Author Topic: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?  (Read 74120 times)

Offline Waltr

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #180 on: October 14, 2014, 03:21:11 PM »
  I just reloaded the latest Norge map and when going back to Guzzidiag and resetting learned parameters  (had stock map in there for awhile) I clicked on the measurements screen and I noticed something a little strange.  I had run the stock map and set up to monitor lambda control so I had the MV1 and MV2.  While in the stock map everyling looked as if it worked properly and the voltage fluctuated as expected, all below 1 volt and between 900mv and 75mv but usually more toward the middle of those values.  So after loading the open loop map I ran the bike and set CO.
  So when I went back to the measurements screen I saw that one of the MV screens was always reading a value and would increase in value when throttle was blipped and the settle down to read around 60mv. When throttle opened the value would be 400 - 600mv.    Could this just indicate the one cylinder that has the idle air bleed open?  Or do I need to look at air leaks somewhere.

 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 03:32:46 PM by Waltr »
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beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #181 on: October 14, 2014, 04:05:03 PM »
With an 'open loop' map, ie lambda off, the ECU ignores input from the O2 sensors. It doesn't know what the actual lambda value is.  The readings you see now are an indication of your CO trim setting, not the real state of the exhaust.

Ignore, and ride!

Offline Waltr

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #182 on: October 14, 2014, 04:15:33 PM »
I only get a mv reading on one cylinder and since the O2 senssor is reading O2 I am guessing that is the side with the air bleed open.  The other side read 0 mv.  And like I indicated the closed loop map reading was normal up and down and within normal values so I know th O2 sensors are working.

I guess I am looking to see if this is normal or do I have a vacuum leak on one cylinder.
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2012 Norge

beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #183 on: October 14, 2014, 06:53:00 PM »
The ECU is NOT reporting O2. This function is disabled with this map. What you are seeing is ECU reporting CO trim, nothing else. It is nothing to worry about.

It's normal. There's no problem. Stop worrying. Ride.  :D

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #183 on: October 14, 2014, 06:53:00 PM »

Offline Waltr

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #184 on: October 14, 2014, 09:21:36 PM »
  I had a boss, my sales manager,  when I sold automotive test equipment that always said to me that understanding is the Booby Prize in life.  Never seemed to stop me from wanting to know though.
  Thanks for your reply. 
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Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #185 on: October 19, 2014, 12:24:32 AM »
Thanks for the new map Beetle, Pete.
Bike: 2012 Norge kms: 22795 Location: NSW OZ.
Summary: Very HAPPY!  :bow
Disclaimer - I am not a professional mechanic, have 30+ years experience in mechanical work on my own cars/mobikes/pushbikes/wife  :winer
All comments. claims and etc are IMHO and directed at my vehicles.
To continue, Why am I happy: Smooth pull from idle, smooth pull 2000-4000, and once past 4500 in 4th - speedo racing past numbers quicker than tacho climbing thru revs.
... and this was stock after a tuneup... what was missing was the defining word 'STRONG' pull from 2000-4000 rpm.
yes... the above was true in stock form, but there were moments in the rev range that had me commenting - "this could be better"
In stock my comments are: on a light throttle just past idle the pull would soften i.e the engine would slow and require added throttle to keep revs climbing - this behavior would continue until revs reached 4000 or more and then the revs would climb on a light throttle opening - this made for slower speed buildup at light throttle openings and much twisting of the right wrist between 2000-3500 rpm away from traffic lights on my daily commute.
OTOH give her a bit of throttle from first and second - change up at 4500 or more and only the drives flogging their cars (ALOT of these types in the Hunter Valley, NSW) would keep up.
What this resulted in was sedate progress if upshifting between 3000 and 4000 revs in 3rd, 4th and 5th.
Beetle - Pete - this has been fixed with the map you sent me.
Now right from idle a light throttle will keep revs climbing in the lower gears and short shifting between 3000 and 4000 makes for much more rapid progress -
the desired outcome for improved driveability is successful ...  well done.

