Towing & Tow Vehicle NGC

[charlie b]

We have a full size mattress in the back of the Suburban.  (2nd row seats folded, 3rd row removed).  All the comforts of home!

The problem is when you need to step out of it when it's raining, or to simply change clothes.  However, It's much more comfortable/secure sleeping in the Suburban, than sleeping in the tent. 

I've been noticing all the compromises with the Class C RVs.  No diesels in the smaller ones.  Not enough towing capacity in the larger ones (29 ft F450.  I'm not looking at the Super C RVs.  They're expensive!)  26 foot is the shortest with walk-around bed in the back.  29 foot has too much overhang.  23 foot you have to sleep in the cabover or pull out the sofa.  Etc. Etc.

Yep, that's the problem when you have a 'hobby' you want to bring with you, especially one that takes up space or weighs a lot.

Toy haulers or custom trailers seem like one of the few options in those cases.  Are you hauling more than two horses?  If not maybe a custom trailer would be best.  Matt Forslund, the NM MGNOC rep has one with large workspace in the back and living quarters in the front.  I've seen similar for horses around here at the racetracks.

[rocker59]

Yep, that's the problem when you have a 'hobby' you want to bring with you, especially one that takes up space or weighs a lot.

Toy haulers or custom trailers seem like one of the few options in those cases.  Are you hauling more than two horses?  If not maybe a custom trailer would be best.  Matt Forslund, the NM MGNOC rep has one with large workspace in the back and living quarters in the front.  I've seen similar for horses around here at the racetracks.

We've currently got three horses, but usually only need to pull two at a time.  Our trailer holds two.  It's an all-aluminum Featherlite.  A nice trailer.



Living Quarters horse trailers are quite common in the horse world.  Basically a long horse trailer with RV living quarters in the front and diagonally placed horse stalls in the back.  Most of them are three or four horse capacity.  Problem is they're heavy and require a 1-ton truck, if they're very large.  My dad uses a Powerstroke F350 Superduty for pulling his trailers.   This is the LQ Sundowner my dad has.  My tent next to it.  A used trailer like his Sundowner would probably run $25k.  Cool thing about them is that when the horse dividers are removed, you can haul lots of other stuff.  Like motorcycles!



Since I have a Suburban, I'd have to buy a truck in order to pull a gooseneck LQ trailer.  A used $25k truck and a used $25k trailer are just not in the budget.  That's why I've been considering the Class C idea to pull my Featherlite 2-horse trailer to events.

[Gary]

From the responses here, it appears that we all have slightly different needs / visions for an RV. Whether it is camping, hauling toys and having a place to sleep, horses and the same, weekend trips with you own bedroom, long term traveling, etc. Some of the suggestions as to tow vehicles and/or RV's really don't fit my vision of what I want to do the next few years. The reason I am most interested in a tow behind and a all wheel drive SUV are:

1.) I plan to take 3+ weeks trips a couple of times a year at least. Generally I would travel to a destination, such as Yellowstone or Southern Utah, and set up base for a week at a NPS or other campground and explore things within a days drive. Hence the desire to have a nice comfortable car for the purpose. This leaves out Class C Motorhomes for me as I don't want to drive it around everywhere.

2.) On a typical trip, I would probably put as many miles on the tow vehicle alone as I would towing. I believe this use minimizes the cost penalty for going gas.

3.) I like to camp. I am not fond of sleeping on the ground anymore, nor do I relish the setting up and breaking camp with a tent. Parking the RV at a nice campground and enjoying the outdoors, albeit with a nice comfy camper sleep in or to escape inclement weather, appeals to me.

4.) I find that I am more social in my "old" age. My wife and I look forward to the prospect of interacting and getting to know our fellow campers across the country.

5.) It is not out of the question that we may purchase a piece of property in the N. GA mountains, or southern Colorado, or elsewhere and park the RV there for extended periods.

6.) It would be nice to have a vehicle to explore off road areas should we want.

