Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?

[Vasco DG]

To be honest I don't know if an aftermarket map will show up when you plug in PADS or Navi? I'll check. Generally I don't use the factory tooling much for Guzzis any more as Guzzidiag is so much simpler and more intuitive and won't brick yer ECU if it drops its bundle mid upload like the factory tools will!

As for whether it would affect your warranty? No idea, I imagine a lot of that would depend on your relationship with your shop. It would also depend on the quality of the map/fueling modifications. A lot of the aftermarket 'Solutions' take an aldehyde sloppy-rich map and make it richer. This isn't good and can cause damage.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

I have read all of this thread and I am tempted. My Norge seems to be behaving well, 7000 kms on a new 2012. Smooth throttle good idle. Only thing I have noticed is popping on decel. Milage seems to be a consistent 40 mpg. Don't know the top end, have once hit 195 km/h good enough for me. The one important question, to me, is warranty. I realize the original map can be saved and re loaded, but, can this be detected? If this were done, new map installed then erased and original reloaded, anyone know of a time stamp or other evidence of the owner messing with the ecu map? Has anyone had problems with Piaggio honoring warranty after some mapping? Not that I'm expecting to need warranty...

Just curious, if it's not broken then...?

Some very knowledgeable individual gave me advice to not be in a hurry to mess with things unless it needs it.

My new 2013 pops ever so slightly on decel but so do a lot of other things like Triumph sports cars, a few Alfas that have been in the family (recently and decades ago) so that isn't bad company unless it hurts the engine. Like yours, it runs smoothly, powers from idle up and is returning good fuel economy, all that on a new engine.

[Vasco DG]

As I've tried to explain many times the backfiring does absolutely no harm. All it is is the result of uncombusted fuel/air mix that has passed through the engine burning in the exhaust pipe. Yes, it can be addressed but it does no harm.

As for mapping changes? Not all factory maps are created equal and it should be remembered that the 'Map' itself contains many more parameters than just the fueling. Having said that some of the factory maps aren't really too bad, (The 2O2 lambda Stelvio map for instance is one of the better factory maps. Yes it can be improved on but its not awful. The Griso 8V maps in comparison are awful!). What to my understanding is the major problem is that all the factory maps are silly-rich and then depend on the lambda sensors to trim them back lean enough to meet emissions regs. Problem is once you're out of the closed loop area of the map you are still riding around on a sloppy-rich map. Hence the less than stellar fuel economy!

What Mark does, (And I'm sure he'll chime in when he has time-out from laying waste to Japan. Since he got there they've had a super-typhoon and another 6.8 mag. Earthquake ;D) is turn off the Lambdas so the map is open loop and then using a host of inputs including dyno runs and EGA but NOT those exclusively as well as feedback from end users will change and alter various parameters within the map with the aim of achieving a result that means the engine performs smoothly and efficiently with no dips or bumps in the power or torque curves.

As he has said repeatedly neither he nor I are interested in chasing more outright power. The aim is 'Streetable' for want of a better word, performance and decent economy. One of the great myths propagated endlessly is that all the bikes are mapped up very lean to 'Meet Emissions Standards'. While when the lambda/s are on and the ECU is trimming the fueling in closed loop then yes, there will be areas where the mix will be super-lean and its this that makes for the Herky-jerky ride at low speed, small throttle openings, especially with bikes like G8's that aren't tuned right. (Also the Grisos because of their different length header pipes need quite different fuel maps for each cylinder. The delta fueling on the factory maps are a complete clusterf@ck.). Once out of the CL area though most, if not all, of the factory maps go rich, rich, rich. ADDING fuel is the last thing you generally want to do but with the majority of aftermarket map-modifier products this is exactly what they do.

The most work that has been done by Mark has been for the G8 and he has got a map built for this bike with a Mistral Hi-Pipe without dB killer, (The same set up used on both his and my bike.) that is outstanding! (the warm up map still isn't perfect but once warm its tremendous!) and a further 'Generic' map for an aftermarket can with cat-con and dB killer that is similarly outstanding. Other maps are being tweaked and developed as time and circumstance allow and are 'Works in progress'. The great thing is that with access to Guzzidiag the swapping of maps is no longer the province of a *Special* few and map sharing is becoming commonplace and CHEAP, something dear to all Guzzisti hearts! ;D

Anyway, enough banging on from me on a Sunday morning. Now the frost has melted and its above zero I might tog up and take the Griso for a flog around the houses! Thank heavens for heated gear and a 600Watt alternator! :D

Pete

[beetle]

As Pete says, popping on decel is harmless. If you're otherwise happy, there's no need to change.

As for warranty, if you have a good relationship with your dealer they may not be concerned. If you are really paranoid about such things you can reflash the original map. If you saved the text file the reader creates when you backed up your factory map, you can reflash the original date and name of the engineer. How are they going to know?

