V11 Sport Shifting Issues

[Moto Fugazzi]

My 2004 V11 Cafe Sport has been having some shifting issues, as of late. Here's the main issue.
After riding on the highway for a while, I'll take the exit ramp, pull in the clutch lever, down shift, and sometimes the shift pedal will stay all of the way down until I release the clutch lever and then it pops back up.

I also noticed that my clutch plates don't always rattle when I let the clutch out while the bike is idling. Half the time the tranny is dead quiet when I let out the clutch, and the other half of the time, it makes the normal rattle associated with a dry clutch.

If I adjust the clutch lever (numbers 1-4 on the lever), the bike doesn't shift properly in the #1 position (lever is closest to the hand grips there). Obviously, it's not engaging/disengaging properly. In #4 setting, the bike shifts well, but the clutch doesn't engage until the lever is almost all of the way out. #2&3 are ok at best. Comparing to my old 2001 V11S, the clutch used to engage when the lever was much closer to the hand grips.

I cleaned and lubed all of the linkage, bled the system, and even changed the clutch m/c in hopes that the issue was a bad seal inside the m/c.

When I bought the bike in May, it was sitting for a few years, and covered in crud (some mildew in places as well). Maybe there's crud inside the bell housing?

Anybody ever have this experience, or have any idea or solution?
Ken

[Murray]

Has the clutch had a flush and bleed in recent memory? Dim dark memory says there was an issue with gearbox return springs on some V11's the good news is you don't have to remove the gearbox from the bike to do it, maybe have a look at the V11 Lemans forum.

[dsrdave]

Yes, the spring can be an issue but it usually breaks so it's not a sometimes type of problem.  I had a similar issue with my 2001 V11 sport.  After an hour long ride in HEAVY rain I parked the bike and didn't ride again for a few days and the problem showed up then.  I believe (but not sure) that a bit of rust started on the clutch splines causing the discs' to hang up every now and then.  I just continued to ride the bike and after a couple days if was fine and I've had no issues again.

[MotoG5]

I had the same shift lever issue with my 02' V11S. I had the bike from new up until 12' when I sold it. It would only happen occasionally and never got any worse. As the return spring was easy to access I never did anything about it. I work with the present owner and he hasn't worried about it either. Clutch rattle on it was intermittent as well. Some times loud and noticeable, other times quiet. As long as it was working I didn't worry about it. I never messed with the clutch engagement as it never changed over the years. Just did the semi-annual fluid flush.   

[Chuck in Indiana]

Has the clutch had a flush and bleed in recent memory? Dim dark memory says there was an issue with gearbox return springs on some V11's the good news is you don't have to remove the gearbox from the bike to do it, maybe have a look at the V11 Lemans forum.

Gotta read the thread, Murray..  he said he'd changed out the master. For sure, everything has been bled.

I cleaned and lubed all of the linkage, bled the system, and even changed the clutch m/c in hopes that the issue was a bad seal inside the m/c.

It's *not* the return spring. Those either work or break. For what it's worth.. both of my V11s did/do it very occasionally. Sometimes I can feel the lever stick and pop back up after a downshift. Yeah, I've done everything you've done. I put Redline shockproof in the Mighty Scura, and it *almost* quit. It has happened very irregularly since. I'm careful not to just stomp on the pedal when downshifting, though, so it just might be a learned technique. <shrug>

[DARKHORSE]

My 04 Bilabio does the same thing you describe with the shifter sticking. I modified my downshifting by braking a bit more to slow the bike and finish the downshift when the revs drop. Seems to work for me.

[lucky phil]

Gotta read the thread, Murray..  he said he'd changed out the master. For sure, everything has been bled.
It's *not* the return spring. Those either work or break. For what it's worth.. both of my V11s did/do it very occasionally. Sometimes I can feel the lever stick and pop back up after a downshift. Yeah, I've done everything you've done. I put Redline shockproof in the Mighty Scura, and it *almost* quit. It has happened very irregularly since. I'm careful not to just stomp on the pedal when downshifting, though, so it just might be a learned technique. <shrug>

