thinks all bearings and re-usable.

The "S" rod looked new...


Now we can peek in on the crank.



Not sure what happened to my pics, but we removed each lifter and labeled them for the cylinder and whether it was exhaust or intake. They all looked great.

Now we're really confused as to where those flakes came from. No sign of the damage yet...


We take the front cover and timing components off. Be sure to have your 32mm deep socket. Thanks again Fotoguzzi for letting me borrow yours!
At this stage we began to bag each set of components. Be sure not to lose your oil pump key, crankshaft key, etc. other small parts! The washer for the oil pump pulley was broken... I must have done it I think.  :-\




We then removed the pieces of the clutch and flywheel assembly. We used air tools as it helped reduce the spinning effect of the assembly, and made this job much faster! Lots of bolts...

Hmm... more photos that are missing. I might add them later here if I can find them. Basically a lot of bolts and a particular order to the plates, with springs in there as well. collect your parts and bag em'!





Now... in Pete's manual there were some worries about removal the rear main and front main bearings... but in my engine, they popped out with ease only requiring some light taps! No bearing removal tools necessary.



Another good looking bearing surface.


We pulled the crank out the back, and measured it. All looks well...



Next, we pull the phonic wheel from the cam.



We thought maybe the damage was from the cam thrust plate, but it looks new!


Here's the cam, minor wear but nothing bad. Will definitely reuse this...



So we notice some metal grit in the oil sitting below the oil pump. Time for that baby to come out.



Oh my.





It was missing a bearing!
.


See this thread if you want to read more about our bearing mystery->http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73169.msg1141270#msg1141270
We came to the conclusion that when the engine was last torn apart for a case replacement under warranty, the bearing may have been lost. *shrug* Oh well.

We pulled the front main bearing. Here is the oil passage for it... bearing looks good as well.



I find the Guzzi engine design to be pretty on the inside.  ;)


Next, we open the crank sludge trap. Bound to be more of that metal shrapnel stuck in there. Cleaning it is a *must* otherwise a rebuild will just remain contaminated.

It was a tight bolt! It was staked in so it wouldn't spin out... it wasn't going anywhere. lol


Looking in was impossible with focusing the camera, but trust me... it was nasty sludge.


Chuck took the crank over to his clean machine which had water and some crazy solvent to clean steel. You can't use it on aluminum parts though, it would dissolve the aluminum!  


Reset our plug and we have a cleaned out crank.


Now... the only parts we haven't torn down yet are the heads. We wanted to avoid that, but we found the source of our copper colored flakes to be... *drumroll*

BROKEN EXHAUST SPRINGS AND VALVE GUIDE!!! Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!


Being who he is, Chuck happened to have a valve compression tool he *made* for his Lario rebuild.



Here he is using the chopstick to remove the locking caps from the valve assembly. Don't lose those tiny suckers...


Ouch. We believe a piece of the valve spring went down the heads into the sump and were sucked into the oil pump. Hence the earlier damage seen.

The source of the flakes!



We lightly cleaned out the heads where we saw some contaminate... but they'll need rebuild anyways I'm sure.


Well kids that's all I've got for now. We boxed everything and bagged a ton of little parts. My engine is now something like 9 boxes of parts.  :o  ;D

I'm not sure what the cost for headwork and parts will be. I'll likely compile the list of things to order soon. It's been a learning experience for sure...

Hopefully I'll have the bike back together and running by Spring! Only thing left after the engine will be body work and a transmission rebuild. Why stop here?  ;)

I'll just be glad to have learned more about the bike in general, and I'm happy if my forum friends are entertained.

-Joe

P.S. My wife and I are entertaining the idea of a move to Germany... if it happens, this bike will sadly go up for sale. I don't know if/when this will happen yet though... but if anyone here might be interested in buying my bike from me please let me know. It would be fairly priced, and once it's done... you'll have a fairly well refreshed V11 LeMans. ;)

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, I think the bronze from the guide was what went through the pump. IIRC, we found all the spring parts, although a little no doubt went into the pan. That was Stoddard solvent in the wash tank. No problemo with aluminum..
Goes to show you how robust Guzzi engines are. Fairly high mileage, and everything checks as new. Looking at the leak down, if I was a cheap Guzzi guy, I'd probably reuse the rings.  :o

"S" is the driver's left cylinder I suppose, and "D" is the driver's right. I always get confused on trying to describe cylinders orientation on bikes...