7.) I have no desire to have a M/C with me on trips. I love riding alone and my wife occasionally likes to ride with me on a day or overnight trip, but it would not be the appropriate vehicle for my wife and I to explore with.

I believe either a pull behind TT or a fifth wheel best suits the way I think I will use it. Of course things may change after hitting the road awhile. Because of size, cost and the need for a pickup I prefer to concentrate on the pull behind now. As well I hope to pull it with an SUV. I know conventional wisdom seems to dictate otherwise, but sometimes "conventional" is not wise at all. I am pretty sure that one of the vehicles I suggested originally will serve well for my intended purpose, but that is why I asked if others here had experience with towing with any of them.

The Porsche Cayenne seems to be the most logical and capable vehicle of the lot. Plenty of power, superior suspension and brakes, and lower center of gravity than a 4 wheel drive 3/4 ton truck. The structural rigidity and superior suspension of the Porsche trumps most potential tow vehicles. I am not 100% convinced that I am heading in the right direction, but the prospective rewards compel me to explore this option thoroughly. I plan on deciding on the RV by summer but postponing the purchase until the end of the year. After determining the RV I plan to buy, I will move quickly on the tow vehicle, probably before summer is over.

[rocker59]

It's been done.  Happy camping.



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/porsche-cayenne-diesel-129706.html

[rboe]

Sweet! Outside my pay grade, but sweet! A Dr. buddy went the Airstream route for many years. Bought used, upgraded a couple times. Finally bought new last year. So what does he do after his last long road trip? He buys a very nice, used, Airstream Class A.

I think he's spoiled now.

Makes me wonder if, over time, he'll down size back to a trailer. Class A's tend to limit you in ways that may be a PITA. Kinda like the problem with Class C's only worse.

[Gary]

A post on another forum from someone who tows with a Cayenne. Below that, is an Airstream test video that among other things shows the stability of a Cayenne even when the TT loses control (no, not the Airstream).

"I've had several 1 ton and HD3/4 ton trucks. I've towed the exact same trailer with the exact same load with both the trucks and my CTT. The CTT is a better two rig!!  

If you want to quote "physics" then let's look at them

The Cayenne was designed to handle like a sports car! Low center of gravity with much of the drivetrain mounted barely above the wheel center line! A suspension designed to be as stable as possible and have traction at the limits!

These all sound like good things when towing! Length doesn't create stability, good suspension and low center of gravity does! Most pickups have the drivetrain mounted far above the axles and a suspension from the wooden wagon days!


Let's tall about sway. The most stable towing platform is to mount the hitch point directly over the rear axle. Doing this totally eliminates the "lever arm" upon which sway is amplified. This is the distance from the rear axle to the hitch location. On most large pickups this length is 3-4 feet!! On the CTT its about 1.5-2 feet. So sway has less effect on a CTT than on a pickup running a normal rear mounted hitch.

Brakes! The Cayenne was designed to stop in the same distance as a 911 of the same era. Big brakes, lots of force, lots of cooling. Trailer brakes help, but I can tell your from hauling a 7700lb trailer behind my Dodge 2500 and the CTT with the same trailer brake controller installed on each. The Cayenne stops MUCH MUCH BETTER!!

I'd rather tow with my CTT any day for safety and stability over my HD trucks!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422411861&feature=player_embedded&x-yt-cl=84924572&v=7cMg42sW6NU

[bross]

That's certainly a consideration. If I go that way, I would probably plan on towing something smaller and less expensive, like a Subaru.

This was our solution...


Class A toy hauler for the bikes, pulling our Edge. We spend 3-4 months a year in it down south and it's been working very well for us. We upgraded from a small class A towing a 14' enclosed trailer for the bikes because we wanted a vehicle as well.

It's a Ford F53 chassis with the V10 gas motor. The chassis works very well, handles great, way better than our older workhorse chassis.