Im just in the middle of a full rework of the V11 shifting system. My bike will tap me on the toe or boot sole occasionally as well. I have a spare gearbox here and have reworked the shifting assy but I obviously cant tell  you the result in operation. I am about to do the same mods to the unit fitted to my bike.
Here is what I found with the spare.
Detent roller not  sitting in the detent cam correctly. reworked the arm to correct.
Shift arm not straight. have  seen this before. easy to correct.
Shift arm ramps ( these are the ramps that slide over the shifter wheel pins on lever return) have a very corse/poor surface. Filed mine smooth and debured. This is certainly an issue for the return  problem.
My gearbox had the  16mm shift arm boss but the 17mm return spring ID so no issues there.
The shifter eccentric is a very touchy adjustment and in my view shouldnt be adjusted on the bike but on the bench. Its quite criticle.
The spare unit also has slight overshift in the mechanism in both directions that cant be adjusted out. Not sure if its a real issue that affects shifting or not. I'll have to check the dog engagement to find out that one. If it is then a little weld on the stop and filing is in order.
Its a system that I believe has marginal return force issues and  if all the components are good ones then it will be ok, but if not it will act up occasionally.
I am going to straighten and polish all the bits in the operational box and am considering some mods to increase the return and detenting spring forces a little. Nothing to extreme just what can easily be achieved.
The other issue with this box is a long lever travel and a light action.
I have just modded the arm on the shift lever to add 12mm to its length, this increases the shifter force slightly and reduces the travel from 30mm to around 24mm in line with a Suzuki and Ducati shift travel. It also gives the return spring more leaverage on the lever on the return which should help. I have also added a Guzzitech folding toe assy which drops the toe arm around 10mm as Ive always felt the lever is too high but it fowls the pork chop if you go any lower.
I have also machined up some new bushes for the lever and installed them and filled the lever pivot bolt threads with bronze weld and turned it back where they interface with the inner lever bush. This is really an engineering disgrace bu Guzzi having the inner bush riding on the bolt threads.
I'll let you know the outcome.

Ciao

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks for that, Phil. Some things to check if it gets bothersome..

[Moto Fugazzi]

Thanks Phil! Let us know the outcome. I did plan on opening things up and replacing the shifter spring soon and adjusting the eccentric. I'll clean things up in there as well.
If you happen to take pics of what you're doing in there, it would be greatly appreciated!
Ken

[lucky phil]

Thanks Phil! Let us know the outcome. I did plan on opening things up and replacing the shifter spring soon and adjusting the eccentric. I'll clean things up in there as well.
If you happen to take pics of what you're doing in there, it would be greatly appreciated!
Ken

Will do. Finished off the fettling of the in service box today, just need to reassemble and test. I'm also going to replace the linkage rod ends with something of higher quality that i have on hand. Never been a fan of those narrow std ones.
Ciao

[JBBenson]

To make the V11 tranny shift like butter, fill it with Red Line 58204 Heavy ShockProof Gear Oil.

All notchiness gone, solid engagement, smooth shifting. Really great stuff.

[nobleswood]

Phil,

I'll second the motion asking for some pictures, if you have them. Particularly the shifting mechanism mods.

[Murray]

To make the V11 tranny shift like butter, fill it with Red Line 58204 Heavy ShockProof Gear Oil.

All notchiness gone, solid engagement, smooth shifting. Really great stuff.

I have some snake oil for sale :P

[Tom]

Im just in the middle of a full rework of the V11 shifting system. My bike will tap me on the toe or boot sole occasionally as well. I have a spare gearbox here and have reworked the shifting assy but I obviously cant tell  you the result in operation. I am about to do the same mods to the unit fitted to my bike.
Here is what I found with the spare.
Detent roller not  sitting in the detent cam correctly. reworked the arm to correct.
Shift arm not straight. have  seen this before. easy to correct.

Shift arm ramps ( these are the ramps that slide over the shifter wheel pins on lever return) have a very corse/poor surface. Filed mine smooth and debured. This is certainly an issue for the return  problem.
My gearbox had the  16mm shift arm boss but the 17mm return spring ID so no issues there.
The shifter eccentric is a very touchy adjustment and in my view shouldnt be adjusted on the bike but on the bench. Its quite criticle.

The spare unit also has slight overshift in the mechanism in both directions that cant be adjusted out. Not sure if its a real issue that affects shifting or not. I'll have to check the dog engagement to find out that one. If it is then a little weld on the stop and filing is in order.

Its a system that I believe has marginal return force issues and  if all the components are good ones then it will be ok, but if not it will act up occasionally.
I am going to straighten and polish all the bits in the operational box and am considering some mods to increase the return and detenting spring forces a little. Nothing to extreme just what can easily be achieved.

The other issue with this box is a long lever travel and a light action.
I have just modded the arm on the shift lever to add 12mm to its length, this increases the shifter force slightly and reduces the travel from 30mm to around 24mm in line with a Suzuki and Ducati shift travel. It also gives the return spring more leaverage on the lever on the return which should help. I have also added a Guzzitech folding toe assy which drops the toe arm around 10mm as Ive always felt the lever is too high but it fowls the pork chop if you go any lower.
 
I have also machined up some new bushes for the lever and installed them and filled the lever pivot bolt threads with bronze weld and turned it back where they interface with the inner lever bush. This is really an engineering disgrace bu Guzzi having the inner bush riding on the bolt threads.
I'll let you know the outcome.

Ciao

I made it easier to read.

[lucky phil]

I made it easier to read.

