Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?

[dddd]

The stepper is not the cause, it just does what the ecu tells it to do. That shutting it off makes a difference just tells us the stepper is opened by the ecu at some moments we don't like. All result of the conditions and parameters the ecu sees.
I have it too. But I noticed the clutch switch doesn't do it's work, even when pulled. When at redlight, idle stays high, until I goto nutral. When I goto first gear then again, idle stays down.

Yes what you are saying is correct, it is obviously the ECU that is controlling the stepper. I can report that if you shift it into neutral before you stop you don't get the high idle, in other words it only happens when in gear, clutch in or out makes no difference.

[canuguzzi]

I have about 500 miles on the bew map now.  Idle drops immediately to 1100 as soon as it settles down from cold start. Warm,  hot doesn't matter,  rpms drop lime a stone to 1100 and sit there.

Had a 97degree day today but also a cool part of the ride along the coast through marine layer.  Made no difference in the idle.

Engine still feels busy compared to stock. Stock map was elecric smooth too so not much to compare there. 

[nikwax]

Ran out to the coast and back today with the Mrs., 200 miles, climbing and high speed work. Very nice and smooth, I didn't notice any issues with the return to idle.


I think each map has been a definite improvement over stock, and the last two have been very sophisticated. Impressive that you can keep making this better. Happy me.

[Vasco DG]

Engine still feels busy compared to stock. Stock map was elecric smooth too so not much to compare there. 

 This has to make me wonder about other aspects of the tune. Bike is stock? No aftermarket bits? Serviced correctly? Only one air bleed open and TB's balanced correctly?

Pete

[frans belgium]

Running the previous version since a couple of months, I am now getting starting problems and pinging from 5000 rpm up.

[Vasco DG]

Frans, the map is open loop, it doesn't self trim using the O2 sensor so logic dictates that something else must be causing what is happening with your bike.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

This has to make me wonder about other aspects of the tune. Bike is stock? No aftermarket bits? Serviced correctly? Only one air bleed open and TB's balanced correctly?

Pete

Engine tune is spot on.  The Norge runs flawlessly in stock trim,  since day one feom dealer new.  I've never experienced the roughness,  surging or anything else others have reported.  There are no aftermarket parts on the bike.  Running the stock map,  the engine is smooth,  idle is steady,  pulls from off idle without a shudder even at full throttle (2k and up), cruises at nearly any speed I'm nit leery of running without so much as a hiccup.

I recently completed a long run,  got mid to upper 40s mpg without trying too hard (see my out of gas post).  Both mirrors are clear at any rideable speed,  I can read passed signs on the other side of the road,  all with the stock map.

Maybe I got a good one but I won't complain or mess with what is good.

The new maps works just fine,  I do feel the engine seems less relaxed at the spwed ranges noted.  It isnt a bad thing,  just different and after now about 500 miles to compare,  I prefer the srock map because the engine just feels better running it.  Sitting at a stop light,  the idle is smoother stock even through the new map settles down nicely feom higher rpms but so did the stock map.

I am able and have run stock and then the new map one right after the other so that how each ran was a fresh and comparative experience.

I've ridden enough bikes so I know when a bike has a good tune,  even with 4 carb fours like the finicky V65 84 Sabre,  ST1100 and now more than 35 others.

I feel blessed because how well the Norge runs being stock and not having the stated issues others have related with the 8V Norge.

The new map seems clean and I have no complaints about it,  my observations perhaps didn't come up to a completely new bike feel as some have related since it wasn't bad to start with. 

I have had a bike with a bad map from stock (05 V-Strom DL1000) that needed several different maps to make rideable enough to trust it and which Suzuki finally put in a new ECU.  Now there was a bike that was tranformed with a good map and ECU but the Norge hasnt had a single issue as far as how the engine performs.

I tried the map to see if I was missing something because you don't know until you try it.

I am glad that for some it makes a night and day difference and in the end,  that is all that matters. I do appreciate the obvious hard work that went into making these new maps,  who knows,  some iteration might turn on a light in my Norge so please don't take my expwrience as a negative just different.

[canuguzzi]

I do want to add that the stock TPS was 4.7 and I noted that when following the Guzzidiag instructions.  The new map would never reset back to that,  alwaya going to 4.8 and jumping numbers a bit and I never touched the throttle during that time or when guzzidiag was connected.