Hello? You are looking in the inspection hole at the flywheel. S stands for "Snot dis side." D... "Dis side." <shrug>  ;D

[Unkept]

Well, I think the bronze from the guide was what went through the pump. IIRC, we found all the spring parts, although a little no doubt went into the pan. That was Stoddard solvent in the wash tank. No problemo with aluminum..
Goes to show you how robust Guzzi engines are. Fairly high mileage, and everything checks as new. Looking at the leak down, if I was a cheap Guzzi guy, I'd probably reuse the rings.  :o
Hello? You are looking in the inspection hole at the flywheel. S stands for "Snot dis side." D... "Dis side." <shrug>  ;D

Thanks for the clarification Chuck, and thanks again for the help!

I really *do* like the engine design... I was thinking that if we do move to Germany, my next bike needs to be another Guzzi project.

I want to tear a small block down now.  ;D

Oh yes, your S and D identification method does work well! I apologize for not writing it down...  ;-T

-Joe

[fotoguzzi]

I thought it was Sinistro as in Left Handed..

as I was reading I'm thinking, boy I hope your planning to keep this bike forever..  so what's in Germany? I know there is a vibrant Guzzi community..

[Unkept]

I thought it was Sinistro as in Left Handed..

as I was reading I'm thinking, boy I hope your planning to keep this bike forever..  so what's in Germany? I know there is a vibrant Guzzi community..

Well... you could spoil the fun and make me translate it.  ;)  ;D

Left= Sinistra

Right =Destra

Wrenchin' and learnin' Italian.

My wife's family history is in Germany... her potential dual citizenship is German/US Citizen... we've both always been fascinated by the "Old World" so to speak.

The basic concept is that we both would embrace the adventure of learning a new culture and experiencing a new lifestyle.

Also, yes, the Guzzi community there is huge and I think I'd find many events/friends fairly quickly in those circles.  ;-T

I could also make it to Mandello del Lario much easier from there...  :)

[zedXmick]

Thanks for the update....and the good news on the engine. Glad it wasn't way worse.  Wish you the best of luck if you and yours move to Germany....I'd love to sample some German beer with ya some day. As far a your V11,I'd sure be interested in it if you make the big jump over the pond. Does your private "not a Guzzi mechanic" come with the bike??  Chuck kudos to you, I'd have to move to Indiana just to get closer to the "not a Guzzi mechanic".

This thread  ;-T

[balvenie]

Those pics were excellent ;-T ;D

[EvanM]

Good to see that its finally making some progress Joe!
Hopefully if I'm down that way next summer, I'll be able to see it/ you guys/ Chuck!

[Unkept]

Thanks for the update....and the good news on the engine. Glad it wasn't way worse.  Wish you the best of luck if you and yours move to Germany....I'd love to sample some German beer with ya some day. As far a your V11,I'd sure be interested in it if you make the big jump over the pond. Does your private "not a Guzzi mechanic" come with the bike??  Chuck kudos to you, I'd have to move to Indiana just to get closer to the "not a Guzzi mechanic".

This thread  ;-T

Thanks! I'll keep you in mind.  :)

Chuck has his own Aero Guzzi project he needs to attend to. ;) I should probably stop asking him for help.  ;D

Those pics were excellent ;-T ;D

Thanks for the encouragement!

Good to see that its finally making some progress Joe!
Hopefully if I'm down that way next summer, I'll be able to see it/ you guys/ Chuck!

Hey Evan,

Thanks for taking a look. If we aren't gone by next Summer, I'll do my best to meet up with you. It was great meeting you at Elkader!

Well all, so far I might have a source for a good used oil pump... going to contact Mike Rich next week most likely to ask about the head repairs.

We are also meeting some people in Chicago next week about the German thing... a consulate office party and maybe a translator. Exciting.

-Joe

[Unkept]

Joe , are you going to Germany as kind of a hostage exchange for Bill Hagan , just to keep everyone happy ? :D

  Dusty

 :D Maybe ;D

I received a response from Mike Rich on head repair/freshening...

A little pricier than I can afford at this moment. So I'm weighing my options, and it will probably be delayed until Spring... whatever I do.  ;D

Maybe this Winter I'll at least get some of the other parts/pieces together and ready. I'll try and piece together cheap or free (Guzzi content) parts as I can.  ;-T

I really wanted to have Mike port the heads... but it can over double the cost so I don't think I'll go down that path. Chuck's Scura *does* sound fun though, but I don't think I can afford to get this engine to match that potential.

Thanks for all of the positive responses! It's been fun for me, both working on the bike and posting about it.

-Joe

[John Ulrich]

 S & D.  I always think D is the Driveshaft side.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I really wanted to have Mike port the heads... but it can over double the cost so I don't think I'll go down that path.

Seriously, you can keep the cost to a minimum by having a shop just install a new guide, and touch up that seat. Lap it in and you're golden. The valves weren't leaking (except that one) on the leak down test...
I'll bet you would be good for many 10 of thousands of miles just by doing that.

[Howard R]

S & D.  I always think D is the Driveshaft side.