Detail:
I began preparation for the new map by hooking the bike up to  Guzzidiag: to find CO reading was at 34 ... this surprised me as a week earlier I had done a tune-up incl TBS synch and Guzzidiag TPS reset with CO2 set at +2 (.... obliviously I had not done this correctly.) So hooked up the Morgan Carbtune again and found RHS at 3500 rpm was fractionally higher - reset this, reset CO2 to 0, clicked Finish, reset TPS, tweaked air bleed on RHS for idle ( thanks again guys for all the information on how to do these tasks on this forum)
Wen completed and happy bike was 'set-up' (rechecked TPS and CO2) I allowed it to cool then downloaded the current map to my PC (was dated July 2011 - guessing it was factory)
Uploaded new map.
Was getting dark by this time so did not fire bike up (if I was not happy when fired up this would have kept me awake all night - thinking the worst case thoughts!)
Next morning got me and missus ready for a ride - cranked bike and nothing but cranking - would not start ... oh dear - look at wife who has a quizzical expression and a hand out with thumbs down  ... no ride??? It will be fine I say - all good just a little cranky (I often speak before I think)
Shut her down (the bike ;D) stand pensively for a minute or five lightly holding on to her - what have I missed connecting back up?
Lets have a listen to the cranking to confirm there is pressure and iginition happening so ignition on - press the starter and BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA
GRIN GRIN GRIN thumbs up to SWMBO, pull bike out of park and pointed down the driveway.
On the original map wheeling bike up driveway required balancing throttle and clutch slip for walking progress please - don't stall ... have done a few time.
Today on new map - at idle - no throttle - just gentle clutch slip and awaaay we go - nice!
Get ourselves sorted - get to the give way sign - wait for a break in the traffic - clutch out and light throttle 3500 in first - change - 3000 in second and no 'limp' feeling between 2000 and 3000 - just strong constant pull - Norge 2 Rider " you can change up to 3rd Sir" Rider 2 Norge " its only 3300 rpm, I will wait for more revs - don't want to lug you" Norge 2 Rider " lug me hahaha! - go on change up!" 3200 in 3rd and closing the gap to car in front - 4th at 3000 and settle for awhile - tweak throttle a little later and awaaay we go ... am ENJOYING this.
Did 113 kms round trip around our beautiful Hunter Valley 70kmph in 4th soaking in the lush scenery - 125 in 5th committing Norge to sweeper .. all good.
The last 34 kms was a 110kmph baritone rumble cruise in 6th at 4000 - up gentle climbs Norge hold her revs and speed - a little tweak of the wrist and we quickly overtake traffic in left lane.
Windy conditions cause Norge to gently 'weave' from hips up - tyre line does not change-arrow straight tyres on concrete - mavbe topbox causing this? tyre pressures correct as was checked day earlier.
Feel of the bike: 2000-4000 rpm engine rumble more pronounced - original map engine rumble 'softer' - since the pull is stronger I am guessing the combustion process is producing more power per pulse than before? more effective fuel/air mixture per combustion more pulse.
To the ear this sounds slightly 'off-beat' at these revs compared to original .... my tuning not perfect? Nature of the beast?  ???
Will ride this map for the next week in my commute and do a follow up report.
Give me a week or so to establish 'trust' in my Norge with the new map and will be 'making a donation' with a smile.




Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2014, 05:38:12 AM »
Hi All ... day 2 on new Norge map, day 1 of using bike in traffic.
Great! ... will continue to use this map for remainder of week.
Am experiencing cold start problems - many jabs at starter and some tweaking of the throttle required to keep cold idle.
CO2 at 0 ... should I play with CO2 settings? With the Lambda sensors disconnected would this make any difference to cold start?
Bike refuses to fire for about 5 or 6 attempts, once firing can keep it going with throttle at about 1800 rpm. Once warm starts easily.

