Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: YnotGuzzi on June 01, 2015, 09:40:16 PM

Title: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: YnotGuzzi on June 01, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
'03 Cali EV. Getting a tapping noise from the left cylinder head. Increases with throttle, not louder just more taps. This engine is supposed to have self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. Sure sounds like a clearance issue to me. Are these things adjustable? If so what is the clearance. I don't want to take anything apart yet until I know what I'm in for. Thanks in advance.  ::(
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: Wayne Orwig on June 01, 2015, 09:48:19 PM
Does it have the update?
Not adjustable in general terms.
I would recommend that you not put another mile on it until you find out what is going on. If it has an original valve train, it may be filling the motor with damaging hard bits.
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: Doppelgaenger on June 02, 2015, 01:59:23 AM
If you have a pre-recall bike then do as wayne says and lock away the keys. If it is the tappet then you're going to have to take apart the engine to find out what is wrong with it.

The easiest way to find out if the recall has been done is to take off the valve covers. The pre and post pictures can be seen here (although I think they're backwards, the post-mod has no nuts on top). you have to register to see the pics I think. http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/cal-1100-hydraulic-lifter-info.13108/ (http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/cal-1100-hydraulic-lifter-info.13108/)

Here is some more info http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75687.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75687.0)
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: rodekyll on June 02, 2015, 02:57:46 AM
Figure out if it's intake or exhaust (stethoscope is your friend) and then see if a spring has broken or the pushrod bent.  Those are the simple things.  DO NOT MESS WITH THE ADJUSTERS!!!!

A hydro lifter has a tappet and an insert.  The insert acts as a seal for oil.  It has a hole in the end that gets closed by the pushrod as the cam comes around.  Oil pressure pumps up the insert to zero lash and holds it there for the business part of the cam rotation.  As the lifter comes off the lobe it relaxes the seal and a squirt of oil lubes stuff.  So oil failure at the lifter = expensive-sounding noises.  DID I MENTION THAT MESSING WITH THE ADJUSTERS IS A BAD TROUBLESHOOTINNG STRATEGY?

Anyway, if it's not the pushrod or a broken spring/bent valve/ other failures common to hydro and solid lifters, then it's the lifter that's not holding pressure.  The insert can be removed from the pushrod hole with a bit of bailing wire with a burred tip.  With a good burr you can use the oil hole to pluck it out of its lifter and up the bore.  Assuming you didn't mess with the adjuster, you should be able to drop a new insert down the bore, strap on the rockers and go for a ride.  If you did mess with the adjuster, then you have to retweak the lash with a special dummy slug that you don't have, or micrometers and a good calculator + rinse and repeat on the rocker arm R&R as you fish out the dummy (which has no oil hole -- do you have the special tool?) and replace it with the live grenade.  So don't mess with the adjusters! 

BTW -- what oil do you use?
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: jmcg666 on June 02, 2015, 05:23:18 AM
Changed all four of my tappets last year, cost about £20-25 each from Gutsibits here in the UK, not difficult (only one had gone but what the hell...).  Once the rockers are off, use a thin 'mechanical fingers' (got mine off amazon) to lift them out, slip the new ones in and rebuils.  Worse bit was trying to get the shims and spring to line up when sliding the pins backs.
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: YnotGuzzi on June 02, 2015, 10:54:35 AM
I use Harley Syn3  in the engine.
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: theoneandonly on June 02, 2015, 10:59:51 AM
when you get it home
 take off a rocker cover , if it has had the 3rd re-call the , valve collet carriers should have been changed to aluminium from steel .
if they are steel the final recall has NOT been done . the other give-away is blue gaskets .
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: rodekyll on June 02, 2015, 02:26:27 PM
I use Harley Syn3  in the engine.

The SCREAMING EAGLE oil?  You ever heard an eagle scream?  It's a high-pitched, scrapy, chattery sound, very similar to a seizing bearing or two unlubed steel I-beams dragged across a dry steel deck.  It's a sound that will fracture your teeth.

Syn3 is probably the scariest shit you can intentionally put in an engine, and as you know, the hydro is the pickiest engine there is for oil.  Syn3 specs are (literally) MEETS THE FOLLOWING STANDARDS: "new and improved" "recommended by 4 out of 5 dentists" "formulated from 'nard extract, serum, and other secret stuff" and "wait -- there's more!"  It's touted as ideal for engines, transmissions, clutches, and primary chains -- but even the materials sheets is vague on what specs -- if any it meets.  Either HD has no idea what's in the stuff and can't tell you -- or they do know and they won't tell.

But don't take my word for it . . .

http://easyrider.easyrider.com/syn3.htm

Here's the actual sheet as quoted in the article:

Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) on the SYN-3, as filed with the Federal Government.
 Manufactured by - Citgo Petroleum.
 Composition section:

Component
 CAS #
 Concentration

(1) 1-Decene Homopolymer, hydrogenated
 68037-01-4
 50% - 70%

 (2) Proprietary Ingredients
 Proprietary Mixture
 1% - 10%

 (3) Polyisobutylene
 9003-27-4
 1% - 10%

 (4) Distillates, Petroleum, Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic
 64742-54-7
 0% - 20%

 (5) Distillates, Petroleum, Solvent-Refined Heavy Paraffinic
 64741-88-4
 0% - 20%

 (6) Zinc Alkyldithiophosphat e
 68649-42-3
 0% - 2%

NOTES:

Item (1) is a Group IV base oil. unable to locate the manufacturer of this base oil. Group IV and V base oils are the only "true" synthetics to the cognoscenti.

 Item (2) is probably their additive package (boron, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, moly), but it is conceivable there could also be some "secret" synthetic oil, maybe an ester type oil, included in it.

 Item (3) is a fancy name for synthetic rubber (or elastomer) but this is probably considered to be "synthetic" oil as well.

 Item (4) is a Group II base oil, namely Conoco Pure Performance Base Oil, either 110N, 225N or 600N. Pretty much no one is calling a Group II oil a synthetic.

 Item (5), No specific information on this group but it is Conoco's Cit-Con 650N Base Oil. It's presumed that it is a Group I oil as it is solvent refined. Most quality blenders are not using Group I oils in their premium motor oils and they are not considered synthetics.

 (From the MSDS for the HD 360 20w50 oil: The major base oil constituents in it are the same ones as are listed in Items (4) & (5) above.) H-D 360 is marketed as a non-synthetic, conventional (petroleum-based) lubricant.

 Items (4) & (5) above, are likely needed to keep the old air-heads running without bearing skid and gasket leaks. This design flaw is clearly stated on Harley Davidson's own web site.

 Items (4) and (5) are particularly interesting to me since Harley Davidson's own marketing information makes reference to how SYN3 is formulated to prevent bearing skid. Are they using petroleum-based ingredients to compensate for basic design flaws in their motorcycles? For decades, Harley Davidson has strongly discouraged the use of synthetic lubricants in their motorcycles. Could this be why and could running a 100% synthetic in a Harley Davidson still be problematic



Note that HD will not certify this crap for any of their engines except:

SYN3 is formulated for use in Harley-Davidson Evolution® XL, Evolution 1340, Twin Cam® (all displacements) and Revolution-equipped models and all Buell® models. 

the oil is NOT RECOMMENDED for ANYTHING ELSE HD OR ANYONE ELSE makes.

the first thing I'd do with this problem is replace the oil with a hydro-compliant type.  The clatter could go away.


All strictly $0.02 -- with some pretty good backup.
Title: Re: Tap Tap Tap left cylinder
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 02, 2015, 02:38:52 PM
Oh boy! An oil thread.. smile.. just the same, that is incorrect oil for a hydro Guzzi.