The motor / tranny is good, the V10 is a revver so can be loud when pulling a steep pass but normal cruising at 60-65mph it's running at 2100-2400 and is great. My only niggle and it's just a "feature" of the gas motor is the lack of engine braking (exhaust brake) of a diesel on long down grades. The motor tranny can handle up to 6% grade easily but steeper and I need to use 1st gear which equates to about 25-28mph so we just sit in the truck lane with the semis with our flashers on. I never get brake fade because I don't use my brakes going downhill! But the F53 chassis has big brakes that stop the rig quickly if needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rocker59]

and the dog gets to ride, too!   ;-T

[charlie b]

If you are convinced a Cayenne is right, then go for it.  I would not be.  Despite the story listed and the canamrv website I would tend to not take their comments as the final say.  Especially since the canam guy makes his living by selling trailers.  What better way to make more sales than to be able to sell a trailer to anyone who walks in the door.

As I stated before, if I spent that much on a tow vehicle I would "love" it too ;)  The comments listed about the Porsche are questionable to me, especially the one about wheelbase and low CG.

I would still strongly suggest, that if you want to tow with a smaller SUV then get an airstream.  If you get one with flat sides you will regret it later.

Unfortunately you will only find out about stability or other issues once you have had it for a while.  If you never encounter a strong crosswind, or those combinations of crosswind and trucks, or an avoidance maneuver, then you'll never see any difference between a stable platform and one that is not so stable.  Brakes?  The trailer stops itself 99% of the time so that is a wash too.

I wish you luck.

[charlie b]

We've currently got three horses, but usually only need to pull two at a time.  Our trailer holds two.  It's an all-aluminum Featherlite.  A nice trailer.

Since I have a Suburban, I'd have to buy a truck in order to pull a gooseneck LQ trailer.  A used $25k truck and a used $25k trailer are just not in the budget.  That's why I've been considering the Class C idea to pull my Featherlite 2-horse trailer to events.

Yep, that's the problem  :) 

Class C would seem to solve the problem if you could get the towing capacity.  What about one of the short Class A's?  Ours was a 26ft.  We towed a 4000lb pickup with it so don't think that should be an issue.  Those have other driving issues (like sway in crosswinds) but also are usually pretty low priced in the used market.

[rocker59]

Short Class A's seem hard to find right now, and I'd want diesel.  Lots of 35'-40' Class A's out there, and many for less than Class C's that I've been checking out.

The problem for me and a big Class A is that parking (when not being used) would be a problem, parking (at some places I go) would be a problem, and having to take it to a big truck dealer for driveline servicing would be a hassle.

A nice 7.3L Powerstroke F450 Class C would be my 1st choice.

Really just in the planning stage, though.  Not anywhere near ready to pull the trigger on something like this.

[rboe]

The canamrv fellow holds workshops at Airstream rally's on towing, setup and such. He is a great resource. But he seems to always be towing Airstreams with unconventional tow vehicles because the aerodynamic load is so much lower.

His shop will also modify stock factory hitches (e.g. on the Ford Flex he adds another mount point so the hitch can handle the extra torque from the distribution hitch). He has his own test track for testing tow vehicles with trailers before seeing the road and he has done thousands of installs. He backs up his talk with real world experience. He has a very deep data set. Shoot, he even set up a BMW Mini to a small Airstream.

So he offers up a choice for some folks that can't or won't go the traditional tow vehicles; it's always nice to have choices.

He also does an article on towing in RV Life. I've got a buddy that tows with his pickup over in Michigan. He can't buy what this guy is selling, meh, no big deal. I find it very interesting.

[rboe]

We have some gals that tour the states in their big Class A's; One had a name brand "quality" unit that gave her no end of grief - mainly the slide out and jacks. In part of her travels she ended up going by the factory so she stopped in to have them fix what about six dealers could not. The other gal made some poor choices in roads and going where a Pinto would be challenged. Turning radius and height requirements can be a bitch with them.

