Breva 1100 ECU disconnected

[tris]

I'll set the scene

Me and a mate did a 160 mile loop of the North Yorkshire Moors with the last 60 or so miles in rain and the bike didn't miss a beat.

Parked up for the night and it got rained on a bit more.

Came to start it this morning and it's dead.

Dash does its sweeps an test lights properly but even though the side stand is down and in neutral no lights except for the red triangle of death and the ECU disconnected icon.

No ecu or dash errors showing

I suspect water ingress somewhere but where do you suggest I start looking please

Cheers Tris

PS - the ride was great 

[pete roper]

Check the main earth from the ECU. If that is secure pull the ECU and check all the pins and pin blocks for water infiltration and rust.

[tris]

Cheers Pete

At the moment he's in disgrace in the garage after coming home in the breakdown waggon, but I'll get stuck in this week and see if I can find out what's going on.

[Huzo]

Cheers Pete

At the moment he's in disgrace in the garage after coming home in the breakdown waggon, but I'll get stuck in this week and see if I can find out what's going on.

Calling her a "he" within earshot, might not help your cause Tris..

[tris]

IT might get called a lot of other things if he/she doesn't respond in an appropriate manner 

The irony is though that the plan was that after this trip I was sending the dash off to the nice people at Carmo to hopefully fix the intermittent fault in the LCD .

That will have to wait now until I get him  running so I don't and another variable to the mix

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

checking, cleaning, and vaseline on the ground point sounds about right, deoxit on all the connections & look for water....  man that sucks, I hope the fix is that simple!

[beetle]

Of course, the dash may have gone completely tits-up, and is now no longer on talking terms with the ECU.

   

[tris]

Cruel - very cruel Beetle given our recent very helpful discussion 

However, given that the dash does all its sweeps and lights all the lights in the test phase correctly PLUS when it has a mind to it lights up the LCD which then shows all it should do via the buttons on the LH bar I'm hopeful that the dash isn't the cause of this problem   

That being said, in addition to Petes' suggestions I think I'll pull the plugs on the dash just to check whether there are any problems there

Time will tell

[tris]

I pulled the ECU and all the pins are clean and between the ECU body and the battery earth I get 0.1 Ohms resistance - so that looks OK

Also pulled the plug on the back of the clocks and those pins look OK too

No obvious signs of water in either location but I've left everything unplugged in case I just can't see it and this might give it a chance to dry out.

If this doesn't sort it I thought I'd stick the ECU and dash in the airing cupboard to dry.

Any issues with that plan and /or any better suggestions??

[Kiwi_Roy]

Is there any sign of fogging up in the dash if so I would get it in the airing cupboard ASAP

You said you got a message ECU disconnected, I wouldn't take that literally, it probably means it's not communicating which could happen if the lines were shorted by water.

[tris]

No fogging Roy but an excellent suggestion. I'm off to pull the dash and stash it in the airing cupboard

Cheers

[Gootsz]

there is one on US ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-BREVA-V1100-V11-06-ECU-ECM-CDI-IGNITION-MODULE-19K-MILES-/272607712286?hash=item3f78af941e:g:9IoAAOSwZ4dZI2Gr&vxp=mtr

micky

[Moto]

No fogging Roy but an excellent suggestion. I'm off to pull the dash and stash it in the airing cupboard

Cheers

Good plan. I hope you'll post the resolution of the problem, good or bad. Your report about the wiring is already a good data point. If drying it in the airing cabinet works I wouldn't delay sending it to Carmo or else opening it up for a trip to the cell phone shop for a coating. Good luck.

[tris]

Cheers Moto

I'm going to stay my excitement and leave it in the airing cupboard for another day to make sure 

Also I bought some Servisol contact cleaner at lunch time and that's going to get shot everywhere that needs it and left to fully evaporate

The probability is that it is the dash given the dousing it had, so if it connects to the ECU after that lot it'll go straight off to Carmo without further ado

If it doesn't - I think I'll have to check for continuity for all the cables between the ECU plug and the dash plug - I can't say I'm looking forward to that possibility

As an aside, are there any intermediate connections between the dash and the ECU I need to look at?

