Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jaxthedog on January 05, 2012, 06:26:34 PM
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I'm relatively new to the forum but have a question that's nagged at me since I bought the B-1100 in June - knowing that this topic has probably been discussed before. Specs call for 10W60 racing oil. I try to keep a spare quart or two of what ever is called for in whatever I'm riding in the garage, but the 10W60 is difficult to find.
My nearest Guzzi dealer (only 50 miles away) has an off-brand which I purchased, but I am due for a 12,600 service and wondering if there might be an acceptable alternative/
So not knowing the finer art of engineering that goes into modern motor oil, I'll innocently ask: What does one give up by changing to a more available 10W50 synthetic? Are the differences between these two types of products critical enough to the bike's performance and engine longevity to warrant the harder-to-find stuff? If not, what do most people use in place of the specified lubricant?
Thanks for revisiting this on my behalf. :)
(http://s15.postimage.org/xc1do1j7b/P1020506.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xc1do1j7b/)
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I am not sure with the 2 valve engines but I know the 4 valve seems to need the right oil. I buy a gallon of the stuff in advance and then store it until I am ready to change the oil. That way I always have what I need.
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Wait, wait, wait: My mistake... The specs for the B-1200 Sport calls for 10W60.
My B-1100 (I just revisited the manual on line) calls for 4T 5W40. So the circumstance is a bit different, but the question still stands.
Thanks. ;D
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Can't really answer your question nor probably can anyone else but if you locate your nearest retail oil distributor you should be able to buy Redline 10-60 for about 8.00 per quart as I do here versus the $10+ auto parts store charge.. You can also ride into Roseville BMW and or any BMW dealer in pick up 10-60 by the quart....
Hope that helps...
Regards,
Another Placer County Escapee....
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I am not sure with the 2 valve engines but I know the 4 valve seems to need the right oil. I buy a gallon of the stuff in advance and then store it until I am ready to change the oil. That way I always have what I need.
I do the same but I have kept an oil change on hand to cover me. Dealer used 20w-50 at service so I think you'd be fine in mild temps. But I decided to stick with 10w-60 and that's what I do. I buy from Racer Parts Wholesale and use Redline. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/11024/Motor_Oils
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A&S in Sacramento carries 10/60.
Elk grove carries Motul 10/60 which is what I use.
Also I've bought from these guys. IIRC they charge a flat rate shipping of 7 or 8 bucks.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/11024/Motor_Oils
Also any BMW auto shop carries it.
Or lastly...Any NAPA can order it for ya.
Edit...
Hey I see that Kirk and the Gorn buy from racerparts also.
Quick...who played the Gorn?
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A&S in Sacramento carries 10/60.
Elk grove carries Motul 10/60 which is what I use.
Also I've bought from these guys. IIRC they charge a flat rate shipping of 7 or 8 bucks.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/11024/Motor_Oils
Also any BMW auto shop carries it.
Or lastly...Any NAPA can order it for ya.
Edit...
Hey I see that Kirk and the Gorn buy from racerparts also.
Quick...who played the Gorn?
I know now, but I had to look it up! Curious that the Gorn shops at Racer Parts too! ;-T
I've found they ship fast too.
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Ignore the online manual as the recommendations were superceded/revised by a technical service bulletin that calls for 10w-60 for all CARC big blocks.
Search the forum and you'll find it's been debated many times and the bulletin has been posted too.
Summary - Some claim other oils are fine and a few have seen oil lights come on with other viscosities.
Personally I'm glad I make enough money to spend $100 on a case of the proper spec oil and not worry about it.
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Thanks, everybody.
Had checked many local auto parts stores and didn't find any. Didn't check A&S, though I go there as necessary for my Beemer. In any event, I'll be finding and loading up a case of 10W60.
And, Kev, thanks for the heads up re: the on-line manual.
- Dave
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MG Cycle carries the Motorex 10W-60 that you seek. I don't know for sure, but Harpers may carry 10/60 as well, not to mention other dealers such as MPH and Moto International. I have also heard some auto parts stores can order it for you. It is a bit of a pain, but much easier to get than a couple of years ago.
Ajip, the OEM oil: 12 Liters, $122.86:
http://www.americanagip.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_6&products_id=6
Zoom Zoom,
John Henry
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I bought a case of Agip 10-60 from these guys:
http://www.motocarr.com/
Shipped to my door it was still cheaper than 20-50 Mobil 1 from AutoZone.
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A local guy keeps the synthetic Agip 10-60 on the shelf, thats nice. Just bought a new KTM, it recommends full synthetic 10-60 for racing/heavy duty use, 10-50 for medium use. Of course they recommend Motorex, which is around $18/qt, but there's also Motorex 10-60 with a little orange KTM portion on the sticker that sells for over $20/qt. I find it hard to believe there's anything different in the bottle and you're just paying for marketing.
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I bought a case of Agip 10-60 from these guys:
http://www.motocarr.com/
Shipped to my door it was still cheaper than 20-50 Mobil 1 from AutoZone.
Wow - good price until they add on (for me) $38.00 shipping. That puts them over the price from RacerPartsWholesale who have free shipping on sales of over $100.
Guess I'll stay with Red Line until Agip goes on sale.
jdg
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I just bought a Griso in Dec and did an oil change before storing it. I used 5-40 and a fram oil filter. I didn't get the memo on what garbage the Frams are until after. I called the local Guzzi dealer, and this is what he said:
Don't worry about the 5-40 until temps get into the 70 degree temps. For me in Western NY state, that's sometime in May. I planned on changing the oil/filter in spring anyways.
