Daytona (big bore): repeated coil failure

[earemike]

Hi all,

I was looking for guidance with what appears to be repeated coil failure and am wondering if the Daytona is just cooking the coils or if there is something else I should look into. As a caveat I have been swapping in second hand coils. My V11's never had any coil issues so I figured second hand coils would be OK, of course the V11's & Cali's don't produce the same heat.

Over the last 1000km I've replaced both coils.

Is it possible they're getting too hot & if it's airflow/engine heat or could they be getting too much current? (That's beyond my knowledge). I'm guessing if it's the heat I can explore some other coil options?

It's one thing to raise itself on the road but I finally took the old girl to Phillip Island & it was pissing me off to cruise through Siberia & have it die in the ass before turn 7 so kids on BMW 1000's could fly past & tell me how cool the Daytona looked mid corner  ::(. (My riding was terrible but the Daytona deserves better). Fu*king pissed me off... Wasn't an issue for the first 3 sessions so I think I cooked this coil in around 100k's of track circulation.

OK so I wanted to vent, awesome to get the old bike out to the track but I've got to fix this bloody coil issue  ::(

Thanks in advance for any ideas/suggestions.

Mike

[rodekyll]

Have you swapped the coils into another vehicle to see if the problem follows them or stays with the bike?  I ask because ideally, a coil should outlast the rest of the bike.  Having that many failures (ok -- used coils are not conclusive but . . ) suggests an upstream cause.  There's just not a lot of bad that can happen upstream of a coil.  So some problem isolation is in order.

[pauldaytona]

Never had coil issues wit daytona, and not heard of others. Stock map? you don't have a map with special ignition things in it?

[earemike]

Have you swapped the coils into another vehicle to see if the problem follows them or stays with the bike?  I ask because ideally, a coil should outlast the rest of the bike.  Having that many failures (ok -- used coils are not conclusive but . . ) suggests an upstream cause.  There's just not a lot of bad that can happen upstream of a coil.  So some problem isolation is in order.

Thanks mate,

the Daytona seems to cook the coils, after she starts intermittently running on one cylinder I've been pulling the coils and testing. Without fail one of the secondary coils fails testing. I agree the coils should last, never had one issue on any other spine frames.

At the moment I'm guessing that heat or something else is overstressing the coils & appealing to those more knowledgeable than myself, as you said there's not a lot to go wrong!

Of course I can go buy two new coils which might last longer but the way I'm going I'd expect them to fail too...

[earemike]

Never had coil issues wit daytona, and not heard of others. Stock map? you don't have a map with special ignition things in it?

Thanks Paul,
you know a lot more about these bikes so if you've not come across it before I could have a problem!

The ecu box is allegedly one of the original 10 factory ignitions for the stroker crank (I don't know how to confirm this). The bike was rebuilt as an 1162 (I've got the ecu from that build) & then later as a 1288 in the RACECO days so this motor & electrics wouldn't have done more than 10,000km.

If it's the ECU then it's well beyond me but if there's reason for the ecu to contribute to the failure then it's a start point!

Thanks,

Mike

[earemike]

At the other end of the system, could plugs contribute to coil failure?

While I'm grasping at straws...

[Murray]

Ah yes No'1! I'd check its not running wasted spark ie its not firing both coils every power stroke other than that I'd check the signals from the flywheel etc and making sure you are not getting interference making the coils fire more often than they should.

[Orange Guzzi]

Is your battery going dead also while the bike is not being used?  If so, the kill switch or ignition is not shutting off and over heating the coils causing the failure.  Just a thought.  I would check the coils about an hour after your ride and see if they are hot.  If they are, you have a ignition wiring issue. 

[Tobit]

Secondary coils failing?  Have you checked the spark plug cables for any shorts to chassis or engine block when revving the bike?  An intermittent dead short across the secondary could overheat the coil and short windings, or burn the winding open, but a secondary short could also pull a lot of current through the primary winding. 

Just a guess.