Still, I look with a certain amount of envy when I see them on the road.

I'm starting to see some A's that are based on tractor trailer chassis. Seems to me the ride would be rougher, but on the other hand, I would think the whole drive train would be so understressed without a fully loaded trailer behind it that it would be an excellent choice. Anyone have experience with one of those?

[threebrits]

There are a few other figure you need to look at besides the "Towing capacity" of the vehicle.  There is the load capacity, for the Cayenne it around 1,650#.  Pretty good, but I suspect the advertising department rigged that number; you need to see if that is based on the dry weight, does it include passengers, fluids, accessories, etc.  The biggest problem you are going to run into is that even though the capacity is 1,650, it depends on where you place it.  Between the two axles, no real problem.  Behind the axle and then you get into suspension, rotational forces.  That is why the Cayenne (and many half ton pick ups with their comfortable suspensions) have such low pin weights.  For the Cayenne it only has a pin weight of 617#.  Your trailer needs to apply about 10-15% of its weight onto the pin to manage porpoising (up and down sway).  Some of this weight can be mitigated with a weight distribution hitch, but only some of.  Also a weight distribution hitch weighs about 100# itself.   An airstream is no advantage here, it has to apply this same 10-15% pin weight.

Remember that 1,650# load capacity.  As you add people and stuff to the vehicle you reduce the load capacity.  When that load capacity goes down, along with it goes the allowed pin weight.  I would estimate with 2 people, fluids, a full tank, and some personal stuff you pin weight capacity will be around 500#.  Now add on a 100# weight distribution hitch directly on the hitch itself.

The trailer needs to apply 10-15% of weight onto the hitch for stability.  If you reverse the equation: pin capacity/.125, (assuming 12.5% trailer weight on the hitch) that will give you how much total trailer weight you can have.  If your effective allowed pin weight is 500#, that max trailer you can tow is 4,000#.   That's a pretty small travel trailer.

Some of this depends on how much weight the hitch distributes, but remember even if it distributes weight to the front tires it's robbing your load capacity which still reduces you allowed pin weight.  It's not a free ride.  You get some of it back but not all of it.

And you can't ignore the CVWR listed on the inside door.  This is the combined weight of both vehicles, you will run out of weight here long before you hit the advertised "towing capacity," just as you will with the pin weight.

Research towing calculators.  Start plugging in figures for the vehicles you are looking at and the trailer size.  This is why even 1/2 pickups are not a very ideal setup. 

About the only way you can tow a small travel trailer (20-25 foot) safely with a cayenne is to look into hitches with their own wheels.  I'm not sure if they ever made it to market or not, but the last time I researched all this they were about $3,000.

Towing a vehicle at it max capacity is one thing.  Towing at max when you have a blowout, cross winds, head wind, up hills, down hills, on curves, being passed by a semi, emergency breaking, etc...  that is where the extra capacity of the vehicle may save you or someone else's life.

F*c% the salesmen and fanboys and do your own research.

[bross]

and the dog gets to ride, too!   ;-T

[bross]

Short Class A's seem hard to find right now, and I'd want diesel.  Lots of 35'-40' Class A's out there, and many for less than Class C's that I've been checking out.

The problem for me and a big Class A is that parking (when not being used) would be a problem, parking (at some places I go) would be a problem, and having to take it to a big truck dealer for driveline servicing would be a hassle.

A nice 7.3L Powerstroke F450 Class C would be my 1st choice.

Really just in the planning stage, though.  Not anywhere near ready to pull the trigger on something like this.

That's why I like the gasser, oil changes are easier on the RV than on the Edge. Any Ford dealer could work on it if needed.

[charlie b]

Those "A's" that are on a tractor cab/chassis are really labeled a Class C.  One of the little ironies in the RV world.  Class A's are full body setups on a bare chassis.

