Brakes: sintered vs. kevlar vs. organic??

[Tony/CT]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between these three types of brake materials? I'm riding an 02 EV and 09 Vintage. No race machines here. Which type of brake will last the longest and be kindest on the rotors? Which came as original equipment on the California bikes?

[Wayne Orwig]

Both of those bikes have stainless steel rotors. I recommend EBC HH sintered metallic.
Kevlar pads won't last long, and won't work well.
I doubt any organic pads would work well on those hard rotors.
Ceramic pads may work OK. Not sure where you would find them.

[mtiberio]

I don't like pads that will cause the rotors to wear out when the pads do. That is the sintered pads. Too rough on rotors. I like nice soft organics. Bed in quick, cover your bike in pad dust, and leave the rotors nearly unworn.

thats my $0.02 FWIW...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Dang! Two guys that know their stuff telling you different things..  ;D  :BEER: I was hoping they'd tell me what pads to put on the back of the Commie Thumper. I'll probably go with HH.

[oldbike54]

Dang! Two guys that know their stuff telling you different things..  ;D  :BEER: I was hoping they'd tell me what pads to put on the back of the Commie Thumper. I'll probably go with HH.
[/quote

 Who are you and what have you done with OUR Chuckie  ???

   Dusty

[Triple Jim]

I've seen a lot of sintered (HH) pads on stainless disks, and the disk wear is not excessive.  These were old stock disks that came on Kawasaki triples, so nothing exotic.  I've read on this site that using them on iron disks is a problem.  EBC's web site shows all the different types they make, and describes the properties of each.  I just went though deciding what type to buy for a project bike recently, and that EBC information was helpful.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I've read on this site that using them on iron disks is a problem.

Yeah, me, too.

[Wayne Orwig]

2004 EV SS rotors
Always used EBC HH sintered pads.
114,000 miles.
No real wear that I know of.
I did try a set of kevlar, and as I suspected, they only lasted half as long.

On the other hand I tried sintered pads on my 1994 with soft iron rotors. It cut the rotors pretty fast.

[Moto]

I put nice, gentle organics on my Griso (with stainless disks) last year and have been very happy. I believe the originals were also organic.

If I can lock my brakes under all street/highway conditions, I'm happy. Conceivably I could still experience fading in racing conditions, but I don't do that. I'd feel foolish if I thought I was running unnecessarily abrasive pads, so I avoid the sintered ones.

The ones I got are good old Ferodos, Platinum Series. These are hard to find in the U.S., but AF1 Racing had them in stock, for about $30 a set (you'd need two sets for dual front disks, of course). You might email them to inquire -- they have been extremely helpful in my experience.

I expect your bike had genuine, organic, Brembo pads. (That's what I concluded about my Griso, though I have now forgotten the evidence I used.)

According to the http://ecat.ferodoracing.com/motorcycle/brake-pads-and-shoes/FDB2042 page, your 2009 Vintage and my 2007 Griso seem to share the same pads (FDB2042 front, FDB2018 rear):

MOTO GUZZI   CALIFORNIA Classic / Vintage   1000   2007   >      2   FDB2042      FDB2018
MOTO GUZZI   GRISO 1100                           1100   2005   >   2008   2   FDB2042      FDB2018

The Platinum (organic) versions take a "P" suffix, like FDB2042P.

Page III (i.e., the third page) of the Ferodo motorcycle catalog has a nice chart comparing the properties of its several disk compounds. It indicates both organic and sintered are suitable for road use, with the former easier on the disks and the latter giving longer life for the pads. You'll find a pdf copy here: http://www.ferodoracing.com/pdf/catalogues/Ferodo_motorcycle_catalogue.pdf.

Moto

[Tony/CT]

The rotors on the 09 Vintage had warped so I replaced them with a set of Snowflake Brembo rotors from Guzzitech. I couldn't determine from Todd's site if they were stainless steel but on the Brembo site it looks as if their rotors are stainless steel.

[redrider]

I installed EBC FA244HH pads on the V11 and like them. Bedding in took about 15 miles of neighborhood riding-one stop was mediocre and the next was WOW! The feel is amazing and a characteristic I like a lot is when applying them at speed-the pads grip now and the rate of decell is quick. At lower speeds, say <50mph, the initial bite is softer with the same finger pressure. I would not recommend them for ductile iron rotors.

[rocker59]

The rotors on the 09 Vintage had warped so I replaced them with a set of Snowflake Brembo rotors from Guzzitech. I couldn't determine from Todd's site if they were stainless steel but on the Brembo site it looks as if their rotors are stainless steel.

Yes.  The Snowflake rotors are stainless.  And, the blades are nice and thick!  Aluminum carriers make them relatively light.  Really good rotors!

[rocker59]

   I've read on this site that using them on iron disks is a problem.   

Yeah, me, too.

I'm going to be the odd man out on this one, but I use EBC HH pads on my Sport 1100.  About a dozen years ago I picked up a set of used full-floating  Ducati Brembo rotors with aluminum carriers and cast iron rotors.  These were fitted to the 900SS/SP and maybe some of the S-model superbikes in the 1990s.  At the same time I fitted a Brembo GP front master cylinder.

They've been great.  No fade.  Good performance in all weather.  Great performance when warm to hot, like at a track day or riding hard in the mountains.  No complaints, and they haven't worn the rotors out yet.

I do ride "the pace" and don't use a lot of brake in normal riding...

[redrider]

Rocker, good point on the pace. I also use engine braking for most minor speed adjustments with the heavy braking coming off the slab or late braking/trail braking into some corners. Mixed bag, some heavy, some not. Tire compound also may limit the choices. Sport bikes respond well to being ridden like sport bikes, eh?

[rocker59]

Sport bikes respond well to being ridden like sport bikes, eh?