Tobit

[pauldaytona]

Coils get to hot when duration of that they get 12v is to long.  Bike is running ok for the rest? Could also be the power stage that is a seperate module with that ecu. But I have never seen it fail, or doing strange things

[ibis1]

The 2 main causes of early coil failure are incorrect supply voltage (Primary Circuit) and excessive resistance (Secondary Circuit) All coils are designed to work at a predetermined voltage range. Some use an external ballast, some use an internal ballast and some use nothing. Make sure you're using the correct one and the supply voltage is correct and steady. On the Secondary side, be sure your ignition leads (Wires) are in good shape, including the terminals and boots. Depending on the type of conductor used, a ballpark figure of 1k per foot of wire is a good reference point. It is a good idea to check the resistance while wiggling the wire for a possible open circuit. Spark plug condition and gap are also very important. Worn plugs and or excessive gap will lead to premature coil failure.  Excessive resistance will overheat a coil in a short period of time. Remember even under ideal conditions, an ignition coil will run very hot and it is designed to function correctly under those conditions. Under normal conditions a quality coil should have a very long life expectancy. Good luck. :BEER:
 

[earemike]

Thanks all for the ideas on what to test/look for.

I managed to get hold of the previous owner who bounced my issues off the original owner & reflected known issues with their race bikes.

I should mention that I may have in fact replaced two Left coils and had previous trouble with the right cylinder firing (which changes some base assumptions).

Long story short previous owners said this set up chews plugs (I'm not sure of the technical reasons or if there's a better plug so am guessing they foul easy). It was suggested not to let it idle more than necessary?

It was also pointed out that a couple of other 1288's built here (OZ) had trouble with the left lead vibrating loose from the plug. I've confirmed that they were screwing an alloy clip to the rocker covers on the race bikes to secure the leads so it's not as far fetched as it seems.

I'm planning on new plugs/leads & coils and will monitor the problem from there. I'm not sure if a loose plug connection will contribute (I'd have expected it to miss?) but will try and eliminate as many simple potential problems as possible.

Thanks again for all the ideas advice, apart from helping me step back from the problem it let me vent & calm down before I get back into the task at hand.

Cheers,

Mike

[pauldaytona]

well get the ngk racing spark plug wires with cap. CR3  or CR1  They will give zero problems. It's a strange story they tell you. Not idle has to do with coils?  what sort of map is in it? Who made it?  I've a 1225 too, it will run on the daytona C kit map fine. You do have stock coils, or some special "racing" coils?

[earemike]

well get the ngk racing spark plug wires with cap. CR3  or CR1  They will give zero problems. It's a strange story they tell you. Not idle has to do with coils?  what sort of map is in it? Who made it?  I've a 1225 too, it will run on the daytona C kit map fine. You do have stock coils, or some special "racing" coils?

Thanks for the extra advice Paul, I'll try a set of CR1 with new plugs. I shouldn't have to worry about a loose connection with the screw on type, I have the stock coils.

I'm guessing the not idling was based on the race bikes fouling plugs in some situations. I'm grasping at straws but think if there is a chance the plugs are not firing properly then (as ibis commented) this may contribute to the problem. The leads also look original and the left may be an issue. I think it's simpler for me to refresh and pay close attention to the next 2000kms.

 Mine's not in full race spec (less compression) so when the second owner tells me this it may not be specific to my bike. I'm not sure about the map but will ask more questions.

As a Daytona Racing it should have the C kit, I believe this was retained. The heads were prepared locally & the pistons and rods by Omega. This and two others I know of were all built in Perth Australia while the map was created by Dwayne Mitchell (he worked with another bloke on the RACECO 1162 map). They used a dyno with the hand held tuning terminal, he also tuned a few 851's during this period. Perhaps this is something for me to look more closely at too.

[Tobit]

I'm interested in learning what you find.  No Daytona here, just general troubleshooting interest.  Any pics of the bike?

Tobit

[earemike]

Hi Tobit,

of course I'll sing out if I get a trouble free run. When it's running well it's way smoother than my V11's and has a lot of punch up top. I can cover some of my favorite roads cruising in 4th and rarely push near redline.

Couple of pics from the other day: