2003 moto guzzi stone engine tapping

[Rico88]

So I just got the recall done at a new moto guzzi dealership. I was pleased with them, and it seems like they actually did all the work they were supposed to (which is always a plus).  Anywhoo.

I noticed the engine makes a tapping sound on both heads. I don't know for sure or not if this was there before, since I am still relatively new to this bike. The noise sounds like metal hitting metal, and it persists with acceleration, after the bike has warmed up, and at freeway speeds). It is not super loud, but you can still hear it. It feels almost like something is hitting the head cover. When I put my glove on the head cover and the engine is idling, it doesn't sound as "tinky" anymore it sounds more like a muffled thud and I feel a tap tap tap tap vibration through my glove. So that's why I think the engine cover maybe what resonates the sound, and may be one of the metal pieces that is making contact with another metal piece.

My other theory is that the valves maybe trying to close too far, and the sound of that contact is most easily heard through the head cover.

Any ideas?

[Vasco DG]

Whip off a rocker cover and make sure they have snapped the tops off the adjusters. If they haven't then the tops of the adjusters bash on the rocker covers.

[Rico88]

I'll check that out! I am hoping it is something that simple.
 ;-T

[Late to the party]

Whip off a rocker cover and make sure they have snapped the tops off the adjusters. If they haven't then the tops of the adjusters bash on the rocker covers.

That would simply wreck my day.

[oldbike54]

That would simply wreck my day.

 :D :D :D :D :D
Yeah , and where is our update Rico , if your name really is Rico  :D Around here , we expect answers  ;D

  Dusty

[bigbikerrick]

That would simply wreck my day.

Yeah, no kidding!  If they did the recall, and forgot to twist off the adjusters, you wonder what else did they"forget "?
Rick

[bigbikerrick]

:D :D :D :D :D
Yeah , and where is our update Rico , if your name really is Rico  :D Around here , we expect answers  ;D

  Dusty

Thats right, Dusty, you tell Rico the way we roll around these parts! We not only want answers, but pictures too! ;D
Rick.

[oldbike54]

Thats right, Dusty, you tell Rico the way we roll around these parts! We not only want answers, but pictures too! ;D
Rick.

 :D :D Rick , on the oil/waffle thread going now , you'll notice that  I have been elected a waffle providing benevolent dictator  ::) ;D Or maybe that is a waffling tater head , hard to tell with this group  :o :D Either way , we demand answers  :BEER: and , hmm , we need a waffle icon  :food

  Dusty

[sgtstinky]

I just noticed a clicking sound coming off the right rocker, I need to take a look in there too

[Dick]

So I just got the recall done at a new moto guzzi dealership. I was pleased with them, and it seems like they actually did all the work they were supposed to.

Almost. ;D

Did they get to it before the cam and lifters self destructed? If not, did they take a look at the oil pump for shrapnel damage? Many posts here regarding collateral damage from cam and lifter failure. You might want to ask your mechanic. Good luck.

[Karl Von]

I bought a 03 stone a while back.  before I bought it, I checked with 2 dealers to see that the recalls were done.  MGNA had the cam recalls performed by a dealer in Jax FL.  I bought the bike and a few months later on a long ride, I noticed a taping noise that would come and go.  I did some research and pulled the valve covers to find that the recall was never done. From what I remember the original rockers were a gold color and the updated ones were silver.  There is a initial vale lash adjustment on the updated set.  Once the initial adjustment it set, the adjusters are snapped off. 

I found out that the Jax dealer charged guzzi for the recall and just gave the bike back to the owner without even pulling the valve cover.  The hydro lifter was loosing its prime when the motor got warm but luckily no damage was done.   

Took the bike to Moto Nexus in Ashville NC and they took care of it.  I took it on a 5,000 mile road trip a year ago with no problems.. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

I found out that the Jax dealer charged guzzi for the recall and just gave the bike back to the owner without even pulling the valve cover.