The stock map will no longer return to 4.7 but does remain rock solid at 4.8 so I can't explain why stock is steady but new one is not.

I would have expected the TP to reset to the stock 4.7 but it does bot.  I would consider a problem or issue with the ecu itself or somewhere in the tune if it ran poorly with the stock  map but that isn't  the case.  While I understand thw difference isn't one to worry about,  it is strange it can't be reset to what is was in original state.

[Waltr]

  Pilot,  two questions about your experience with the new maps:
1) have you compared fuel mileage?
2) Where do you have CO fuel trim set?

My experience on smoothness for any of these maps comes down to a compromise of fuel trim.  The lower the number better the mileage higher numbers smoother operation.   Understand on closed loop the fuel is trimmed for you except when dropping out of closed loop in my experience more fuel is added than needed.  This can be seen on the bike if you monitor instant fuel mileage in closed loop, grab some throttle  and notice how long the numbers take to clear and go back up when throttle backed off or backed off completely. 
I use a Carbmate to adjustthe throttle bodies. It has a series of finer and finer steps and each  finer step requires a further adjustment to center the balance.  I do not judge my throttle body balance useing my mirrors of grips as a guide.  For me I reach behind and put a hand on the passenger grap rails.  When my throttle body balance is right on there is next to nothing for vibration there no matter the throttle position or road speed.  Something else I notice is if I adjust the fuel trim to where the idle is smooth and response to throttle is good my mirrors are smoother going down the road.  Don't you run the risers you made? They could be changing the harmonics.

[canuguzzi]

Waltr,

The mileage hasn't changed appreciably. Most of the recent riding and all of it with the new map has been varied with a concentration on speeds that don't get me into 6th much. Given that, I haven't noticed a significant change in the MPG, I still get mid to upper 40s consistently although one hotdog run did drop it considerably.

I haven't changed the CO fuel trim from what is in the map. That could change something things so if changing the Co is part of adjusting the map, perhaps I could explore that.

When testing the map and comparing it to stock I did keep good records of the experience and perceptions. I rode the same roads with only some variation in traffic and ambient temps but all were pretty much the same runs. After the initial shorter runs I gave longer runs a shot. Those went about 120 miles each but instead of swapping back and forth I changed every two and when I got two runs in I changed maps. Got to close to 500 miles until today. Lots of riding in a really short period of time.

The risers actually reduced what little vibes I had with the stock map. All the mounting bolts are properly torques and wisely, I did not use any lubricants or penetrates to loosen the stubborn handlebar mounting bolts because the handlebars are rubber isolated from the factory and squirting any lube or penetrates on them would surely have an adverse effect, if not right away, over time it would. They would also be expensive to replace as it would mean a new triple clamp.

With the stock map, there is the typical slight and muted throbbing of engine pulses but right off idle they are practically non-existent. I am pretty sensitive  to vibration and have often changed final drive ratios if a bike exhibited vibration at my usual riding speeds. The Triumph Trophy 1200 had some vibes above 4k that bothered few people, I changed out to a 21 tooth countershaft to put the revs lower to avoid them. Same thing with the Honda in-line fours I've had.

When I bought the Norge and before pickup, I expected vibes, having read here some complaints about them. When I got the bike and took it out for the first time I thought for sure everyone was talking only about the older 2V model because there was an absence of them present with this one.

I can only assume, and I don't mind being the ass on this account, that I was lucky, Luigi was well rested, was happy and focused the day he put this Norge together. Maybe the stars all aligned on that day but from the moment I hit the starter it has been nothing but pure joy, aside from the self tightening oil filter and tough to undo handlebar mounting bolts.

I am content to leave well enough alone. I'm going back to the stock map today because for me it just worked as I expect. Its great that the new maps exist and hats off to the efforts to create them.

It could be like seats I suppose, some like Corbins, others Sargants and others Russels. Then some like the stock seat well enough.

I'll continue to try any new maps so long as I'm not persona non grata on the topic. At least I have a standard that I can use to compare them against.

[Vasco DG]

I can't see why you would be persona non grata?

