Author Topic: v7 struggles  (Read 10524 times)

Starbuck109

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v7 struggles
« on: June 17, 2016, 10:50:47 AM »
Hi Wildguzzi,

Looking for some of your opinions here as surely there is a lot of experience with bikes and dealers etc. on this forum. I don't want to throw BK vespa under the bus, but I want to make sure there isn't something I or they should be doing that we aren't... The problems with my 2015 v7 which I bought new last year started very early on, before the first service. It is my first real bike that I have had, other than an old 81 twinstar I used briefly to get the mechanics of shifting etc down. Now, I'm not a mechanic by any means, and I've heard motorcycles just don't last as long as a car would, but this has just under 5K miles and has been towed twice. I'll have to go into some detail for the first issue, as I think there may be residual issues from the overheating.

The first incident was because the clutch couldn't disengage the gears and go into neutral. I'm assuming the cable stretched to the point it couldn't do it anymore. I noticed that I had to pull more and more to get the bike into neutral leading up to the even, before it eventually couldn't disengage the gear at all. I was suspicious during this time so I called the shop and asked them about it, and they said it would be okay until the first maintenance. Obviously I should have brought the bike into the shop, because it wasn't okay. Sitting in heavy traffic one night, waiting to go onto the highway in manhattan, the bike just started to pull when I was pulling in the clutch. I had to use the break to hold it, similar to how an automatic car would do. I learned quickly this was very very bad. The bike got hotter and hotter and shut down. Trying to get to the side of the road was difficult because I couldn't put the bike in neutral. I had to turn in on for seconds at a time, and go a few feet before it would overheat again, and turn off. I repeated until I made it to the curb. I had it towed and basically there was a dead cylinder at this point. One of the wires had actually melted. This headers have been very colorful since that night, and there is even a bit of color on the muffler itself. Fortunately for me the tow and repairs were all covered by warranty. The staff was not rude and they repaired it with few questions. When I picked it up everything seemed to working great.

The second issue is pretty straightforward. The starter stopped working. Fortunately on a road trip a stranger a bit more mechanically savvy showed me that if I kick the starter when pressing the ignition, it would work. Now I had read about character of these bikes, but kicking it on the side like a horse was something I didn't expect. Kind of fun, but didn't want to pay for a new one in a year when it prematurely went. Was replaced under warranty no problems.

Third event was this grinding noise I noticed on idle. It wasn't too loud but I was able to determine it was coming from behind the left block, inside the engine. I decided I would bring it to the shop right after work incase it stopped doing it. I rode to work no problem, and it was such a beautiful morning too, I was really enjoying to guzzi. Then after work I started it up, rode about 30 feet and it pooped out... Okay, so I try again and it goes far enough to get me onto the next block, then stalls again. So I wait a second and turn it back on, it says "Maint" and wont start. So it had to be towed. So far its been over a week and I haven't heard anything. I called them 3 days ago and they said they needed more "notes" on what had actually happened, and that the particular mechanic who was working on it was at lunch at the time. IDK what the heck that means or if they even know what is wrong at this point.

Thank you for taking the time to read the saga of my guzzi. It has been lots of fun when it's been working. Love the adventure rides I can take it on. Can't say I regret it as I think it is a great thing to have for function and fun in the city, but I'm worried about it's longevity. Is it a lemon? Was it my fault for not knowing to put my foot down earlier and bring the bike in for service of the clutch? Or is there no way the clutch should have done that within the first 350 miles......ehhhhhhh ..... oh boy. The dealer btw is BK vespa. They actually have been very polite about everything when I speak to them, but as this fairly cool Summer is starting I need a 3rd party opinion on this. Thanks for the input everyone.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2016, 12:23:39 PM »
Sounds like the bike is getting way too hot. They do have a limit, it's air cooled. You could ask to see if you have the latest FI map. The clutch stuff is normal cable stretching. Starters are Chinese good luck w/that.
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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2016, 12:31:34 PM »
These bikes CAN be a little difficult to get into neutral when they are breaking in, but I also have found a number of these bikes whose clutches were not set-up properly at the dealer and that makes them harder to get into neutral. And if the cable gets damaged or stretches (and heat can certainly cause or contribute to that) the problem would only get worse. It sounds like you had a minor issue with it that got worse an worse without you realizing.

Other than that the rest does not sound typical, and at a guess I would think it isn't the dealer's fault (except that perhaps it IS possible they could have set up the clutch adjustment better, but even then it shouldn't have gotten as bad you described unless you were really idling it WAY TOO long in excessive heat).

If I were to draw any conclusions from the story it is that some damage is/was done by severely overheating it the first time and the other problems may indeed be a result of that.