Small price to pay for benefits available ...

Is there anyone in or close to the Hunter Valley NSW OZ who I can take the bike to for a checkup and second opinion?
Please do not point me to any Dealers ... have had many experiences of poor workmanship on my bikes at dealers workshops and on one occasion
failure of a front tyre at close to 100kmph due to damage during mounting the tyre on the rim.   
If there are any Guzzi 'specialists' in the Hunter I would appreciate hearing from them.

Vasco DG

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #187 on: October 20, 2014, 06:07:30 AM »
I've heard others comment that starting can be an issue with the Norge map from cold. I've not yet experienced anything *Terrible* but sometimes one bike I loaded the map to needed the throttle to be held slightly open for 30 seconds or so. Might be initial warm-up map related methinks but this is one area where individual bikes seem to differ, perhaps through sensor input differences, I don't know?? I commented to Mark on one map for the Griso a while back that warm up seemed a bit off and I had to be a bit careful about just starting and pulling away immediately. He seemed perplexed. I think the adjective 'Dickhead' might of been used? ;D dunno really.....

Thing to remember is that for this stuff to be addressed Mark needs feedback so keep it coming. I know from many years of working with the same basic sensors though that their inputs can vary greatly. The way that the more sophisticated ECU's interpret the signals will affect more than one parameter or table within the map. I don't have the required skills to interpret and deal with that but it's something that both Mark and I are aware of which is why map development is a constant, on-going thing. There is a lot that isn't known so caution is the watchword. Heaven only knows how many iterations of the 8V Griso map he's up to now?

beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #188 on: October 20, 2014, 02:19:44 PM »
Bib, try setting CO trim to +10. If cold starting improves, tweak the CO up or down as necessary.

Offline nikwax

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #189 on: October 20, 2014, 06:18:19 PM »
Just had the 25k mile service performed. Bike starts and runs great. Cold starts right up. Happy happy.
2014 Ducati Multistrada GT
2011 Norge GT 8V "Otto Valvole" (gone after 32k miles)
2001 BMW R1150 GS (gone after 100,000 miles)

dddd

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #190 on: October 22, 2014, 02:00:48 AM »
Hi All ... day 2 on new Norge map, day 1 of using bike in traffic.
Great! ... will continue to use this map for remainder of week.
Am experiencing cold start problems - many jabs at starter and some tweaking of the throttle required to keep cold idle.
CO2 at 0 ... should I play with CO2 settings? With the Lambda sensors disconnected would this make any difference to cold start?
Bike refuses to fire for about 5 or 6 attempts, once firing can keep it going with throttle at about 1800 rpm. Once warm starts easily.

Small price to pay for benefits available ...

Is there anyone in or close to the Hunter Valley NSW OZ who I can take the bike to for a checkup and second opinion?
Please do not point me to any Dealers ... have had many experiences of poor workmanship on my bikes at dealers workshops and on one occasion
failure of a front tyre at close to 100kmph due to damage during mounting the tyre on the rim.   
If there are any Guzzi 'specialists' in the Hunter I would appreciate hearing from them.


The hard starting you describe is exactly what I was experiencing with prior maps, however with Marks latest map and the CO set at 2 it is starting first go from cold. The only slight problem I have now is that it wants to idle a bit low (1100-1000 rpm) but other than that I find this latest map superb and the best so far (for me at least) I feel the bike is smoother and more responsive everywhere now and for a bonus its also slightly better on fuel as well.
A bloody miracule if you ask me, well done

Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #191 on: October 22, 2014, 06:22:36 AM »
Day 3 on new map:
End of day 2 I connected Guzzidiag and checked TPS(4.6) and reset the "Learned Parameters"(neglected to do this on map install)
Day 3 was careful on cold start, caught engine with throttle as soon as it fired on the second jab, engine firing uneven, a little erratic, manual idle control for about 20 seconds then engine firing began to even out so allowed throttle back to stop, bike idled on its own - noticed after about a minute from first start the idle settled down to normal.
Bike enjoyable in traffic, find shifting between 3800 and 4000 fast enough to keep away from 90% of the cages.
On the original map the engine would pull steadily but without urgency until 4000+ then would feel more willing to rev and answer throttle input with strong pull,
from idle to 4000 engine feel was 'soft'.
With new 'Beetle Juice' map idle to 4000 engine feels more 'vibey' without discomfort (TBSynch done) and STRONG.
Mechanical noise slightly less with beetlejuice, am guessing the TBS helped there?
I love the decel pop ... also love the http://soundbible.com/1282-Lion-Roar.html going up the gears.

will adjust CO2 to +10 or around there soonish and report back... the cold start issue is NOT a deal breaker with beetlejuice, just more character! ;-T

Offline MLR

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #192 on: October 22, 2014, 08:33:18 PM »
I went up to a CO trim of +14 to get my norge to start and idle well when cold this summer & fall. The bike has been running great but now that the mornings have been getting colder (40F) I've found it very difficult to start even giving it a little throttle. Once running it is fine & starts right up with a warm engine but I've decided to go back to the stock map for the cooler weather.

Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #193 on: October 28, 2014, 05:52:51 AM »
Hi All ... first day completed with CO2 now at +16
Began CO2 at +10 and then found +15 was a little smoother so made it +16 as max -will come down from here.
Starts much easier, cold idle around 1800rpm, no need to nurse throttle at start up for more than 5 seconds.
Engine seems quieter (?) possibly sounds a little on the rich mixture side of the equation.
Warm idle revs a little lower than before but stable.

A little fun today -- in 5th at 4000 (95kays) then opened throttle a bit (not WOT) and in the length of 2 semi's was looking at 130+ ...
what I have missing with my other bikes ... burble along at 70kays in smooth baritone then roar at 130 in a rush of acceleration building.
Past bikes had the 'RUSH' in spades but never the high gear smooth burble at low speed, the ST had the purr at 70 and the rush up higher.

My impression is the engine is not quite as smooth below 4000 as on original map - will hook up Carbtune again to double check my last adjustment.
Could just be the more urgent feel of the engine. Will ride this for at least 4 weeks before passing any confident judgement.

Offline Waltr

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #194 on: October 28, 2014, 09:26:49 AM »
    Some observations and questions of the the 7F59 map with the altered fuel cut off and redline at 8500.  The 6963 map seems to idle better/stronger.  It just seems to settle into idle in stop and go better than 7F59.  I do not know why that is it just seems to hold a stronger idle.  The stock map is criticized for high idle  but on my bike that idle will settle down after a brief moment and the 6963 seems to do the same.
  The 7F59 map does seem stronger in the mid range and the hole at 4000-4700 that the dyno noticed (I never noticed it) could be gone but the bike is just not as smooth at lower speeds and stop and go.  Smooth may not be the right word but what I believe is happening is the more rapid fuel cut off may be creating a much larger difference between on throttle and off throttle and I am trying to ride around that with my wrist.  If the 6963 is just too good and with this map in and CO set to about 16 every time I pulled up to a light I felt that this is the way this bike sound run/sound at idle.   Why the 7F59 does not give me that same feedback I do not know.    Is would be great to have the stronger mid range, 8,500 redline and better/stronger idle and on/off throttle performance of 6963.
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beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #195 on: October 28, 2014, 02:56:01 PM »
Well, I could simply change the max rpm of the 6963 and leave everything else the same?

