Roller tappet conversion.

[Vasco DG]

Well my kit arrived. This is the 'C' kit for early A5 motors. It requires the removal of the heads to shim the valve springs which is a bore. Its also a sort of weird hybrid as it contains rocker carriers/camboxes that are machined so you can use the early rocker covers which is a bore. I would of though it would of been a lot simpler to just replace the rocker carriers and covers to keep parts selection easy.

New cambox.



The 'Pads' that go into the rockers to cope with their radial movement.



They fit on the roller tappets like so.



Scrappy pic of the rollers, sorry, I'm not going to take the cambox apart, you need a special tool to reassemble it, I don't have one yet.



Pete

[Silver Goose]

Pete, thanks for the photos. By the way is the conversion an power of reliabilty upgrade? While I have not a problem, so far, with my 2009 stelvio. I am always interested in MG's inprovements.

Haven't talked for sometime hope everyone is fine.

Best regards

[Vasco DG]

Reliability. In some markets and conditions the flT tappets are prone to failure, especially if the bike isn't serviced properly. Hopefully the roller tappet conversion will prevent this..

Pete

[pauldaytona]

some more pics, the black is not standard but DLC coating, that a friend did.

[Vasco DG]

Nice pics but why the DLC? Seems a bit redundant on a hydrodynamic bearing.....

I can see the logic on the rocker supports.

Pete

[pauldaytona]

I won't show you the pictures of his old parts. Not once but twice. So he wanted to take any precoution possible. But problem was mainly  the rocker supports. I had that too, had to replace one rocker as result. The rocker moves a few degrees so oil has not much chance to get in between, and pressure is allways on the cap.

[Vasco DG]

Yeah, and because the rocker doesn't spin the oil can't wedge so it just depends on 'Slipperiness' which is always going to be a bit 'How's yer father'.

Pete

[Waterbottle]

Nice photos and an interesting topic guys,
Forgive me if I've missed a previous discussion on this but can I ask a couple of questions--
When did they start fitting these Roller Tappets to new bikes ?
I have a 2009 model, is there a chance my steed was done at the factory ?
I need to check my Vv clearances soon so I should be able to see the cam and followers then right ?
If not, where do I go to order this kit when needed, or is prevention better than the cure of a failure
Cheers Ron

[pauldaytona]

Nice photos and an interesting topic guys,
Forgive me if I've missed a previous discussion on this but can I ask a couple of questions--
When did they start fitting these Roller Tappets to new bikes ?
I have a 2009 model, is there a chance my steed was done at the factory ?
I need to check my Vv clearances soon so I should be able to see the cam and followers then right ?
If not, where do I go to order this kit when needed, or is prevention better than the cure of a failure
Cheers Ron

yes you missed it, they are from production 5-2012. If you need a kit, talk to the dealer. If you have had all service made by the dealer like it should, they Guzzi will pay the parts. Even when warranty is over.

[Waterbottle]

Just checked the data plate, it says 1-2009 before the vin no. Am I in luck ? Obviously not

[Vasco DG]

There is a lot of horseshit talked about the flat tappet engines. Failures are generally dependent on two factors which I've covered many times. Poor servicing and use.

If you live in a cool, damp environment and mainly do short trips you will be more at risk of failure than if you do long trips and rarely ride in the rain. My explanation of the reasons for this has been posted many times before and should be easily searchable here and on other forums.

There is also the problem that a lot of shops, especially older 'Established' shops think that since it essentially *Looks* like an older Guzzi you can treat it the same as your 1977 T3. You can't. Its oil is a MAJOR cooling element for the pistons and top end. Ironically the motor will over-cool when it rains but the oil that goes past the exhaust valve seats will get VERY hot. Run any old shitbox mineral oil and it WILL cook. Even the very best synthetic oils will cook if you leave your bike idling for half an hour but a mineral will degrade really quickly as it gets momentarily heated to very high temperatures in the cooling galleries and when it contacts the bottom of the piston crowns from the under piston sprays. The full ester synth specified for the engine has it done so for a reason. Ignore ot at your peril but don't expect any sympathy if you use 'Free Grandfather Clock With Every Five Litres' mineral stuff because its 'Cheap'!