And IF that is true, be thankful the dealer is still fixing it under warranty as overheating it and abusing it the way you describe is arguably enough excuse for them to invalidate the warranty.

That said, hindsight being 20/20, perhaps you should have brought it back to them when you were first having problems finding neutral.

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Offline vstevens

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 01:49:20 PM »
Starbuck109, hang in there with the V7.  It is a very durable machine, pleasure to ride and simple enough to take care of.  That being said, I've read of instances of poor setup from the start..  spark plug wires and clutch cables routed next to cylinder heads... and the resulting problems. 

Once you can, look carefully at the cables and wires routed between the cylinders, position them safely away from them.  Check the battery connections (located behind the right side-cover).  Make sure you have a good connection by removing, inspecting for corrosion, and reconnecting them.  A cursory look or feel may miss poorly seated wire connectors.  Poor battery connections can affect all the electronics including the computer controlled fuel and air mixtures. 

My pipes are quite blue, I think it's a normal thing with the V7.  Finding Neutral gets easier as well, my tranny was a bit rough at first, but has smoothed out somewhat.

I'm not a mechanic by any stretch. But the V7 has 'taught' me a couple things to look for.

All the best.  :laugh:
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:54:53 PM by vstevens »

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2016, 01:49:20 PM »

Offline rocker59

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2016, 02:08:12 PM »
Hi Wildguzzi,

Looking for some of your opinions here 

The first incident...  the clutch couldn't disengage the gears and go into neutral.

The second issue..  The starter stopped working.   Was replaced under warranty no problems.

Third event...   this grinding noise I noticed on idle. 

1) It sounds like you need to learn basic clutch cable adjustment.  It's easy.

2) It happens.  I've not heard of a new starter dying on one of these bikes, but they're machines and can fail.

3) I have no idea.  Could be anything.  Or nothing.
Michael T.
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Offline pikipiki

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2016, 02:08:44 PM »
it should be possible to adjust the clutch on the leaver, under the rubber, very easy no tools required, couple of minutes. its normal to have to adjust quite regularly.
If there's not enough adjustment on the lever, larger adjustments are possible at the gearbox end of the cable but the garage should have adjusted that to allow you enough adjustment at the leaver to get you between service intervals.

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2016, 02:37:50 PM »
it should be possible to adjust the clutch on the leaver, under the rubber, very easy no tools required, couple of minutes. its normal to have to adjust quite regularly.

Is that your experience?

Man that would scare me.

If the cable isn't stretching and the clutch assembly isn't wearing, then WHY would I have to adjust that?

I check the freeplay from time-to-time, including any services, but I've NEVER had to adjust it after initial setup on the V7 (granted only 11k miles later) or my Jackal (which I had for what, 35k miles).

<shrugs>
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Offline rocker59

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2016, 02:50:14 PM »
Is that your experience?

Man that would scare me.
 

I adjusted mine when the bike was new.  The dealer had not done it.  Probably hadn't even road tested it prior to me hauling it home. 

Now, at 2500 miles, it needs a little adjustment.  A little too much freeplay on the lever.

No biggie.  Takes a couple minutes to accomplish.
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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 02:57:25 PM »
I adjusted mine when the bike was new.  The dealer had not done it.  Probably hadn't even road tested it prior to me hauling it home. 

Now, at 2500 miles, it needs a little adjustment.  A little too much freeplay on the lever.

No biggie.  Takes a couple minutes to accomplish.

I'm just thinking back through all the bikes I've owned. The only ones with cables that I adjusted regularly were my Harleys, and I just did that because it was a 2 step process which involved taking the cable out of adjustment, resetting the clutch assembly ramp screw, then adjusting the cable again when you were done. But come to think of it, I don't recall the lever being noticeably out of play when I started those procedures either - whether it was 5k, 35k, 65k miles.

I do think the OEM spec for freeplay is a little off on the smallblocks, and as I said, I had to adjust mine right away (and other demo bikes I've ridden from that and other dealers).

I know it's dead simple and only takes a few seconds.

But again, unless your cable is constantly stretching by > 1mm over a couple of thousand miles, or WORSE the clutch disc is wearing by that amount, you shouldn't HAVE TO CHANGE THAT SETTING SO OFTEN. Which is really the only thing I'm questioning.
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Offline pikipiki

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 03:28:27 PM »
I'm just thinking back through all the bikes I've owned. The only ones with cables that I adjusted regularly were my Harleys, and I just did that because it was a 2 step process which involved taking the cable out of adjustment, resetting the clutch assembly ramp screw, then adjusting the cable again when you were done. But come to think of it, I don't recall the lever being noticeably out of play when I started those procedures either - whether it was 5k, 35k, 65k miles.