Unfortunately, that's not the first time I've heard that one.. <grumbling>

[rodekyll]

I had a similar problem with a hydro EV I bought.  The recall had been claimed by a dealer but he work wasn't all done -- no inspection for internal damage, and the engine was completely ruined by the failure the recall was supoposed to address.  MG said all they do is pay the chit -- they don't check to see if the service was competent or complete.  They also said that once the recall paperwork has been processed for that VIN they don't care any further.  MG refused to name the dealer or give me any other information about the service.  If I wanted the recall done *again* I was free to pay for it.  The damage caused by the cam failure went through the engine innards like a smart bomb, chewing up the oil pump and embedding shrapnel in the bearings.  I had to rebuild the whole damn thing.


Having both jackal and an ev engines in my bikes I still think a sorted hydro is the superior mill.  I just wish there wasn't so much grief getting there.

[Waltr]

All this is very unfortunate.  We are waiting for a set of tools to complete this job on a bike we have in the shop now. Piaggo ponied up and is paying for this bike to get it done.  Looking through the service procedure the job is not exactly a walk in the park and includes a very detailed explanation on how to clean out the block even if there is no sign of shrapnel.   

[Vasco DG]

All this is very unfortunate.  We are waiting for a set of tools to complete this job on a bike we have in the shop now. Piaggo ponied up and is paying for this bike to get it done.  Looking through the service procedure the job is not exactly a walk in the park and includes a very detailed explanation on how to clean out the block even if there is no sign of shrapnel.   

Walt? If you can't get the tools locally give me a hoy, you can borrow mine.

Pete

PS? Why would you claim for the work and then not do it? That is a huge shitfight waiting to happen! Not only is it dishonest but it is opening you up to ll sorts of accusations of sharp practice.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

PS? Why would you claim for the work and then not do it?

Unfortunately, there was a period in the US when Aprillia, I think, let any swinging dick with a few bux sell Guzzis. Didn't have to know anything about them, no training.. you get the picture, and it wasn't pretty. Turning in a claim and not doing it was pure profit, and most of them would have been totally unable to do the recall anyway. <shrug>

[Rico88]

Sorry for the late reaponse. It turns out they did forget to snap off the adjusters. The mechanic told me it didn't make sense to him to install a new part (the adjusters) and then break them so they could never be adjusted again. That was his rationale for not doing it. They snapped them off and the sound went away. I haven't noticed any other issues now. they said there was signs of premature wear, and they "overhauled the engine". I doing think they replaced anything that was not included in the recall kit. Since I had to provide them with new gaskets, because they weren't provided and they said they could just reuse the old ones, but I wanted them to use new ones.

[krglorioso]

Rico:  If you ever return to that dealer for any reason but to cop a free calendar, you'll hear from us.

Ralph

[Rico88]

Thanks guys!  I have a good mechanic I trust that is not a dealer, and has a lot of experience with guzzis. I will take the bike to him for future work. (Unfortunately he wouldn't get paid to do the recall). Is there anythingin particular I should lookout for? I assumed overhauling the engine meant they fixed everything, but unfortunately my mechanical understanding is limited. Though I try to pick up what I can.
I Have about 1100 miles left until my 12k service is due. Should probably take me  3-4 weeks depending on the rain. So I'll be taking it to my mechanic then. The only other issue I noticed was a small oil leak. Though it looks like it is hopefully from the oil pan gasket, and I don't think they replaced that since they didn't ask me to buy them one. But i figured it is not bad enough yet that it can't wait till the next service. It takes about 2-3  days of sitting for any drops to appear on the ground. (I figured the bike just crys a little if I neglect her) the previous owner locked her in a garage for years, and I promised her I would do that to her again. But she may have trust issues when I ride her daily and take a sudden break due to rain..

[Wayne Orwig]

I assumed overhauling the engine meant they fixed everything, but unfortunately my mechanical understanding is limited.

I would assume that since they left the breakoff tabs on the adjusters, that to them, an 'overhaul' means they reset the trip meter.
They didn't 'overhaul' the motor.

Get someone you trust to look over the bike, brake fluid, pads. Grease the drive shaft splines, etc.

[Rico88]

So quick update. I had my mechanic look over the bike, and perform the 12k mile service. I asked him the inspect the valves ands check to see if it still had the proper clearance, to make sure their wasn't any damage from the rockers hitting the valve cover. He said that he there was no clearance and they couldn't even get a measurement. But the compression test was decent. Though the left cylinder was slightly lower than he liked. I believe the left was 115 psi and the right was 125.

