Author Topic: Gear oil in bell housing  (Read 9081 times)

Offline kevdog3019

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Gear oil in bell housing
« on: April 25, 2015, 03:13:24 PM »
Hmmm... looks like I gots a leak.  Getting gear lube in my bell housing on the Lario.  Tell me what's involved in my near future.  Output shaft (to flywheel)?  If so, what's the routine?  Aargh!
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Offline Bill N

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 04:02:56 PM »
Are you sue it's that stinky gear oil or perhaps engine oil? I've been weeping engine oil out of the bell for a couple of years now. My guess in any case if it's minor you'll be ok for a few years. Looking forward to other comments.
Bill

Offline Waterbottle

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 04:29:47 PM »
 Is it a Drip...... or a Drip Drip Drip.      Didn't older triumphs have a tray under the gearbox /engine you could pull out and clean ?  ???
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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 04:35:13 PM »
If it's gear oil it will either be the input shaft seal or the seals on the clutch pushrod leaking.

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2015, 04:35:13 PM »

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2015, 04:52:56 PM »
 Turns out it's now a drip drip drip and pretty oily when I stuck my finger in the hole. I noticed some last year coming out the bottom most bolt that holds the bell onto the engine casing yep... way up front). Didn't realize it's probably been there all along after getting the bike back.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 07:57:05 PM by kevdog3019 »
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Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 05:09:00 PM »
Kevin what gear oil are you using, dino or synthetic? I used Redline in my Monza and it seeped through both the pushrod seal and the input shaft seal after replacing both. Back to cheap dino oil, and the problem went away. Redline otoh stays put in the V50 gearbox other than being puked out the breather, no big deal.

The clutch pushrod seal is easy, although you have to take the bike apart to get to it. Classic $10 part and $1000 labor scenario… Input shaft seal was not fun, the secret is impact wrench. Think we had this conversation at one time. If it's just an occasional drop I wouldn't worry. If it's a lot, well you've had it apart before, right?…
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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 05:48:44 PM »
That's right! Smallblocks have a lipped seal for the pushrod don't they? Yes, it's a sod to get to!

Pete

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 05:53:36 PM »
If it is the pushrod seals, and it is a significant dripping, the clutch plates would be soaked and slipping.

Most likely engine oil from the rear main seal or such.

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 06:03:15 PM »
Turns out it's now a drip drip drip and pretty oily when I stuck my finger in the hole. I noticed some last year coming out the bottom most bolt that holds the bell onto the gear casing. Didn't realize it's probably been there all along after getting the bike back.

Sounds like a warranty problem to me..  ~;
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2015, 06:09:58 PM »
If it is the pushrod seals, and it is a significant dripping, the clutch plates would be soaked and slipping.

Most likely engine oil from the rear main seal or such.


Ed did all new seals in tear down so I'm told. I'm pretty certain its gear oil but will double check from what you say Wayne. I use synthetic strawberry shake in mine. Have had a little weep since getting the bike from Ed. Has about 1000 miles since done. Haven't seen anything since the beginning of this season until it say this past week, then a smudge under the bike like it seemed to do last year. I pulled the rubber bung and stuck my finger along the inside of the bell housing and got some good oily residue on my finger that I also saw on the bung inside. No clutch slipping. Flywheel looks dry. Leave it and watch it for awhile?  It's new, so...
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Online Cam3512

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2015, 06:12:14 PM »
This is why I use Bel Ray gear oil.  Passes the smell test and it's RED.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2015, 06:13:28 PM »
Ed did all new seals in tear down so I'm told. I'm pretty certain its gear oil but will double check from what you say Wayne. I use synthetic strawberry shake in mine. Have had a little weep since getting the bike from Ed. Has about 1000 miles since done. Haven't seen anything since the beginning of this season until it say this past week, then a smudge under the bike like it seemed to do last year. I pulled the rubber bung and stuck my finger along the inside of the bell housing and got some good oily residue on my finger that I also saw on the bung inside. No clutch slipping. Flywheel looks dry. Leave it and watch it for awhile?  It's new, so...