I do think the OEM spec for freeplay is a little off on the smallblocks, and as I said, I had to adjust mine right away (and other demo bikes I've ridden from that and other dealers).

I know it's dead simple and only takes a few seconds.

But again, unless your cable is constantly stretching by > 1mm over a couple of thousand miles, or WORSE the clutch disc is wearing by that amount, you shouldn't HAVE TO CHANGE THAT SETTING SO OFTEN. Which is really the only thing I'm questioning.

I just thought when you sense its a little tough to engage neutral you back it off about 3/4 a turn, ok for 1000miles or so, maybe I should make bigger adjustments. I would with a new cable.

Starbuck109

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 04:28:15 PM »
Thanks for the feedback . Sounds like a little more experience would have gone a long way in the beginning... And I called and got an update from the dealer. They say that it wouldn't start due to a faulty RPM sensor and the rattling was an exhaust head that was loose. Hope that was all it was. It sounded like real grinding to me the morning of. They say that when I come in we can talk about replacing parts on the exhaust under warranty that were discolored due to the initial overheating. I'm not that concerned about the mufflers because I plan on replacing them at some point anyways. Would the headers excessive bluing be anything other than an aesthetic concern? I plan on wrapping them at some point, so appearance wouldn't be a huge concern on that particular item.

Offline davedel44

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 05:49:34 PM »
Blue is beautiful baby.  Every new v7 I've seen has blued pipes. Normal. 
People will think that you rode it like you stole it!

Hope you get it sorted as the single throttle body V7s are a joy to own.
As you gain some experience, you'll be able to determine what behavior and noises are normal. 

Find some Gusisti to ride with, they'll help you learn the marque.
Try to make a rally.  You'll learn a lot in a weekend.

Welcome to the forum and the world of Guzzi
Good luck and ride safely,

Dave
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« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 06:08:05 PM by davedel44 »
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 06:40:26 PM »
  They say that when I come in we can talk about replacing parts on the exhaust under warranty that were discolored due to the initial overheating. 
that sounds pretty generous for the dealer to say that..
I wouldn't be too concerned with the pipes but was anything internal harmed with that high temp running? did they change the oil?
 and look it over well for anything else that could have melted..
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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2016, 12:30:45 PM »
Man, that reminds me, the exhaust header nuts should be checked from time to time on these as they do tend to loosen sometimes from vibration.

Thanks for the reminder.
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Offline Muzz

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2016, 07:55:17 PM »
As per previous posts, sounds like clutch is just original set-up. There are other adjustment points on it as well as at the lever. I do not have adjustable levers, and I do have very short fingers. I had to put a spacer under the lever stop to move the lever closer to the bar simply so that I could reach it. Consequently, my adjustment range is VERY small. In spite of that, I do not have to tweak the adjustment very often at all and the bike goes into neutral and first no trouble at all. I just check that I do have some free play at the lever. I do knock it in to neutral at the lights to avoid heat buildup in the clutch and to give the throwout bearing at the back of the gearbox a bit of a break.

Starter; sh*t happens. My starter on the Breva started acting up after 7 years. I thought it was the battery; it wasn't. A metal shroud inside it came loose and was contacting the windings and shorting them out. Threw the thing away and put it back together; still works. May just have to clean it out a bit more often.

With the grinding, could well be the exhaust nuts. Sounds as though your dealer has it in hand. The clutch is quite noisy on idle with the clutch let out. It is a dry plate clutch like a car. If you think a Guzzi is bad, listen to a Ducati!

Blue pipes = badge of honour. Why cover it? Also, I would want to get rid of as much heat as possible. The small blocks do run hot.

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Starbuck109

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2016, 02:04:36 PM »
Went for beautiful ride this am up and around the mountains. Was running great and had a great morning. Stopped to get some toll money at the sunoco and she wont start up! It says "class 3" on the display and turns off when i hit the ignition switch. The trick i learned previously about knocking the starter while hitting the switch doesnt do it today. At least I get some snacks  :popcorn: and a tan as i wait for my lift.

Offline guzziownr

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2016, 02:49:30 PM »
Went for beautiful ride this am up and around the mountains. Was running great and had a great morning.

Went for a ride with Starbuck this A.M.  It's a good looking bike.  Needs work on the reliability :laugh:
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Offline slowmover

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2016, 05:59:58 PM »
Give up on the blue pipes and you'll be so much happier.I went through many cans of Blue Job before these fellows convinced me of the error of my ways.They turned a mellow gold-blue and never got worse. Now I like the look.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 10:28:57 AM by slowmover »

Starbuck109

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2016, 06:22:31 PM »
Yep, lush green scenery with mountain roads are not far from the grid of nyc  :bike-037: It was a great ride. Fortunately some fellow bikers saved my butt from that tow and reset something in the computer by momentarily unhooking the battery.