[Moto]

Cheers Moto

I'm going to stay my excitement and leave it in the airing cupboard for another day to make sure 

Also I bought some Servisol contact cleaner at lunch time and that's going to get shot everywhere that needs it and left to fully evaporate

The probability is that it is the dash given the dousing it had, so if it connects to the ECU after that lot it'll go straight off to Carmo without further ado

If it doesn't - I think I'll have to check for continuity for all the cables between the ECU plug and the dash plug - I can't say I'm looking forward to that possibility

As an aside, are there any intermediate connections between the dash and the ECU I need to look at?

The dash probably senses the presence of the ECU via the CAN bus lines, which are at pins 26 and 27 of the black multi-connector on the dash. These appear to be direct wires w/o intermediate connectors. You could also examine the wiring diagram for other possible indirect routes to worry about, but I wouldn't.

I put a little petroleum jelly in my dash connectors when I re-mated them, but they appeared like new when I examined them.

Moto

[tris]

I think that you're correct as I had a look at the writing diagram after I wrote (its better than working  ) and I think!

26 dash goes to 29 on the body connector - CAN - L
27 dash goes to 20 on the body connector - HAN - H

I'm not sure if I need to worry about the K-Line but looks reasonably easy to check
28 dash goes to 7 on the body connector.
Pin 16 on the body connector takes the K-line to the diagnostics plug under the seat

I originally thought I had 40 odd of the blighters to ring out, but if I'm lucky I'm down to 4!!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Moto,
          I seem to recall you did a lot of work on the dash for these later bikes.
I don't know anything about Can Bus (I work on industrial systems) but I'm sure we have owners on here who work with it every day, I assume it's an international standard.
I wonder what tools are available to plug into the connector (60) on Carl's drawing.

[Moto]

Moto,
          I seem to recall you did a lot of work on the dash for these later bikes.
I don't know anything about Can Bus (I work on industrial systems) but I'm sure we have owners on here who work with it every day, I assume it's an international standard.
I wonder what tools are available to plug into the connector (60) on Carl's drawing.

Roy, I only know what I read about CAN bus in the Wikipedia! It's a digital packet-based system, vaguely like Ethernet. It would be nice to find a generic reader to plug into the connector, and for all I know Guzzi is using standard messages. Whether reading them could help us is a mystery to me.

Moto

[Kiwi_Roy]

At the very least it might confirm it's communicating
Hopefully an expert will jump in here.

I found this basic tutorial describing it
https://www.kvaser.com/can-protocol-tutorial/

[tris]

I believe that CAN BUS is simply explained as black magic 

If I can see continuity between the dash and the ECU that'll do to start.

Watch this space as reconnection starts tomorrow

[Moto]

Hopefully an expert will jump in here.

Ditto!

Thinking about it a little more, I suppose getting a CAN bus "sniffer" attached to that connector might allow an expert to understand what is passed between the dash and the ecu, and maybe open up a path away from the original dashboard to some generic, CAN-bus capable, replacement. That would be great!

I wonder what such an expert would think about that.

EDIT: It's all been done, it seems. Here's what you'll need to get started:

http://hackaday.com/2013/10/21/can-hacking-introductions/

http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/gendev/can-usb.htm

 

P.S. The K line is not part of the CAN bus (insert transportation joke here): https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests/k-line/

[tris]

I found this on Guzztech last night (I know its for a Stelvio)  http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/ecu-disconnect.11859/ and he concludes that the speedo sensor wire was the cause

Its interesting because my speedo had a hissy fit (and them recovered) a month or two back where it "accurately" showed that I had ridden the bike at 150 miles per hour - which is nice 

I shall take a look here during the big connect tonight

Tris

PS like his, on mine all the lights illuminate on the dash during the test sequence but neutral and side stand lights refuse too once that is complete

[tris]

We're getting ....... somewhere

Put it back together and still the same.

Established that 4 way flashers, indicators, sidelights front & rear brake lights and horn all worked

HOWEVER I found that fuse E had blown - replaced that and it blew again. Fuse E feeds the Main Injector relay

If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??

[Ncdan]

Go to a parts stores get a can of WATER DISPLACEMENT SPRAY. Put the straw that comes with it on the spray button. Spray every connection you can get to, starting under the seat. The stuff works.