So once you stuck your finger in it, why didn't you sniff it?  ~; ;D
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2015, 06:53:01 PM »
So once you stuck your finger in it, why didn't you sniff it?  ~; ;D
I did, but wanted a second sniff.  :D
Gear oil.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2015, 06:54:21 PM »
This is why I use Bel Ray gear oil.  Passes the smell test and it's RED.

This is pink (in quantity) and smells like strawberries.  :P
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 12:50:04 AM »
Hmm, reminds me of the grape jelly used to seal up TCM crankcase halves..lol
What do you think about going to Dino gear oil Kev?

Offline Muzz

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2015, 01:18:54 AM »
If it is the pushrod seals, and it is a significant dripping, the clutch plates would be soaked and slipping.

Most likely engine oil from the rear main seal or such.

Wayne, I suspect that the clutch plates will have survived.  Quite difficult on the smallblock for gear oil to actually reach them.  Mine was done under warranty and I was told to keep on riding it until the parts arrived. no oil made it through.

Kev, yes it is a bit of a swine of a job.  When I had the box on the Breva apart I am about 100% sure that the main seal could be prised out without needing to deconstruct the whole box.  If the drip is that significant I would suspect the main seal.  I would do the oil seal on the push rod at the same time. Ya gotta work from the back in ::) ::)  Whole box has to come off to do the main seal.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2015, 07:31:34 AM »
I have the workshop manual but with the exploded views and such it's hard to see exactly where the seals placements are. There's a "main" and a "pushrod". Can you tell me exactly where those are on the casing (I'm assuming they're on the casing?).
I'm not certain this drip is more significant than last year. It took several hundred miles (and weeks) to begin again this year. It sat last week because of the weather and I saw no signs when I covered it up for the week. When I uncovered it and pulled it out I saw a very small few drops mark on the floor. Maybe I try the dyno oil thing and ride her and see what happens. Yes I'd hate to have to replace the new clutch plates at worst but they seem pretty protected. Best case I maintain a slight leak, worst case I tear it down because it gets worse. Nothing should go BOOM. A slight bit disappointing is all since it's just been done.
Thanks all.
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2015, 05:28:22 PM »
Kev, a bit of background.  Some time ago myself, NolaGuzzi and Nick Webb all had gearbox troubles. nick and Nola had pre-selector problems, mine shed the hardening on 5th on a longish sort of trip.  We found that Senor Whitegloves on the official Guzzi site on how to take things apart used a technique that did not work (because Guzzi quietly rectified a fault with the pre-selector and kept it quiet).

The three of us worked our way around the problems that Guzzi don't mention and Nick wrote a very informative, and very humorous real-world thing on how to get the box apart, and how to put it back together.

This can be found on Greg Bender's site "This Old Tractor" under 'Breva 750 Gearbox Repair'. Plenty of photos etc.

The main seal is situated behind the casting that mates to the gearbox case.  The most difficult thing is how to undo the large nut on the front of the transfer shaft.  Steamdriven and myself fabricated a splined spanner with a 600mm long handle to hold the shaft that goes in to the clutch, from a burnt out clutch sent by Pete R. Cut the centre from the clutch and there is the basis of your spanner.   The handle is demountable so that it can be sent to Oz if Pete ever needs one. Also, a spanner welded to a handle that actually fits the nut,  and another large piece of steel with a couple of holes that match the holes on the front of that casting that attaches to the gearbox.  that nut is, we have found, usually torqued to 10 zillion foot/pounds. ::)  I think there are actually two pushrod seals, one behind the Thorington bearing that the clutch throw-out lever works on, and one in the front of the box.

Other than that, it's all easy. ;) :-\
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2015, 05:47:04 PM »
Thanks for that, Muzz.. ;-T That will make life much easier when I dig into the Aero Lario's box after I blow it up..  ;D
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Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2015, 06:37:53 PM »
Kevin,
You say you're running Redline. Before panicking -- and taking the bike apart -- try 85/140 dino oil (as recommended in Guzziology). That worked for me after the Monza still leaked with new seals. For whatever reasons, some seals leak and some don't. Better than porous castings, I suppose…
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2015, 06:52:01 PM »
I used Mobil 1 in my Chevy Vega for a few thousand miles.  That stuff found its way past every gasket and seal it could.  When I changed to fossil oil the leaks stopped.  It's entirely believable that getting rid of the synthetic oil will help or cure the problem.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 06:53:41 PM by Triple Jim »
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2015, 11:10:30 AM »
Kev, a bit of background.  Some time ago myself, NolaGuzzi and Nick Webb all had gearbox troubles. nick and Nola had pre-selector problems, mine shed the hardening on 5th on a longish sort of trip.  We found that Senor Whitegloves on the official Guzzi site on how to take things apart used a technique that did not work (because Guzzi quietly rectified a fault with the pre-selector and kept it quiet).