Offline sib

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2016, 06:38:57 PM »
....It says "class 3" on the display and turns off when i hit the ignition switch....
Could you please elaborate?  I wasn't aware that the '15 V7 has any on-board diagnostics other than the check engine light.
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pete roper

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2016, 06:55:37 PM »
Sounds to me like it might be some sort of boot code that will occur when the battery is reconnected.

All in all it appears to me that this bike didn't get much if any sort of PD, just slap the battery in it, put a gallon of gas in the tank and push it out the door. Clean the battery terminals and apply some terminal protectant, (Vaseline is fine.) check the other end of the earth strap wherever that is on that model, can't remember, and make sure its clean and tight. Adjust the clutch properly, check the major fasteners, check the oils. Go ride

Offline guzziownr

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2016, 08:49:11 PM »
Yep, lush green scenery with mountain roads are not far from the grid of nyc  :bike-037: It was a great ride. Fortunately some fellow bikers saved my butt from that tow and reset something in the computer by momentarily unhooking the battery.

Next time you should stop by for a garage visit.  Some cleaning of the electrics is definitely called for.
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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2016, 02:00:33 AM »
Yeah, and there's no reason that a new starter should require a hit/kick. Either there's something wrong with the starter, or really jolting one of the battery cables allowing a connection that was just not quite right to connect enough to start the bike.
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Offline JProdun

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2016, 10:39:09 AM »
I'm not a mechanic by any means either and don't want you to have any additional negative feelings, but do know from experience that if a vehicle (a car in my sitution) has overheated, it could do some serious damage and a lot of things have to be checked before you can safely get back on the road...

Now, in regards to BK Vespa, where I also bought my bike about a year and a half ago, i find them competent enough. Not the fastest working dealership, but they seem to be knowing what they're doing (a big plus in my opinion) and are communicating fine as long as you're persistent. Gotta call them back all the time. Had warranty and some emergency repairs done there too.

Good luck!

P.S. Where in NYC are you at?

Starbuck109

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2016, 11:51:01 AM »
Could you please elaborate?  I wasn't aware that the '15 V7 has any on-board diagnostics other than the check engine light.

It was something that appeared temporarily after turning the keys... Then it would go to its regular screen showing the odometer. Wish i could elaborate more but idk what it means. Maybe ill ask the dealer cause something is still funky. Started this morning and then she stalled again... And again.

Offline sib

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2016, 02:39:48 PM »
It was something that appeared temporarily after turning the keys... Then it would go to its regular screen showing the odometer. Wish i could elaborate more but idk what it means. Maybe ill ask the dealer cause something is still funky. Started this morning and then she stalled again... And again.
As far as I know, the only alphanumeric indicator on this bike is the MAINT advisory that comes up on the odometer for a few seconds after the ignition is turned on, whenever the accumulated mileage gets to a multiple of 4660 mi (=7500 km; actually, it is supposed to come up very 6214 mi = 10,000 km, but that's another story).  Reset it by turning the ignition switch on and then off while holding in the left "A" button on the dash.
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Offline slopokes

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2016, 08:21:17 PM »
you boys passed me up at perkins--red b11--next time stop and say hello  :thewife:

Offline redhawk47

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2016, 01:54:39 PM »
Starbuck109 - what is the status of your V7?

I had an similar experience that could cause symptoms similar to your problems:

Apparently this is now a known problem.
I bought a V7II in August 2016. Took it in for first service in October. Told the shop manager that I had had to adjust the clutch at the engine end because there was not enough adjustment at the lever. He said "Oh, there are a couple of tests we will run".

Next day he called and said "I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that there was lots of metal in the engine oil. The good news is that you are getting a new engine, under warranty." Timing worked just right for me. I was headed out for a two week trip with a different motorcycle. Two days after I got home I picked up my V7 with a new engine. Great service from Moto Guzzi and my dealer, Moto Italia of Northern Colorado.
It is my understanding that a thrust washer was not installed on the crankshaft.

Dan
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Offline OlDogface

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2016, 05:26:37 PM »
Yeah, and there's no reason that a new starter should require a hit/kick. Either there's something wrong with the starter, or really jolting one of the battery cables allowing a connection that was just not quite right to connect enough to start the bike.

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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: v7 struggles
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 05:51:19 PM »
Fail to crank could be "Startus Interuptus", it's starting to show up in the V7s.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif

The easiest way to check is measure the Voltage at the starter solenoid spade connector, should be 11 or more Volts while trying to crank. The kick is just jarring it free.
Next time try cycling the ignition switch a few times.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 06:00:38 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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