[Far star]

   I think I learned more about mapping in that post than all the other stuff combined, Pete. Thanks for that info. I guess I am pretty gun-shy about warranty stuff after a battle with Volvo Penta over two DPH outdrives that grenaded...I'm on my 3rd one at $14,000.00 each. Warranty has been a rather important detail. Anyway, I bought a diagnostic kit from Todd before I actually had the bike. ( very sad news about him, big loss for everyone) I also have guzzidiag, but not the correct cables. I have read a lot about mapping and truly expected my Norge to behave rather badly, with erratic idle, jerky throttle, poor gas mileage and backfiring. I too was under the mistaken impression that Guzzi purposely leaned the crap out of the US bound bikes to meet California's uber strict laws. I even called Piaggio in New York to ask them if they mapped Canadian bound bikes differently. Guess how much info I got on that. I was going to have mapping done at MI Seattle 2 days after I bought the Norge, but the bike ran fine. So far the only thing that happens is popping on decel. Haven't done a canisterectomy either. So, I like the idea of a better map for street, however, I wonder if I should wait until I have different pipes. I'd like a bit more sound from the Norge, and changing that would, from what I can tell, require a different fuel map. The packages that GuzziTech were offering were enticing, exhaust, air and mapping, but...who knows now. At any rate, as Canguzzi asks, why fix it if it ain't broke. I think I need to figure out the right pipes and any other mods like air box changes then do mapping...

[Vasco DG]

I think you may be confusing your Todd's. No worries, I'm sure the one past caring not only wouldn't care but would have a chuckle.

As for the whole issue of re-mapping? There is a lot to be gained. There are also a lot of different options and opinions as to what is 'Good' or 'Right'. At the end of the day one pays ones money and takes ones choice but the laws of physics reign supreme.

If you are happy though? Stick with it! Hard experience and a lot of cash has taught me that even if it is rolled in glitter a turd is still a turd and you can't polish it. The only way to fix it is to re-design and rebuild the turd. ;D

Pete
 

[Far star]

Well, I am embarrassed. I did indeed have the 2 Todd's confused, some basic research revealed my error. Apologies to anyone offended, my bad for making snap assumptions.

[nikwax]

I just got around to messing with the CO setting. I was experiencing hard starts when the motor was cold and rough idle, and guessed that it might be running too rich. Which turned out to be incorrect. I went to -5 on the CO adjustment and could hardly keep it running, so back to zero, then +5. Much better so far.

[Waltr]

Went to +15 on the co trim and cold start and hot and cold idle are perfect. I know this is not a scientific test but overall sound and running has been perfect even at part throttle operation.

[beetle]

Went to +15 on the co trim and cold start and hot and cold idle are perfect. I know this is not a scientific test but overall sound and running has been perfect even at part throttle operation.

What's your economy like?

[nikwax]

Could someone explain what all changing the CO does? I'm clear that it impacts warm idle. Does it have across the board impact as well? Cold start/idle? Running mixture?


And, am I after "lean best idle" or something akin to "1/4 turn richer than lean best idle" from carburetor days?

[beetle]

Could someone explain what all changing the CO does? I'm clear that it impacts warm idle. Does it have across the board impact as well? Cold start/idle? Running mixture?


And, am I after "lean best idle" or something akin to "1/4 turn richer than lean best idle" from carburetor days?

It's akin to adjusting the carbon monoxide level without using a gas analyzer. Well, you could use an analyzer. :D

With the 5AM ECU, it affects everything - Cold start, running idle, and yes, it does affect the entire rev range. However, it's effects are non-linear and it has the greatest effect at low revs.

Lean best idle is pretty much what your are looking for.

[Waltr]

After setting CO trim to plus 15 fuel economy dropped 2-5mpg.  It seems as if roll on is sluggish also.  Dropping fuel back to plus 2  the engine sounds and runs great when rolled on, has a very addictive baawaaa when it hits 5k.  Did not do this when richer. 

[canuguzzi]

After setting CO trim to plus 15 fuel economy dropped 2-5mpg.  It seems as if roll on is sluggish also.  Dropping fuel back to plus 2  the engine sounds and runs great when rolled on, has a very addictive baawaaa when it hits 5k.  Did not do this when richer. 

The "baawaaa" reminds me of what Kawasaki 2 stroke triples used to do when the throttle was wacked full throttle from less than half. Little did we now it was actually a slight hesitation before the power came on clean. Sounded terrific though.

[nikwax]

Any idea what controls idle speed during warm up? My Norge runs great warmed up, but cold starting is a chore and it barely idles during warmup. Is this a mapping function, or is there an external device/control for idle speed?

[hammick]

I would love to try the map.  PM sent.  Thanks

[Vasco DG]

Any idea what controls idle speed during warm up? My Norge runs great warmed up, but cold starting is a chore and it barely idles during warmup. Is this a mapping function, or is there an external device/control for idle speed?

Idle is controlled by the steep per motor. This is essentially an electronically controlled air valve. The ECU reads what the engine speed is, if it tries to drop below 1200 RPM it will open the stepper to add more air and lean the mixture so engine speed increases, if it tries to rise above 1200 it will cut air off to lower the engine speed. Also when cold there is a cold start mat that enriches the mixture on a sliding scale for two minutes.