The three of us worked our way around the problems that Guzzi don't mention and Nick wrote a very informative, and very humorous real-world thing on how to get the box apart, and how to put it back together.

This can be found on Greg Bender's site "This Old Tractor" under 'Breva 750 Gearbox Repair'. Plenty of photos etc.

The main seal is situated behind the casting that mates to the gearbox case.  The most difficult thing is how to undo the large nut on the front of the transfer shaft.  Steamdriven and myself fabricated a splined spanner with a 600mm long handle to hold the shaft that goes in to the clutch, from a burnt out clutch sent by Pete R. Cut the centre from the clutch and there is the basis of your spanner.   The handle is demountable so that it can be sent to Oz if Pete ever needs one. Also, a spanner welded to a handle that actually fits the nut,  and another large piece of steel with a couple of holes that match the holes on the front of that casting that attaches to the gearbox.  that nut is, we have found, usually torqued to 10 zillion foot/pounds. ::)  I think there are actually two pushrod seals, one behind the Thorington bearing that the clutch throw-out lever works on, and one in the front of the box.

Other than that, it's all easy. ;) :-\

Let me get this straight.  You're saying there is NO need to disconnect the bell from the tranny to get the main seal off/on?  I would love to be able to pull that PITA nut off and have access to the seal.  Please tell me I'm right?   :-\  If that nut is a nutter, I may have to borrow a tool or two to break it. ;)  :'(
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 02:08:58 PM »
Correct (if my memory serves me correctly).  However, the nutter nut has to be removed and if you keep the bell attached to the tranny case you will have to extract the seal past that input shaft.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2015, 09:44:38 PM »
Have changed over to Valvoline Dino and taken some good rides. I don't think it's better but after sitting two days after a ride there's still not a drop that reaches the floor. It's on the rear of the sump as has always been the case but not enough to cause drops. It's been this way all along and last year dripped worse. So... I will continue to watch. What frightened me was finding WHERE it was coming from as I suspected the sump or bolts surrounding. Sometimes your eyes and sniffer don't work together. Tranny actually clicks  (I can hear it) into it's gears now in a more "positive" way with this Dino oil. Funny as I always thought Shockproof heavy was great. I like this better. Perhaps it's better meant for these older boxes.
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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2015, 10:49:27 PM »
I haven't done many smallblock boxes recently so I defer to Muzz and others who have more recent, and probably extensive, experience than me but I'd suggest if you are having to take the gearbox out for any reason it's worth taking it to bits and re-sealing it completely. Why? Because you can pretty much gaurantee that if you don't something else will start leaking when you put it back into service if you don't!  ::)

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Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2015, 10:54:44 PM »
Especially replace the clutch pushrod seal. Simple job but do note how the existing one is inserted. I didn't replace it when rebuilding the Monza box after it blew up. The good news is that every time you take a Guzzi apart, the job gets easier…
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2015, 12:20:39 AM »
The good news is that every time you take a Guzzi apart, the job gets easier…
cr


 :+1 on that. having had the gearbox out twice..... ::)
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2015, 12:26:55 AM »
Just a thought Kev, if your box is like the Breva there is a small rectangular slot that is at the bottom and between the motor and the bellhousing.  An escape hatch for oil either from the box or the motor.  Air currents can swirl it all over the place while running but on standstill proceeds to drop it at the same spot.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Gear oil in bell housing
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2015, 12:17:26 PM »
May still tear into it, yes.  If so, everything will be addressed.  Muzz, that is precisely where the oil is coming down from, thanks.  I didn't realize it's an open hatch of sorts.  I'm not one that likes to live with things not being right, but my immediate concern has been lessened from what you folks have said concerning amounts.  It's small but concerning.
Thanks. 
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