Please though, saying that you *Know* when an engine is in tune is a bit worrysome. It doesn't work like that. As delivered ex-factory the throttle bodies are rarely balanced correctly. A quick and easy check is to just try moving the air bleeds. If both of them are open the tune is not correct and if they are wrong who knows what else may be? Also CO trim has an influence over the entire range. If it hasn't been adjusted this too may be a contributor to some of the issues you are experiencing.

If you are happier with the stock set up? That's fine. But assuming the tune is correct because the bike feels a certain way is a risky assumption.

Pete

[nikwax]

Question on the new map (7F59): is the throttle response more gradual? I think that's what I'm experiencing.

[canuguzzi]

Just kidding on the persona stuff.

When I bought the Norge I didn't pick it up for some time. I made it a point to go back to the service center and speak to the service writer, the manager and the tech. I specifically asked them to do more than the standard delivery, if there is such a thing. I remembered the key points you told me about and asked them to go through the Norge top to bottom to make sure it was as good as they could get it. I said that I didn't care if it meant not picking up right a way, I wanted it done right. I didn't watch them do the throttle bodies but I trust they did and from the way it runs can only conclude they were spot on from the factory (unlikely from what I've read) or that they went and took care of it as I requested.

I changed the oil well before the 600 miler and afterwards, took it in for the initial service. I spent more than 30 minutes specifying that all things that should be attended to were on the work order, that everyone was clear that the bike would be laying down miles. I went so far as to make sure all fasteners were checked and where build marker paint wasn't, I applied some to see if things got checked and if needed torqued to proper specs.

When I picked it up, I went over everything, test rode to make sure things seem well sorted.

I can't say I am a mechanic, I can only compare how the bike runs compared to others I have had and in that bunch there have been times they ran outstanding, good, bad and ugly. I trust the people that touch my Norge and it appears they do things the right way. Other than riding it and having it run well I can't say much more.

I am a picky sort of person and if things don't seem right I do make sure it gets right as far as I can tell.

As far as the maps go, I guess much of it is subjective so I can only compare what it came with and how it felt riding it and then the same with the new map. For all I know, maybe what I think is good isn't. I have no way of telling otherwise. I could go through it myself I suppose but if it then doesn't run as good as it did before (my perception) then I haven't done better.

I also don't have another Norge to compare mine to. Sooner or later I'll probably come across another Norge rider although it seems there are only about 6 of us on the continent. ;)

I'm closing on on 6250 miles so very soon it goes in for that service. A few weeks ago I had about 3000. I will be able to compare how it runs after that service to how it runs nows. Maybe then the map might make a bigger difference as some other have said they got. I can say with some absurdness that if it changes significantly I might not like that because I have absolutely no complaints now. Isn't that what the VW driver said until he drove a Rolls? ;D

[canuguzzi]

Just for kicks, I going to run a vibration meter app to check the stock map against the new one. Could all be in my head.

When I get some spare time, I'll check on those items you mentioned Pete. Since I don't know what I don't know, perhaps I'll learn something. Learned plenty here already.

Thanks

Got several days of rides planned so I'll be sparse around here for bit.

[Waltr]

  I for one did not imply anything you are experiencing is 'in your head'.  Vibration has never been a factor for me on my Norge. It was never a consideration, I did notice a  a significant reduction when I finally figured out how to use my Carbmate and the bike became smooth as glass, regardless of map. 

  The one important point I tried to make and in reading Pete's post's as well is the stock map has two O2 sensors to vary the fuel balance in closed loop that Beetle's map does without.  The O2 sensors are acting to influence throttle body balance and by doing so COULD be resulting in less vibes.  I can tell you on my bike I notice no difference in vibes in the maps.  Also when you switch between maps did you clear learned parameters in the Actors page of Guzzidiag? 

  I actually love the fact of being able to adjust my own valves and balance the throttle bodies and this bike was big plus because of it.  I do not look at it as a chore. But that is me, takes me back to my old airhead days when in my 20's.

[canuguzzi]

Ah, of course. I was saying it might be in my head.

I'll try experimenting with the CO as soon as I get a chance, might be a week though, have so much riding to do between now and then.

BTW, I forgot to answer question question. The risers actually reduced what amount of vibes there were. It might be due to the fact that there is a greater amount of distance to travel and vibes tend to become less as distance increases.

Okay, off to the tarmac. Tomorrow a day through the city which I try to avoid but Pacifica and Half Moon Bay are on the other side of the Golden Gate. I'll have a  :BEER: for all of you although it will be something else in the glass.

[canuguzzi]

Dang, had to get this out to others. Check the thread about helpng track things down. Vibe meters for Android.

I found it super interesting and telling as well.

[beetle]

Question on the new map (7F59): is the throttle response more gradual? I think that's what I'm experiencing.

Yes. Throttle correction ramps up from very little at idle to max at around 7% throttle, then tapers off per norm. If you don't like it, I can send you a map with 'normal' correction.

[nikwax]

Yes. Throttle correction ramps up from very little at idle to max at around 7% throttle, then tapers off per norm. If you don't like it, I can send you a map with 'normal' correction.

thanks, very generous of you. I'll let you know.

[nikwax]

Yes. Throttle correction ramps up from very little at idle to max at around 7% throttle, then tapers off per norm. If you don't like it, I can send you a map with 'normal' correction.

OK, yes, please do send me a map with normal correction.

[beetle]

I'm away from home for a few days. I'll flick it to you later this week.

[frans belgium]

Anybody else getting idle hangs?

I do, in the exact way that Pete describes.
Otoh, it does not bother me.

[nikwax]

I'm away from home for a few days. I'll flick it to you later this week.

Thank you sir!


I've reloaded the 6963 map, which I'm very fond of  ;-T

[nikwax]

I'm running 7e0f now, what should I be looking for vs 6963? All I can say so far is that the transition to closed throttle seems harsh.

[beetle]

The only difference is the fuel cut-off. If you find it harsh (and I wasn't expecting that), you may prefer the 6963.

Anybody else getting a harsh transition to a closed throttle?

[Vasco DG]

Not sure about this 'Harsh Transition' thing? All I can imagine is that you are experiencing greater engine braking due to the absence of fuel being delivered when the throttle is closed as the motor winds down to 2,750 RPM.

Essentially its a trade off. Either the fuel can be chopped completely and you get rid of the popping on the over-run caused by the engine 8 stroking and this will increase engine braking, or, you leave the fuel on and the engine doesn't brake so hard as the gas in the cylinder is still being heated by combustion but because the mixture won't ignite every cycle some unburnt mixture is passed into the pipe where it will be ignited by the hot exhaust gasses the next time the exhaust valve opens after combustion has occurred during the engines cycle. This is what causes the popping on deceleration.

I don't even notice a difference, at least not unless I'm looking for it, between 'Fuel off' and 'Fuel on' maps apart from the popping. More noticeable is the slight 'Lurch' at 2,750rpm as the fuel cuts back in but I actually enjoy feeling that happen.

Pete

[beetle]

Pete, the early Norge maps had a stepped cut-off from 3250 rpm at 7% throttle down to 2750 rpm at closed. The 7E0F has the same cut-off as the Griso and Stelvio maps (2750 rpm on a closed throttle)

[Vasco DG]

Interesting, didn't know that.

Pete

[nikwax]

I should have said "a bit harsh" or "relatively harsh"....didn't mean to sound so absolute about it.


I actually like the burbling. I'll go back and forth between 6963 and 7e0f and see which I prefer. And I'm really happy that you're willing to churn these maps out for us!


I've developed a bit of an oil leak and have to park the bike until it gets serviced later in the week (please not another oil pressure sensor) so I won't be testing again until at least next weekend.


Again, many many thinks for your work! Norge owners, try these maps, you won't be sorry.

[Waltr]

  I just reloaded the latest Norge map and when going back to Guzzidiag and resetting learned parameters  (had stock map in there for awhile) I clicked on the measurements screen and I noticed something a little strange.  I had run the stock map and set up to monitor lambda control so I had the MV1 and MV2.  While in the stock map everyling looked as if it worked properly and the voltage fluctuated as expected, all below 1 volt and between 900mv and 75mv but usually more toward the middle of those values.  Then I ran the bike and set CO.
  So when I went back to the measurements screen I saw that one of the MV screens was always reading a value and would increase in value when throttle was blipped and the settle down to read around 60mv.   Could this just indicate the one cylinder that has the idle air bleed open?  Or do I need to look at air leaks somewhere.