They also did find magnetic metal debris in the oil. He said it looked kinda like a coppery sand. He said it was really fine, but it was magnetic. The bike does have a different filter on it, so the dealership did do an oil change when they did the service. Any ideas on if I have anything to worry about?

[youcanrunnaked]

If the instructions explicitly say that the adjusters need to be broken off, why would they refuse to do that?  Grrr!

Before breaking off the adjusters, they should have checked the clearances!  Grrrr!  Is there enough room to properly set the clearances?

The engine should have been flushed of all loose metal.  Grrrr! 

Please tell us which dealer this is.  I want to make sure I never do business with them.

[Rico88]

So, they said they did adjust it so there was cleance when they did the job. But they did not re check it before they cut off the tabs. I dont think they are re adjustable after the tabs were cut. Could the rockers hitting have messed up the clearance? Should they have re adjusted them after I had rode it and before the tabs were cut off?
Or would the hydraulic lifters kicking in mean there would be no clearance when he checked it? Do they have to be blead or anything to check the clearances? I'm going to talk to my mechanic later, so Im trying to get a better understanding of how it works.

so does this mean my engine does need to be flushed of metal debris? Is this sand like metal from the previous tappet?

This was done at the San jose bmw. They just became a moto guzzi dealer.

Also what should the pressure be during a compression test? I hear moto guzzi engines aren't known to be high compression performance engines.

[MotoGoosy]

Yeah, check for gaskets.

[Rico88]

Does anyone know if there is supposed to be clearance between the rocker arm and valve stem? (I believe that's what my mechanic said there is no clearance, and that didn't seem right to him)I'm trying to understand how this works, but am having difficulty wrapping my head around how the engine works.

[rodekyll]

I don't think an air gap is a good check for lash on the hydros.  Some lifters will leak off when the engine is off and some won't.  That's why you can get a little diesel clatter for a second when you first start the engine.  That's normal for some engines.


You can still adjust the valves, but it's more of a PITA.  

To check the lash you remove the rocker assembly, relieve the residual pressure, pull the lifter insert, replace it with a calibrated slug, adjust to the slug, pull the slug, replace the insert, replace the rocker assembly [X no. of valves).  During all that, if you need to do an adjustment you can easily work the adjuster post without the screw end attached.

But I ask you -- did the dealer check the lash as I described above, or did he wiggle the adjuster with his finger and make some proclamation about it?

Anyone thinking that hydraulic valves need regular adjustments like solid ones do is ignorant of the technology and should not be trusted past holding the beer for the guy who knows.

  I'm not sure you can get a fair compression reading without pumping up the lifters.  They need oil pressure to seal.

My recall kit included everything but the mechanic to do the work for me -- parts, gaskets, special tools, etc.  IIRC, there's a list provided with the kit telling you what all should be in there.  I've seen a lot of incomplete kits sold on ebay missing parts, tools, or gaskets and still commanding several X retail $$$.  I think someone tried selling some here once.

If this outfit 'overhauled' the engine, did you get your old parts back?  That's the closest you'll get to 'proof of service'.  Ask them specifically if they pulled the oil pump and what condition is it in?  The vanes in my pump looked like wire brushes from the chewing they gave all that shrapnel.

[Rico88]

The recall kit I purchsed included all of the gaskets, oil filter too if I remember correctly.  Not sure this dealer is playing straight with you.

Are you with a dealership and have done this recall? Or did you do it on your own outta pocket?
Do you remeber what gaskets they included? I had to buy 6 or 8 tiny o rings (I'm not exactly sure what they were for, I just remeber them being pretty small), and the two head gaskets. They also charged me $60 labor to "renew the head gaskets."  
It also turns out that an exhaust leak is now occurring, and that there is an exhaust manifold seal that is leaking now. This is causing an engine ticking noise on the right side. My mechanic says he would have replaced it when he pulled the head off, if he had done the recall because this commonly happens if it is not replaced. (He is assuming they pulled the head to do the recall). They didn't mention having something that could have been replaced when they did the service. I told them that I would rather buy new gaskets out of my own pocket then for them to put it back together with the old ones. That is why I bought the other head gaskets and o rings for them, because that's all they Told me would be what they would be reusing.
Is this making sense to anyone? Would they have pulled the head to do this recall? And should they have replaced an exhaust manifold seal if they had the head pulled?