My early A5 shitbox is up to 70,000 Km. Unless I need to, which I doubt I will, I'll wait until I've done about 80,000 before I install my roller kit. Why? Because that equates to 50,000 miles which will be a good benchmark for people who live in primitive countries that haven't embraced decimalisation! ;D even my *Early* chilled cast iron tappets never failed in 23,000Km, (The factory 'Forgot' to send me my technical update parts, well done them!). My bike makes a horrid noise, it is absurdly clattery but it NEVER goes wrong and goes like a cut cat!

Use the right oil. Ride it far enough and hard enough to get it HOT at least once a week and don't leave it siting for weeks on end after a short ride. It'll probably last forever.

Of course if whoever services it doesn't have a clue all bets are off.

Pete

[Waterbottle]

Thanks for that Pete. I'm new here as you can tell, so sorry for all the questions that have been asked before.
My Griso,s done 20k now, rarely used for less than 1/2 hour runs. I've always Cut the filters open when I change the oil to inspect for particals, a bit anal ? Maybe , but I have a proper cutter that makes the task easy. Never found anything yet. I use the correct spec oils throughout and have had no mechanical issues. As Paul said I'll contact my local dealer for more info but I'm no longer concerned, the way my work commitments are it may take me another 5 years get the clock up to 40k.
Again thanks for everyone's help here and on other topics, the questions will get less annoying as I learn more,
Ron

[molly]

Pete is the conversion possible on the 1200 Sport 8v?

[Vasco DG]

Pete is the conversion possible on the 1200 Sport 8v?

Yes Dave but its expensive to do it off your own bat. Prices vary wildly for parts between different markets. For instance a driveshaft for a CARC bike retails for $900 here, in the USA it retails for $199. Why? I have no idea!

Over here my kit cost me over $1,400 and that's trade. Retail its over $1,800! It may well be cheaper elsewhere.

The thing is though that if you live in the right climate, don't often ride in the wet and thrash the living bejasus out of your flat tappet 8V at least once a week it will probably last forever. Mine shows no signs of going udders skywards after 70,000km but in parts of Europe particularly bikes were regularly failing sometimes as early as 2,000 miles. I can't say with 100% certainty that those are the causes, (Short trips, damp climate, poor maintenance.) but the logic stacks up so well I'll run with it.

As it is any flat tappet bike that fails will be supplied with the 'Upgrade' kit for free. If the failure occurs within warranty its entirely covered but even out of warranty, at the factory's discretion, the parts will be supplied but labour has to be paid for.

Why did I choose to buy my kit rather than waiting, probably in vain, for mine to fail? Three reasons really.

1.) Because I can and can afford to. Something that many owners can't. As such it is a way of putting people's minds at rest and if I can help lay to rest the 'Sky is falling!' Idea that the wonderful 8V engine is somehow a plague ridden monster to be avoided at all cost I'm happy to do it.

2.) Because as a service agent I want to be not only on top of my game but ahead of it. I'd prefer to learn about shit in my own bike than screw around with stuff on my customers' machines.

3.) Because the change from flat to roller tappets requires entirely different cam profiles, (And a few other changes.) but the factory still specifies the GRS8V03 map for fuelling. I want to see exactly what changes there are to the way the engine pumps purely for my own inquisitive nature.

I suppose there is also a forth reason in that I'd really like to stop my bike making a noise like an eighteenth century stamping mill! It is just stupidly mechanically noisy! The roller tappet bikes are a lot quieter. I've had blokes on Japanese and German bikes tell me I need to take my bike to a mechanic because its obviously horribly broken! ;D Its not, but especially in hot weather I can understand why they might think it is!!!