If you're fluent in ancient Guzzi, S = starter & D = distributor.  Although in more modern times D = driveshaft works too.
Howard

[Unkept]

Seriously, you can keep the cost to a minimum by having a shop just install a new guide, and touch up that seat. Lap it in and you're golden. The valves weren't leaking (except that one) on the leak down test...
I'll bet you would be good for many 10 of thousands of miles just by doing that.

Hey Chuck,

I may just have to... I was just let known my pay is being cut 25% for at *least* the month of December...

*sigh*

If you're fluent in ancient Guzzi, S = starter & D = distributor.  Although in more modern times D = driveshaft works too.
Howard

Another good one!

*Starts looking for another job*
-Joe

[nobleswood]

Unkept,

I've been re reading and enjoying your V11 repair and was wondering how are you getting on and what are your plans for the bike?

[Unkept]

Hey Nobleswood!

Thanks for the comment and question.

Due to financial and time reasons (plus getting into playing guitar a lot in my free time...) I haven't gotten much further from my last post.

I did just receive a good oil pump from Fotoguzzi (thanks!) but I haven't decided what to do about headwork yet.

Plans for the bike... To get it ridable this year I hope. There are a couple things I've left as optional... Steering damper replacement or rebuild, and bodywork. I *might* get some good overtime at work next month, but I have no guarantees... If I do, some of the money will go into the bike.

The Germany move is still super gray at the moment, so the LeMans will be my bike for the foreseeable future.

Though I'm quite happy just riding my wife's Breva 750... But the LeMans with the full exhaust and new pod filters (gonna have to do some GuzziDiag tuning) will likely be intoxicating.

[Unkept]

SOoooooooo....

Lindsey and I are moving to Germany. I haven't finished the bike, just bought some tools to get back to it too...

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=86351.msg1361832#msg1361832

The bike project is for sale, everything included for $2800 obo. We are moving December 4rth! It's all so sudden.

Thank you everyone who posted encouragement and has mentored and helped me throughout the years.

Chuck especially has been an amazing friend during this saga.

I hope to have another Guzzi someday, maybe a V9 in Germany?

Please don't hesitate to make an offer on the bike... the sooner we can clear out of here the better.

-Joe

P.S. This is the view from where we are moving.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ahh, just saw this. It would be a good winter project.. somebody buy it so I don't have to. 
<thinly disguised bump>

[nobleswood]

Considering all the parts & all the work already done, it does look like a really good deal.

[Unkept]

Considering all the parts & all the work already done, it does look like a really good deal.

Thanks Nobleswood,

I hope someone will get to me and make a deal... either someone can build a freshened up V11 LeMans or they could part it out / keep the nice bits.

If anyone knows someone looking for one, and can spread the word, I sincerely appreciate it. I have to clear out of here...

-Joe

[Scud]

I bought Joe's LeMans a few months ago. He loosely assembled it back into a "roller" so we could use HaulBikes. It's been sitting in the corner while I finished up some work on my Scura.

I'm not going to go into as much detail as Joe, but I'll post some updates as I get the bike back in shape and back to stock configuration. After I finish it, I intend to put a couple thousand miles on it and then sell it.

So... Here's how it showed up at my place - with the crankshaft in a saddlebag. 



And here she is as of today:

[JesterGrin_1]

Magic Presto amazing what a Grenade can do lol. :) I am sure a dozen people will be watching with great interest. No  :1: Here. :)

[oldbike54]

 Wondered what happened to Joe's bike . Onya Scud 

 Dusty

[Scud]

Wondered what happened to Joe's bike . Onya Scud 

 Dusty

If you're interested, there's a little more to my part of the story over at V11LeMans:  http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19680

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, that was a trip down memory lane.  Scud, you asked me if I'd serviced the forks and I didn't remember.    It's documented on this thread. I wonder where all the pix went? I don't see any after page 4 or so..

[Scud]

I assume you enjoyed the trip...  Nice job on the forks.    I hope to ride it within a couple months. -maybe to the Not-a-Rally in AZ. That would be a good, motivating goal for me.

   I assume Joe hosted some off-site and links are now broken.

As for the title of this thread... repairs will continue, restoration in progress... The poor transmission is caked with oily dirt from the prior leaks.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I assume you enjoyed the trip...  Nice job on the forks.    I hope to ride it within a couple months. -maybe to the Not-a-Rally in AZ. That would be a good, motivating goal for me.

   I assume Joe hosted some off-site and links are now broken.

As for the title of this thread... repairs will continue, restoration in progress... The poor transmission is caked with oily dirt from the prior leaks.

That's a shame.. he went to a lot of trouble doing all that documentation.. and it was good stuff. Sometimes a picture *is* worth a thousand words.