I believe I am rephrasing everything correctly, but I will make any corrections when I get a written report/summary of his findings from my mechanic.

[Rico88]

I don't think an air gap is a good check for lash on the hydros.  Some lifters will leak off when the engine is off and some won't.  That's why you can get a little diesel clatter for a second when you first start the engine.  That's normal for some engines.


You can still adjust the valves, but it's more of a PITA.  

To check the lash you remove the rocker assembly, relieve the residual pressure, pull the lifter insert, replace it with a calibrated slug, adjust to the slug, pull the slug, replace the insert, replace the rocker assembly [X no. of valves).  During all that, if you need to do an adjustment you can easily work the adjuster post without the screw end attached.

But I ask you -- did the dealer check the lash as I described above, or did he wiggle the adjuster with his finger and make some proclamation about it?

Anyone thinking that hydraulic valves need regular adjustments like solid ones do is ignorant of the technology and should not be trusted past holding the beer for the guy who knows.

  I'm not sure you can get a fair compression reading without pumping up the lifters.  They need oil pressure to seal.

My recall kit included everything but the mechanic to do the work for me -- parts, gaskets, special tools, etc.  IIRC, there's a list provided with the kit telling you what all should be in there.  I've seen a lot of incomplete kits sold on ebay missing parts, tools, or gaskets and still commanding several X retail $$$.  I think someone tried selling some here once.

If this outfit 'overhauled' the engine, did you get your old parts back?  That's the closest you'll get to 'proof of service'.  Ask them specifically if they pulled the oil pump and what condition is it in?  The vanes in my pump looked like wire brushes from the chewing they gave all that shrapnel.

I know for a fact they did not check anything when they pulled the covers off and cut the tabs. Because I watched him take off the cover, looked inside and said he could see where it was hitting the inside of the cover, but there wasn't much damage. He didn't check any lash or anything. He tried to break off the tabs with vise grips, but couldn't do so, so he grabbed an air grinder  with a cut off wheel on it and cut off the tabs.
I don't know how this is supposed to be done, so I don't know if that was proper or not.

I did not get the old parts back, but they said they have to hang onto them because recall law in California requires them to hold into any parts for x amount of years or something.
My recipt doesn't say anything about overhaul. That was just what he vibally told me.
I also do now know if they inspected the oil pump or not. Should that have been inspected and was that a requirement of the recall?
Does anyone have a link to, or a document they could email me that shows what parts the dealer gets (or should get from moto guzzi) and what work they are required to do by moto guzzi during this recall?

I haven't been able to find this information from any of my searching online, other than what I've read in this post and other post, and through word of mouth of the dealer.  It'd be nice to see an official document though that I could reference and use to educate myself.

[rodekyll]

The damage from a bad hydro cam sends metal bits into the oil and through the pump, chewing it up pretty good.  What gets through the pump can embed in the main and rod bearings.  Mine looked like it had been attacked by baskin robbins sprinkles and were badly grooved.  I had to do a complete teardown and replace all the bearings.  So yes, the oil pump inspection needs to be done.  From where they were with the recall teardown, the pump is four bolts and no gaskets away, so there's no excuse at all for not pulling it and taking a look.


MG was completely uncaring and refused to tell me anything about the dealer who'd done the work, except that the dealer had submitted the paperwork for my VIN.  They felt that the paperwork concluded the matter regardless of the facts.

[Dick]

He tried to break off the tabs with vise grips, but couldn't do so, so he grabbed an air grinder  with a cut off wheel on it and cut off the tabs.

Wow! Did he stir up the grinding bits with the oil before replacing the valve covers. Makes a cheap grinding compound for you engine to ingest. Hope he took some precautionary measures before firing up the grinder. Doesn't seem likely, though. Good luck.