Thanks Tom, I was in a bit of a rush.
Ciao

[lucky phil]

Ok some photos. This is the detent roller that on both my units was sitting around 2mm high in the cam. Remove the detent arm and bend until the roller sits in the detents at the correct height.

 
Here is the adjustable shift lever stop in its relaxed position. Some units have a non adjustable roll pin instead which makes disassembly harder. I adjusted to a gap of 0.035" at its closest while  operating.
I'll post the rest tomorrow after the test ride and now I've figured out this photo posting thing.


Ok so here is a view of the shifter arm ramps. These ride on the selector drum pins when the lever resets and on the  3 units I have all have had poor surface finishes and evidence of the selector pins bearing on the edge of the ramps and not the full face. I have draw filed these to give a nice finish and then applied some bearing blue and run the shift mechanism and once again filed so the full width of the ramps bears against the pins.
The arm has been straightened in these shots but all three I have were curved due to the stamped out manufacturing process. The arm has also been debured,checked for twist and polished top and bottom.



Ciao

[lucky phil]

Here is a shot of the shifter input arm and stop assy. The area you can see that has been reworked is where the selector arm spring bears and the poor finish and square edge stresses the spring. The input arm spring you see in the shot also can be installed up side down which causes it to bear agains a land on the inside of the cover and create friction which wont help the return action.

The complete unit on the bench ready to refit. The main excentric adjuster is super critical and and very fussy to get right. Dont attempt it on the bike,just asking for trouble. I adjusted it to give an equal amount of over shift in both directions. I dont think the slight overshift will be an issue if its just slight in both directions but if the main eccentric is out of adjustment then you end up with a lot one way and hitting the stop the other. This is when I think it may be a problem and it doest take much turn on the adjuster to cause that issue. A few degrees either way and you have a problem. This is the update kit assembly with the extra banana support plate and adjustable shift arm eccentric over travel stop. When I originally did the update mod I adjusted the main stop eccentric to place the shifter arm an equal distance to the shift selector drum pins but I didnt realise that this gave a considerable level of overshift in one direction and nothing the other way. This time I've adjusted it differently as stated.
I also didnt look too much at the detail when I did the update mod which was a mistake as I can now see a lot of basic quality issues which I  am now addressing.
This box has the 15mm shifter arm boss and 17mm ID spring but the spare box has the 16mm boss. The larger boss isnt an issue with the 17mm spring as the arm  has to move way further than it can possibly do in service before the spring gets bound on the boss. A 16mm boss and a 16mm ID spring would be an issue though as many have found. 


Here is the Todd Eagan folding toe lever and my additional extension to the shifter arm and better quality rod end fittings and new shifter rod. Being long of leg I  have  always needed the lever further down but was unable to get that  due to  the shifter hitting the side plate. This has cured that. The arm extension is a little Heath Robinson but its just a "proof of concept" thing and when I am satisfied its the correct length I'll weld on the extension.
So fill the box with Redline and test ride tomorrow. I'll report back and hopefully I've made some improvement.
Ciao

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks for that, Phil. Saved for future reference.

[lucky phil]

Well I did an evaluation ride today and I can report a positive result. I obviously cant tell you the value of each item I addressed but here is what I found.
The shift action is much tighter and more positive now and thats mainly down to the longer shifter arm and better toe peg positioning.
The shift action is noticeably shorter and heavier which is a good thing.
I have a theory that if the shift action is too light it leads to missed shifts especially when fatigued or not concentration. Reducing the leaverage means a heavier action and a need to apply more foot pressure  before the shifter moves. This means that when it does release from the detent your foot has a greater tendency to follow through and complete the shift properly. This is evedent when you preload the leaver which gives a cleaner shift. the majority of my shift fopars on the Guzzi is when I'm fatigued or not concentrating on the shift and tend to stab at the lever or am not deliberate enough. The heavier action helps with this so you get a little more latitude with regard to the lever preload.
The reduced travel which is now like a japanese bike also means less ankle movement and combined with the lower shifter peg height means shifting up and down is now a lot more comfortable.
After playing with the Guzzi box and shifter it supports the opinion of many that it does require a more deliberate action than say a Ducati or Japanese gearbox. This is obvious when you look  at the shifter mechanism and the "dead space" between the detents. On a Ducati shift drum the detenting cam looks like a star outline with the corresponding spring loaded roller. When the roller reaches the top of the depression its either going back into the same gear or the detent spring and roller is going to drive it to the next one. Its either one or the other with no "dead space" between.
The Guzzi in comparison has a mile of dead space and its easy to pause the shift action between detents. So you  need to drive the shifter through this dead zone with your foot because the detent roller and cam wont help you out as it does with a Ducati system for example. This is the nature of the design and what you have to live with. 