Pete

[pauldaytona]

For the 1200 sport 8V comes a kit D made for that. Prices from the kit very widely, depending on type, and have no relation to the parts inside.

kit A USD 999,38
kit B USD 754,00
Kit C USD 1.456,00

[Vasco DG]

Hadn't heard about the 'D' kit. Must be due to different cam profiles. Mark and I are trying to build a map for the 1200-8V at the moment and its being a real headache....

No idea why, yet!

Pete

[FreshEgg]

Well my kit arrived. This is the 'C' kit for early A5 motors. It requires the removal of the heads to shim the valve springs which is a bore. Its also a sort of weird hybrid as it contains rocker carriers/camboxes that are machined so you can use the early rocker covers which is a bore. I would of though it would of been a lot simpler to just replace the rocker carriers and covers to keep parts selection easy.

New cambox.



The 'Pads' that go into the rockers to cope with their radial movement.



They fit on the roller tappets like so.



Scrappy pic of the rollers, sorry, I'm not going to take the cambox apart, you need a special tool to reassemble it, I don't have one yet.



Pete

Pete: Where do those little black pressed tin things , beside the spherical "pads", go for the install?

Thanks,
SJ

[Vasco DG]

Earthing tangs.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

I suppose there is also a forth reason in that I'd really like to stop my bike making a noise like an eighteenth century stamping mill! It is just stupidly mechanically noisy! The roller tappet bikes are a lot quieter. I've had blokes on Japanese and German bikes tell me I need to take my bike to a mechanic because its obviously horribly broken! ;D Its not, but especially in hot weather I can understand why they might think it is!!!

Pete

Hope the noise stopped, bet you question how anyone rode such a thing now, people did say

There is a lot of horseshit talked about the flat tappet engines. Failures are generally dependent on two factors which I've covered many times. Poor servicing and use.

If you live in a cool, damp environment and mainly do short trips you will be more at risk of failure than if you do long trips and rarely ride in the rain. My explanation of the reasons for this has been posted many times before and should be easily searchable here and on other forums.


Of course if whoever services it doesn't have a clue all bets are off.

Pete

[muddyjwj]

I have a 2010 Stelvio and I am just learning about the flat tappet problem.  I only have 4200 miles on it.  It has been meticulously kept in a dehumidified garage.  Unfortunately, I don't have much time to ride, but when I do I usually ride about 100 miles per trip.  I have used the factory recommended oil.  I live in South Florida in a hot, humid environment.  Do think I have to have the conversion done now or is there a chance I can get some miles out of it without damaging the engine?  Thank you for your input.

[guzzisteve]

They probably just starting to wear, that is where you can see it. They all need to be fixed. The thing is that Guzzi won't fix unless they show it. Seen them and changed them at all different mileages. I'd head to Miami.

[Lannis]

I have a 2010 Stelvio and I am just learning about the flat tappet problem.  I only have 4200 miles on it.  It has been meticulously kept in a dehumidified garage.  Unfortunately, I don't have much time to ride, but when I do I usually ride about 100 miles per trip.  I have used the factory recommended oil.  I live in South Florida in a hot, humid environment.  Do think I have to have the conversion done now or is there a chance I can get some miles out of it without damaging the engine?  Thank you for your input.

I have a 2009 and knowing what I know now, I wouldn't ride the bike another mile without fixing it.    You really don't know what state your tappets are in.   Some are worn out in 4000 miles; some (like mine) went almost 40,000 miles and were just starting to go.

When they fail, they shed hardened bits of tappet-facing into your oil stream, into the bearings and pump and everywhere else, and then your motor is hosed.    The only way of detecting that it's happening is by measuring the valve lash - but unfortunately, by the time you're measuring increasing valve lash, you've already got hardened shrapnel in your oil.

There are hundreds of people now that have gone through the experience - were I you, I'd take advantage of what they've learned and just get it sorted without having to wonder.

You need a good dealer to work with, because only through a dealer and their documentation of the state of the tappets will Moto Guzzi supply you the $1400 kit to fix the issue.    You can do it yourself following Pete R.'s photo-documentation of the process, or pay a shop about $700 to do it for you.