[lorazepam]

We're getting ....... somewhere

Put it back together and still the same.

Established that 4 way flashers, indicators, sidelights front & rear brake lights and horn all worked

HOWEVER I found that fuse E had blown - replaced that and it blew again. Fuse E feeds the Main Injector relay

If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??

I haven't looked at the schematic, but you have a short or overload on that circuit. does it feed anything else off that relay?
Pull the relay, replace the fuse and see if it pops.
Does it power the supply or the switch side? If it is the switch side, something in the kill switch, neutral, or sidestand switch might have an issue.
Is it is the supply side, you have a short to ground somewhere, or a fubar injector.

edit: spellin'

[bad Chad]

Ok, I get you.  It's been down and some of this stuff is not related to the fork lock.

Like Steve said, Joe W, the Guzzi Doctor, is another excellent local Guzzi resource.

I have a B1100, runs like it never wants to stop!  Come out once you get this sorted out, and join us for our monthly breakfast in Dekalb, first Sat of every month!

[beetle]

If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??

Yes. It supplies the ECU 'KEY_SENSE' input. If this doesn't go high at key-on, the ECU will stay idle.

[Kiwi_Roy]

We're getting ....... somewhere

Put it back together and still the same.

Established that 4 way flashers, indicators, sidelights front & rear brake lights and horn all worked

HOWEVER I found that fuse E had blown - replaced that and it blew again. Fuse E feeds the Main Injector relay

If this relay went FUBAR could it show itself as an ECU disconnect??

I guess so
Now what's blowing it?
Probably a wiring short somewhere, I doubt water in the dash would be able to blow the fuse
Look at all the different loads tied to that fuse.
Your diagram must be different to the one I have it shows fuse E going to pin 4 of the ECU
The main injector relay would have both coils and both injectors on it, perhaps the pump also

Good Luck
Roy

[Moto]

Roy is right, per my diagram (Carl Allison's colorized version). Fuse E supplies the ECU, pin 4, directly from the battery. Fuse D is the one that directly supplies the injection main relay.

If Fuse E blows before the ignition is turned on, there must be a ground somewhere along its path to the ecu, since there are no other branches off that circuit.

On the other hand, if Fuse E blows only after the ignition is turned on, the ECU is implicated. Either it is grounding internally, or it is sending current to another wire that has a short circuit. I'll bet it's the second possibility.

Of all the powered circuits from the ECU, the one off pin 17 has the most branches. You could check whether any wire on that circuit is shorted to ground by using an ohmmeter on any of its terminations, with the ignition turned off. For example, at the speed sensor (item 49) at the rear wheel, the place the Guzzitech poster found his problem. You would need to separate the connector there and test for ground on the appropriate wire coming from the ECU, which apparently has a "+" mark at the connector. (Bad news: At least for my Griso, the color coding on Carl's wiring diagram does not match the colors of the wires at that connector.)

And so on if you still haven't found a short, for all the other powered wires from the ECU, including indirect feeds.

Have you checked the speed sensor already? Those speed sensors fail, especially on the earlier bikes. Maybe they can short to ground internally, causing your problem. Try unplugging yours and seeing if Fuse E still blows. If not, check its unplugged wire, as above.

Or maybe you meant Fuse D all along, in which case I am now at a Roseanne Roseannadanna moment: Never mind!

There must be a better plan. Roy??

Moto

[tris]

Cheers both - my bad I meant fuse D 

Priority 1 today is to print the wiring diagram off on A3 in colour so "the dog can see the rabbit"

Old school this bike as no ABS so no rear sensor. I have checked the front speed sensor and and get 700 ohms across terms 2&3 (manual says it should be 500-600) so in the ball park given that my multimeter isn't the best in the world. I haven't checked for a circuit to earth though

I also know now that if I just replace fuse D and switch on, everything does what it should do including lighting the side stand and neutral lights and no disconnected ECU icon.
As soon as I push the start button it pops fuse D and the side stand/neutral lights go out and the icon/triangle of death appears

Its always helpful if you can cause the failure, even if you need a large supply of 15A fuses to track the solution down

Thanks for the support

Tris

PS Startus Interuptus mod is fitted