We almost went with a large Class A for full time use.  Really close as in finding one, lining up the money and ready to go back and buy it.  In the next couple of days I was offered a new job for a lot more money.  So I kept working  :)

Yep, compromises.

Anytime someone tells me they will have to modify a hitch or frame to make it work, then it is oh so wrong.  If it does not come with a hitch ready to go, or a hitch is not made for it, then that's a big red flag that you should get something else.

And, yes, I have 'modified' cars to tow trailers.  I knew the limitations and I knew that I was beyond the limits of the car when I did that.  I also knew that once I modified it no warranty work would be approved for it (yes, you can remove the hitch mods and lie to the dealer but I am not that kind of person).  But, my needs were for one time use, or, for very limited towing situations, and I limited my speed on the roads to compensate for the conditions.

Yes, you can tow just about any trailer with just about any vehicle.  My brother-in-law used to tow a 4000lb boat and trailer with his mini-van.  Just weekend trips to the lake about an hour away.  Five or six times a summer.  Funny, after two years of that the transmission went bad.  Wonder why.  They are labeled 'unconventional' for a reason.

[rocker59]

"Super C"   :BEER:

[Kev m]

  If your effective allowed pin weight is 500#, that max trailer you can tow is 4,000#.   That's a pretty small travel trailer.

This was a good write up and exercise, but you most me with these numbers.

If the effective max allowed pin weight was 500# wouldn't that allow for a trailer approaching 5000#?

What did I miss?

[charlie b]

If pin weight (bumper pull) allows 500lb then trailer weight could be up to 5000lb (4500lb would be on the wheels.)....IF the GCWR rating of the vehicle allows that much.

FWIW, if the vehicle is rated to tow a larger trailer then a Class III hitch should be an option from the dealer as well.

Vehicle weight capacities can be misleading but are usually based on the vehicle curb weight (wet) and the GVWR (usually determined by the axle capacities).  The listed curb weight in a brochure may be a bit off as well since sometimes optional equipment is not included.  You'd have to look at the door sticker on the vehicle you are using to determine the actual numbers.  Some mfgs list carrying capacity in addition to a driver, others do not.  Better to check the sticker and figure it yourself.  Same thing goes for trailers for that matter.

[hammick]

If you get the Porche I think toy haulers will be out of the quesiton.  My Forest River Stealth WA2313 has an 1,100lb tongue weight empty.

[threebrits]

This was a good write up and exercise, but you most me with these numbers.

If the effective max allowed pin weight was 500# wouldn't that allow for a trailer approaching 5000#?

What did I miss?

I used 12.5%.  If you used 10%, then it would be 5,000#.   The general rule is 10 to 15% of total trailer weight, which can be hard to measure without a scale.  There are lot's of variables like how well you load the trailer to not inadvertently add more weight than intended to the pin.  In the end there are some good calculators out there that take as many of these variables into consideration as possible.  Wheel base is usually part of the equation too.

[Gary]

When I posed the question, I was trying find others who have used these SUV's to tow travel trailers or similar loads. I was hoping someone here actually had experience doing so. I appreciate the opinions of all that respond. In brief searches the past few days, I have found about a dozen people who have towed extensively with the Cayenne or Touareg. In all those cases, the experience was reported as positive, glowing even. So far most of the people who have never tried say it shouldn't be done while those who have endorse it heartily. Hmmmm….

[rocker59]

This site isn't exactly running over with Porsche driving RV enthusiasts. More Likely To Get 1st Hand Experiences Of Wal-Mart tents and 20 year old motorcycles. The uppity d00ds have Kwik Kamp RVs

[charlie b]

Like I said, if you spend that kind of money on a tow vehicle, then  by and large you will love it, regardless.  And write glowing reports.  You may like it too.

Same for folks who choose to tow long bumper pulls.  There are many who love them and have many trouble free miles.  

I've seen a few of them rolled over on the side of a hill and watched them on windy highways.  I've also towed bumper trailers with a minivan.  It was not fun, even with a shorter trailer.