Yes.  "the pace" is bike-dependent, and the Sport 1100's pace is a lot higher than other Guzzis I have ridden.   :bike

[Tony/CT]

1. So the rear pads on the 09 Vintage need replacement. I can't tell from the pads if they are sintered or not. On the pad reads FeritI/D450FF with the accompanying number 07.5270. The Brembo site does not tell me what these are. Does anyone know?

2. I removed the caliper and removed the pin holding the rod that passes through the holes in the pads. Put brake cleaner on it. The pin spins freely in the caliper with the pin out but will not slide out of the caliper. It looks as if it should drop right out of the caliper but does not. Anyone know what I am doing wrong? I've changed the pads out on my EV and never had this issue.

[rocker59]

1. So the rear pads on the 09 Vintage need replacement. I can't tell from the pads if they are sintered or not. On the pad reads FeritI/D450FF with the accompanying number 07.5270. The Brembo site does not tell me what these are. Does anyone know?

2. I removed the caliper and removed the pin holding the rod that passes through the holes in the pads. Put brake cleaner on it. The pin spins freely in the caliper with the pin out but will not slide out of the caliper. It looks as if it should drop right out of the caliper but does not. Anyone know what I am doing wrong? I've changed the pads out on my EV and never had this issue.

1.  FF pads are going to be organic.

2.  There is a detent keeping the pin in the caliper.  You will need to lightly tap it out with a hammer and punch.

[Wayne Orwig]

The pin has a spring loaded clip also. It will take a punch/screwdriver and a hammer.

[Tony/CT]

I put an allen key in it and hit it with a rubber mallet but it would not come out. So...hit it harder and the pin and spring loaded clip should come out? And once it comes out is it relatively easy to put the spring loaded clip back in?  ???

[oldbike54]

I put an allen key in it and hit it with a rubber mallet but it would not come out. So...hit it harder and the pin and spring loaded clip should come out? And once it comes out is it relatively easy to put the spring loaded clip back in?  ???

 Right direction ? The pin should not be all that stubborn . The clip isn't hard to replace .

  Dusty

[Noguzznoglory]

you could always go with the OE brakes (provided you can get 'em). that way you know they're compatible with the other parts on your bike.

[rocker59]

I put an allen key in it and hit it with a rubber mallet but it would not come out. So...hit it harder and the pin and spring loaded clip should come out? And once it comes out is it relatively easy to put the spring loaded clip back in?  ???

It takes a pretty good tap, but shouldn't be that hard.  If you're using a 90-degree allen key as your punch, trade it for something straight.

Rear pad change should be a 5- or 10-minute job.

[Stevex]

When I had a GSXR750 I fitted EBC HH pads. They were very good with the standard SS discs.
I've just replaced my LM2 original discs with SS discs from HMB-Guzzi; they recommend original Brembo Carbon Ceramic pads with the discs, which I bought. Looking at the friction surface, they are sintered.

http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/Bremse/Bremsbelaege/Bremsbelag-Satz--Bremszange-P-08--gr--Mod-.html

[redrider]

Ferodo was/is the OE supplier to Brembo. Difficult to source in my experience unless buying OE Brembo parts from the dealer. Hammers and Punches?? Oh my! These things are not Knuckleheads.

[Moto]

Ferodo was/is the OE supplier to Brembo. Difficult to source in my experience unless buying OE Brembo parts from the dealer.

See my post above. af1racing.com has the Ferodo organic pads he needs. I think Brembo-branded OEM pads are about double the price.

[Guzzidad]

   
     I don't  much like EBC HH pads. Had them once and took them off in the first hundred miles. Too grabby and they actually loosened the bolts holding my rotors on. Much prefer SBS pads

[jetmechmarty]

   
     I don't  much like EBC HH pads. Had them once and took them off in the first hundred miles. Too grabby and they actually loosened the bolts holding my rotors on. Much prefer SBS pads

I run with SBS ceramic pads on my old Japanese bike.  I love them!  I think sintered pads have to get hot before they start working as they're supposed to.  I'll be looking for SBS ceramic for the Guzzi, too!

[Orange Guzzi]

Brake pad dust make the brakes work better. 

[Rainman]

   
     I don't  much like EBC HH pads. Had them once and took them off in the first hundred miles. Too grabby and they actually loosened the bolts holding my rotors on. Much prefer SBS pads

:+1

SBS (Scandinavian Brake systems) Ceramics are all I buy now. They're  Just right, not to touchy like EBC HH's and they last way longer than organics. If they aren’t available in the states Ebay Uk has them reasonably. 

They work great on my '96 Cali with cast iron rotors and the newer bikes with SS rotors.

[guzzibob]

Strongly advise against using sintered HH pads on cast iron rotors. Used them on my T3 with stock one piece cast iron rotors (albeit only on the hand brake only side, pretty weak as it comes). Worked great for a while, then warped the rotor-twice. Never warped a disc previously using the Ferodo Platinum GG organic pads, in many many miles. Then switched that hand brake rotor to the stainless steel full floating rotor made by EBC and available from MG Cycle, back to EBC HH sintered pads, for sure better braking than GG on cast iron, and no warping. This is not remotely a high horsepower bike, & I don't ride that hard. Tried the same thing on the hand brake on my 1000S, this time stock full floating cast iron rotors.  EBC HH sintered pads this time did not permanently warp the rotors, but did overheat them enough to lock up the front wheel-twice. Never ever happened before or since using Ferodo Platinum GG organic. Happy enough to then leave this bike that way, as this bike's hand brake in stock trim is a lot better then the same on T3. You might be lucky like Rocker 59, or you might not. I know EBC specifically says their HH pads are not suitable for use on cast iron rotors, and my experience has very much reflected that.