So there you have it for what its worth. For me the extension of the shifter arm to add another hole 12mm (centre to centre) from the upper hole is well worth the effort as is the Todd Eagan toe peg mod. I always wear size 46 road race boots when riding so they are not overly big and heavy just for reference.
I still believe its a marginal  system with regard to detenting and spring return pressure and the next time I have it apart I'll add a 2mm wall thickness sleeve to the shifter input cam spring post ( the main accentric post) to give the hairpin return spring a little more preload and add a little pad to the detent arm where the spring engages do the same there.
I also think better shift link rod ends are worth the effort as those narrow std ones are a little high on friction.   
Ciao           

[Moto Fugazzi]

Thanks Phil! I wouldn't have thought of doing any of that on my own.
Ken

Out of curiosity, where does your clutch start engaging as you release the clutch lever? Mine starts near the end as I release the lever.

[lucky phil]

Thanks Phil! I wouldn't have thought of doing any of that on my own.
Ken

Out of curiosity, where does your clutch start engaging as you release the clutch lever? Mine starts near the end as I release the lever.

About 3/4 of the way out I guess maybe a little more with mine. About what I would expect from a clutch with 40000klms on it.
As the clutch wears the take up or engagement point moves more towards the lever fully released position of course until eventually the clutch starts slipping under load when fully engaged.
Ciao

[Kiwi_Roy]

The clutch is hydraulic, wouldn't it just take up the slack similar to hydraulic brakes.
BTW my V11 Sport has the nicest gearbox of any bike I have ridden.

[lucky phil]

The clutch is hydraulic, wouldn't it just take up the slack similar to hydraulic brakes.
BTW my V11 Sport has the nicest gearbox of any bike I have ridden.

No Roy its not about the automatic compensation for the changing freeplay that hydraulically actuated systems give but the changing relationship between the clutch pressure plate and its travel and the friction plate thickness. As the clutch friction plate wears and its thickness reduce 2 things change. The freeplay between the thrust bearing or actuating rod and the pressure plate spring or actauating fingers depending on the application, and the relationship between the actuating range of the pressure plate to the thickness of the friction plate.
The hydraulic system can auto compensate for the former but not the latter. In other words as the thickness of the friction plate reduces its relationship to the amount of actual linier travel of the pressure plate/s changes and so the point of "take up".
So no  matter what the actuating system the take up point will gradually move towards the fully engaged end of the travel as it wears.
Assuming you dont ride any modern bikes (and you may) looking at the list of bikes you own I'm not surprised the V11 is the sweetest you have used but by modern standards its a bit agricultural.
Its not a bad unit but its light years away from a modern sports bike. The best modern bikes require zero attention to shifting technique and just shift without fuss or any conscious thought process. Hit the  lever however you like and it just shifts without fuss. Perfect when you are at the end of a long day in the saddle and a little weary or on the track when you need to focus on other things beside getting a clean shift ( especially a down shift) Running into turn 1 at Phillip Island at well over 220kph in a faulse neutral after missing a downshift is not only frightening but dangerous.
Its like most modern things, brakes,suspension,tires they are all so much better than they were even 10 years ago that the average ride only has to think about the important stuff like line and entry speed etc and not compensating for ordinary suspension, brakes gearshifing etc. 
Ciao     

[nobleswood]

Thanks Phil,

Your write up really added to my knowledge of the gearbox internals.

Tim

[lucky phil]

Finalised the shifter arm modification today.



Also the rear brake lever folding peg to match the shifter.

Ciao

Update...modified the shifter input assy today so the shifter doesn't over travel. Added weld pads to the stop area and set the eccentric to the mid position and filed the stops until the mechanism shifted the gears without any over travel. Also checked the shifter fork return face contact on the pins to ensure full engagement with engineers blue. Photos show the welded pads on the stops which added maybe 1mm to the shifter input crank stop faces and the shift fork reset face.
I can't actually test this selecter assy i'm afraid as its the one on my spare box but I have put more miles the modified unit on my bike and can report the shifting is brilliant. The extended arm on the shift lever is the major benifit with a shorter throw and more leverage for the return spring.

   






Ciao

[Moto Fugazzi]

I think  found the culprit tonight. A part of the shift lever assembly was hitting against a bolt head attached to the tranny. I'm not sure if the bolt head is attached to anything important, or if it's just part of the cover. Anyway, I moved the shift arm lever at the tranny, and all seems well so far.
Here's a video of what was happening:
Ken

[Tom]

More a linkage problem.  Good to hear that you found the culprit.

Phil.  Great info.

[Chuck in Indiana]

More a linkage problem.  Good to hear that you found the culprit.

Phil.  Great info.

What Tom says. The linkage problem *isn't* what most are seeing. Phil is on top of it, I think.
That said, mine is so occasional and never a problem that I'll just stick my head in the sand until it *is* a problem.