Offline Waltr

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #196 on: October 28, 2014, 03:48:11 PM »
Is there any difference besides the extended RPM and fuel cutoff.  If so an extended rpm 6963 would be great.  I thought the 7F59 was an attempt to fill in the depression in power at 4,000-4,700 rpm and at least by seat of pants I can verify that.  But given a choice the 6963 is better overall.  Was anything else modified on the 7F59 beside fuel cutoff and rev limit rpm?
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Offline nikwax

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #197 on: October 28, 2014, 04:30:17 PM »
Question on 7E0F (which I'm running now) vs. 6963 (previous): is the situation with the revs not returning to idle in a timely manner on off throttle (there has to be a better way to express that) down to mapping or is it some other part of the ECU? I'm finding this an intermittent issue with 7E0F.


2014 Ducati Multistrada GT
2011 Norge GT 8V "Otto Valvole" (gone after 32k miles)
2001 BMW R1150 GS (gone after 100,000 miles)

dddd

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #198 on: October 28, 2014, 07:57:43 PM »
Question on 7E0F (which I'm running now) vs. 6963 (previous): is the situation with the revs not returning to idle in a timely manner on off throttle (there has to be a better way to express that) down to mapping or is it some other part of the ECU? I'm finding this an intermittent issue with 7E0F.




Mine does the 2000 rpm idle thing regardless of what map is in it (including the stock map)

dddd

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #199 on: October 28, 2014, 08:06:24 PM »
Mark

Other than the hanging high idle issue, the only problem I have with mine is it wanting to idle a bit low 1000 - 1100 rpm (both warmed up and cold) , can I just raise my "target idle" speed a bit in the guzzi diag programe   ?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:07:26 PM by dddd »

beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #200 on: October 29, 2014, 12:25:15 AM »
Waltr - the newer maps only had changes to the fuel-cutoff and max rpm. Everything else is the same.

nikwax - this seems to affect some bikes and not others. I believe it to be a a function of the stepper motor not driving 100% correctly. It affects bikes with and without my map, so I cannot say for sure why it happens.

dddd - Target idle is a function of the map. It's based on engine temp. I will send you a map with a modified idle table.

I have built a new map based on the 6963 with only the max rpm changed. I will send it out shortly.

Vasco DG

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #201 on: October 29, 2014, 12:46:04 AM »
I didn't realize you'd cracked the target idle issue. Good-O.

Pete

Offline Waltr

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #202 on: October 29, 2014, 09:21:26 AM »
  

 Just as a note 6963 for me has always had what some describe here as a hang in idle. The stock closed loop map acts the same way.   It never bothered me in fact it seemed to be beneficial in stop and go traffic that it holds a slightly higher idle for a short time before settling down. It never did the 2,000 rpm idle though. Idle RPM on 6963has also been a little higher centered around 1150 rpm compared to the later map. It could be that the later map would benefit from a slightly higher idle in fact I know it could.    My version of the later map even has a lower cold start idle rpm vs 6963.  Id you do a later map with higher target idle for dddd I would like to try that along with the 6963 with 8500 rpm redline.  
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:06:34 PM by Waltr »
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beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #203 on: October 29, 2014, 05:10:31 PM »
I did two for dddd, one based on the modified 6963, and one from the 7F59, which he preferred. I'll send you the one based on the 6963.

Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #204 on: October 30, 2014, 08:08:23 PM »
Hi all ... did my first full tank refill last night and had to double check my numbers ... 310 kms for 18.8litres = 16.5kmpl or 6litres/100kms (39 mpg)
This is in my daily commute - EXCELLENT. Now on the original map I has less 'Thrust' between 2000 and 4000rpm, I has less enjoyment in my commute and I averaged 275 kms per refill --- now that is having your cake with icing! So fuel economy is better - no change to riding style other than going a little faster away from lights.
The old map was a spider's web strand smoother at commute revs (3000-4500) this could be tune - will check this ... anyone reading this please advise on following: When bike was smoother on old map my TBS was a little 'out' at 3000rpm ... RHS was about a 10mm higher than LHS.
Now with TBS set about equal on both sides I am tempted to tweak the RHS back to a little higher than LHS and feel the difference ... any thoughts?