Lannis

[Orange Guzzi]

I was talking to my Brother the machine shop owner about EDM ing a pocket into the rocker arm and dropping a bearing into the pocket.  He said the pocket would have to be polished to prevent erosion/wear.  Sound like a much easier approach. 

What happens when you lose a ball into the head or crankcase?

[pete roper]

It's not the rockers that wear, it's the tappets. The only viable fix is Rollerisation.

[muddyjwj]

I have a 2009 and knowing what I know now, I wouldn't ride the bike another mile without fixing it.    You really don't know what state your tappets are in.   Some are worn out in 4000 miles; some (like mine) went almost 40,000 miles and were just starting to go.

When they fail, they shed hardened bits of tappet-facing into your oil stream, into the bearings and pump and everywhere else, and then your motor is hosed.    The only way of detecting that it's happening is by measuring the valve lash - but unfortunately, by the time you're measuring increasing valve lash, you've already got hardened shrapnel in your oil.

There are hundreds of people now that have gone through the experience - were I you, I'd take advantage of what they've learned and just get it sorted without having to wonder.

You need a good dealer to work with, because only through a dealer and their documentation of the state of the tappets will Moto Guzzi supply you the $1400 kit to fix the issue.    You can do it yourself following Pete R.'s photo-documentation of the process, or pay a shop about $700 to do it for you.

Lannis

Thanks for the good advice.  Unfortunately, the dealers I've spoken to don't seem to have a clue about the roller tappet conversion and I don't feel comfortable doing the conversion myself.  Do you know of any youtube videos I can watch?

[JeffOlson]

Thanks for the good advice.  Unfortunately, the dealers I've spoken to don't seem to have a clue about the roller tappet conversion and I don't feel comfortable doing the conversion myself.  Do you know of any youtube videos I can watch?

Some dealers are much better than others. Where are you located?

[guzzisteve]

Yes, Pete did make video didn't he? Was about 15min long.

[pete roper]

The vid I did was simply to show how easy it was to inspect them. John Burgess was told $2000 to inspect. It took me 13 minutes to get the cambox disassembled on the bench! I wish I could get paid $1000 per hour! (I only did the LH side for the vid.)

I have done a fAirly long photoessay on it though.

[jlburgess]

Pete has a Master's in rollerization and can do it 3x faster than most other mechanics plus identified the entire issue before the factory could figure out what happened.  So that leaves us with the following facts that I have seen;

1. Every DLC flat tappet replaced under warranty will be granted a continuation warranty by Piaggio USA provided you have some documentation of previous service and are very persistant.  This applies to parts only and you foot the bill.  Pretty fair if you have a good dealer.

2.  The labor is varying widely among dealers especially if they have no prior experience with the issue.  They might even declare it to be normal wear and give a half-assed attempt to get the roller parts authorized.  As a rule of thumb 4-6 hours for A or B kit and 6-10 hours for a C kit requiring head removal.  Extra cost for severe carnage requiring sump drop and backflushing the oil cooler.

3.  Moto Guzzi should have hired Pete in 2007 to help validate the design of 8V engines and saved us all a lot of grief and money!

4.  Rollerise your bike expense be damned and enjoy the best retro bike that has still not been given proper credit for excellent handling and power characteristics while being very simply maintained.  Or just buy a later model bike and have a great ride.

Just my 2 cents 😁

[pete roper]

Actually John I was part of the problem. I defended the flat tappet design for a very long time because I wasn't seeing any failures on bikes I'd serviced from new. The problem was that they were failing, just not catastrophically enough for the failure to be evident. They don't start making a noise or behaving noticeably badly until all the DLC is gone and the parent metal of the tappet starts degrading. It wasn't until I started seeing problems on bikes I'd serviced from new in about 2013 that I instituted my 'Inspect every one' policy and discovered how wrong I had been.

I've been trying to atone for that mistake by informing every owner I can about the problem and how one should address it. That's the difference between an adult and a child though. Being able to admit you are wrong is not something to be ashamed of. Resolutely continuing to try and maintain an untruth really isn't.........

Pete