If your bike isn't idling when cold check that only one of the air bleeds is open. Both bleeds open confuses the stepper. Having said that some 8V Norges are simply very cold blooded.

Pete

[beetle]

niwax, what version are you running? I did an update yesterday for Waltr who's Norge seems very cold-blooded. I've just flicked it to Pete.

[nikwax]

niwax, what version are you running? I did an update yesterday for Waltr who's Norge seems very cold-blooded. I've just flicked it to Pete.

Does "WLoad1039T" tell us anything? The checksum is 0XF116. It was sent to me about two months ago.


I've upped my CO to +5 from 0, I'm thinking I may have gone too rich.

[beetle]

F116 is the very first iteration. There's been two since. PM me your email and I'll flick it to you.

[John in PA]

Have you guys developed improved maps for the 2-valve Norge also?  I have an '07 that I wouldn't mind improving performance and/or economy on.  I've ordered a set of cables from LonElec.

[Stormtruck2]

Have you guys developed improved maps for the 2-valve Norge also?  I have an '07 that I wouldn't mind improving performance and/or economy on.  I've ordered a set of cables from LonElec.

The map I got from Beetle really improved my 07 Norge.  I'm sure he will have one for you. The cables from LonLec work very well. The whole system is great.  ;-T

[beetle]

John, PM me your email address. I'll send you the 2V Norge map.

[Vasco DG]

Hammic, new map, hot and toasty, fresh out of the oven! Just emailed. Let Me and Mark have feedback please.

Pete

[Waltr]

I thought I would post here also.  Received the mew map today and installed it.  Had only a brief chance to ride before work.  One thing I noticed right off the bat was more power immediately off idle.  Just letting the clutch out even without adding throttle the bike just wants to go.  The original map was much improved in the lean lurching on and off throttle while moving slow and this map is even better.  This latest map likes to be run above 3K, where the first map was content to shift early.  This feels more 'natural' for this bike.  Can't wait to put a few miles on with this latest map.  I feel for a given speed that throttle opening is less now and that should correlate to improved fuel mileage.
Walt

[Vasco DG]

I'd just like to say that using the term 'More Power' is probably misleading. While there may at certain points in the map be a result of greater power and torque the main issue that Mark's maps are aimed at is greater 'Drive/Rideability' and enjoyment.

Its very easy to take a machine that is poorly tuned or mapped and simply get it running well and the difference can make one believe that its suddenly much more 'Powerful'.

Seldom is this the case.

What can be achieved is the removal of the compromises built in to cheaply meet emissions regulations that will impact on performance. Nobody apart from morons wants to deliberately waste resources or produce filth. The problem faced is that legislation is a 'Broad Brush' and in that respect anything that has to be applied *Equally* will always result in compromises. With something like internal combustion engines the legislation is bound to favour the *Majority*, ie! conventional  multi-cylinder, single or double overhead cam motors with side draft or semi down draft breathing configurations with an eye towards economy rather than performance.

Sure you *Can* chase outright power with an engine but any production engine is going to be engineered conservatively. This is particularly true of an engine like the Guzzi 8V which uses a variety of remarkably *Unconventional* strategies to do what it does. To really extract more outright power though you will have to re-cam and change a host of other aspects of the motor and in doing so you will rob it of its strong points as a 'Road' motor rather than a 'Race' one.

If Mark's latest map *feels* more powerful it may well be, slightly, but most of that perception will be due to the fact that the motor is no longer fighting the laws of physics and chemistry and can perform as it should. The irony is that in doing so it will contravene various emissions regs designed with a broad brush but will actually use less precious fossil fuel and in the long term produce less filth than one 'Tuned Clean' by artifice!

At the end of the day trying his solutions will cost you nothing more than a set if cables, a software download and the encouragement to donate to first of all Paul and Beard who developed the brilliant software and to Mark to help cover his costs. I would also encourage people who are using maps supplied and developed by others like Dave, (Molly here.) to fling them a quid too. None of these people ask for payment or suggest any *Obligation*. To me though it just seems like the right thing to do.

Pete

[nikwax]

PM sent, thanks! I'll load it up this weekend if available.

[canuguzzi]

PM sent. Got my cables from the highly recommended source, fast delivery and hassle free transaction.

I'm finally headed out on my delayed trip (about 2600 miles) and I can give it a good try.

[nikwax]

Installed the new map yesterday and went for both solo and two up rides over a variety of terrain. Start up was much easier with hot or cold motor. It is hard to quantify the overall difference between the new map and the gen 1, my wife and I both agreed that is feels more refined. I like it very much. Thanks again for your work on this!

[Waltr]

A couple more short stints with the new map. What I described as power has more to do with how immediate the throttle response is just off idle.  I am not referring to a lurching or jerky throttle response but more that a feeling that even at in town slow speeds the throttle response is immediate, like as if there is zero hesitation.  Previous map had a soft feel to it ridden in the same manner.  If I could describe it in other terms it is as if the bike had a well tuned CV carb with accelerator pump.