Not really interested in 5000+rpm smoothness as I hardly spend much time there. Shocked faces all round??? sorry- really enjoy my riding close to set speed limits, not very confident in my multi-tasking abilities at 130kmph down two lanes looking out for fee-collectors and not seeing that dog about to meet the 'gyroscope' keeping me upright.

beetle

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #205 on: October 30, 2014, 08:48:33 PM »
What's the balance like at 4000 rpm? If not quite balanced, redo the balance at 4000 instead of 3000.

Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2014, 03:59:19 AM »
Found the time to do a TBS and balance at 4000, was a smidgen out at 4000, small adjust needed .... also reset the CO2 down from 16 to 12 (idle slows below 10 and above 17)
Results from these adjustments are a slight improvement of smoothness at 3500 -5000rpm, starting is more immediate now, (CO2 adjust) does not require babysitting the throttle to get idle happening, so all good all around.
I kinda like the engine idling at 1500 rpm when slowing down ... if I synch it right my downchanges are smoother with little effort.
once at walking pace the idle goes down to 1100 - 1200.
The popping on decel has stopped except on rare occassions, once again I liked that and do miss it a bit.
My second tank refill confirms I am getting 300 kms from 18 litres or between 38 and 39 mpg in my commute.
Am not going back to the original map folks - what for???
cheers

Vasco DG

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #207 on: November 10, 2014, 04:13:33 AM »
On the 'Hanging idle' issue Paul posted over on the Ghetto that he'd found it was linked to poor operation of the clutch switch. I'm not exactly sure I understood his explanation but have a squizz for yourself and see if it makes sense to you. I haven't had time to scratch meself today, never mind go and look at my clutch switch!

Pete

Offline bib

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #208 on: December 03, 2014, 01:07:12 AM »
Hi ... now been over a month with new map ... now that I am 'used to' the new operation of the bike my thoughts are:
Great enjoyment in engine below 4000 rpm
Not quite as smooth from 3000 to 5000 rpm as original (TBS set at 4000 with Morgan Carbtune)
Much improved fuel consumption.
Between 3000 and 4500 rpm:
The original map gave the engine an 'elastic' feel that was very relaxed.
The new map gives the engine an 'urgent' feel more like a big bore non balance shaft inline 4(think Waltr said this before)
the trade-off is worthwhile ... far better throttle response with new map.

None of the CO2 changes made any difference to this 'feel' with new map.
The TBS fine tune at 4000 has not altered this 'feel' with new map.

I am guessing the original map had a trick up its sleeve with regards to this relaxed feel ... ???
Possibly with lambda inputs that are now disconnected ???

Am not playing with tune as am happy with it  :bow
cheers

Offline frans belgium

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Re: Anyone want to try our 8V Norge map?
« Reply #209 on: December 03, 2014, 02:27:10 AM »
Hi ... now been over a month with new map ... now that I am 'used to' the new operation of the bike my thoughts are:
Great enjoyment in engine below 4000 rpm
Not quite as smooth from 3000 to 5000 rpm as original (TBS set at 4000 with Morgan Carbtune)
Much improved fuel consumption.
Between 3000 and 4500 rpm:
The original map gave the engine an 'elastic' feel that was very relaxed.
The new map gives the engine an 'urgent' feel
My feelings exactly. After months of riding with the new map:
The far better rideability (is that English?) especially below 4000 rpm make the whole thing worth while for me.
Smoothness, throttle respons, no more clutch use in slow turns or at roundabouts.
The 'hanging' of the idle does not bother me, the engine running 'rougher' between 3 and 5 k rpm does a bit.  And the engine struggles to get into the high rpm.  
So mixed feelings, but at this moment, I would not want to go back to the original map.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 01:25:44 AM by frans belgium »
Owned and sold: V65, Nevada, 2xCali, Breva 1100, Norge 8V, Breva 1100 with Squire sidecar
Currently own: V85 TT

 

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