I then badgered him about the 10/60 oil bulletin. He said that their shop recommends Mobil 1 10-40 synthetic, given our climate and ease of availability. My understanding is that the 10/60 is ideal for extreme heat conditions, where we only get a handful of 90 degree days per year here.
I was going to follow his recommendation until I saw how cheaply you can buy good 10-60 stuff by the case. I'm guessing you get 3 oil changes per case for about $120, dropping the cost significantly. I'll be using an UFI filter and Red Line or AGIP when the riding starts up again.
How long do you guys go between changes? Does this oil keep viscosity over a long service life? Or do you still change oil every 2000 miles?
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2000 miles JEZUS KEYRIST I never went that short with Dino juice.
6k miles or a year with a quality synthetic.
I go 10K on most cars these days, 15-18k on our old Mini with the oil life monitor.
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How long do you guys go between changes? Does this oil keep viscosity over a long service life? Or do you still change oil every 2000 miles?
Or, to add to this question... With the high cost of this oil, is anyone getting their oil analysed? And if OK, just changing the filter?
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When I bought my MV I looked high and low for Agip 10/60. Ultimately I just use Mobil1 15/50 full synthetic in both my Duc and my MV. The 15/50 does not mess with the wet slipper clutch in the MV and the Duc has a dry clutch so thats not a concern. I've attached the oil reports for review. I think it's going to be a Grizo SE for me in the spring. ;) Not sure what the oil requirements are for the Grizo but it wold be nice if I could run 15/50 across the board.
(http://s16.postimage.org/403h1bz41/Duc.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/403h1bz41/)
(http://s16.postimage.org/we8wl7mo1/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/we8wl7mo1/)
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I'd be interested to see an oil analysis on the 10W-60 stuff. To get there - they typically start with a 10 weight oil and add viscosity improvers. These oils with a wide viscosity range almost always shear faster. Some of the PAO based oils fare a bit better.
But there is a place to get real world oil analysis results:
www.bobistheoilguy. com
There are sections for automotive, diesel, motorcycles, small engines, etc.
Probably won't find any Moto Guzzi reports there but there are many BMW and Harley (air-cooled) used oil analysis, in addition to many other metric cruisers. These can give an indication of how well a particular oil stays in grade, etc.
Not saying that the 10W-60 oil isn't the best thing since sliced bread. Only offering information.
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I got 10w60 at my local BMW dealership (car dealership, not bike), they carry Castrol TWS which Castrol specially design for BMW M cars, price is the appox same as Agip 10w60. my Guzzi dealership is 100 km away. got 3 BMW dealership within 30 km
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As reported by our favorite Australian Guzzi dealer tech / expert, the 8V motors (like the Griso SE) utilize dedicated oil passages to lubricate and cool the exhaust valve stem. It's idiotic to risk an oil that doesn't meet OEM specs on them.
Again, I spend more money one night out for sushi or Tapas than I do on THREE OIL CHANGES!
Get over the cheap or lazy guys!
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I give up. Who did play the Gorn?
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When I bought my MV I looked high and low for Agip 10/60.
http://www.americanagip.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_6&products_id=6
No Sweat, right to the door. EXACTLY what my expensive steel and alloy flying bits need per the manufacturer.
Hunter
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as stated, this subject has been discussed many times before.
10-60 racing is recommended on all CARC bikes. It is especially needed on the 8v engines as they mostly cooled by oil, and are more highly stressed engines. I did read the tech bulletin and it clearly states 10w60 for all CARC bikes except California bike, why I don't know. Cali is 20w50 as an alternative, go figure. I think it was on the this old tractor web page, I think.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/moto_guzzi_technical_note_010-2006.pdf
Before I saw the updated tech bulletin, I used 10-40 Rotella syn., and got a the dreaded oil can light once in hot, stop and go traffic. I immediately changed to 15-50 mobil 1 oil, and have never had another issue. Since the updated tech bulletin, I have been contemplating going to 10-60 as it gets pretty hot around here during the summer. I imagine I will make the change, even though I have never had an issue with 15-50, all it takes is one time for there to be a problem.
I am over 35k miles, and I don't have to add any oil between changes, every 5k oil and filter.
Old Head
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Personally I'm glad I make enough money to spend $100 on a case of the proper spec oil and not worry about it.
:+1
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People can be funny creatures. If you can convince them that they will surely be struck by lightning if they don't do "X" or purchace "Y", they will not only line your pocket by buying the product, but do their best to brainwash their friends into doing the same. Is this a killer business plan, or what?
In the computer world, it's taken as gospel that unless you protect your computer with the very latest virus protection programs, your hard drive will be reduces to smoking slag in a matter of seconds. Some claims go even farther. One highly advertised product claims that their program "finds and fixes the problems with your PC". I remember reading a product evaluation for this product on one of the Geek sites where the geek purchased the product and loaded it into his well-used PC> The product identified and corrected 426 different problems in a matter of minutes. He then loaded the same product into a brand new computer with a never used hard drive. Result? In a matter of minutes, it found and corrected 426 different problems. What I'm trying to say here is that some manufactorers prey on the consuming public. I have an old PC that I have ran for years without any sort of protection of any kind... and it's still working. Hasn't burned the house down or anything.
As to oil- a good example can be made regarding the Russian motorcycle I own. According to the manual, it requires premium gas with a minimum of 91 octane. This in an engine with 7.5-1 compression and producing a whopping 40-45 horsepower. Why is this? Well- when the importer was jumping through the hoops placed in front of it by the EPA, they had to do everything they could to get the primative design to pass emissions, and they chose premimum fuel because it gave them the advantage of running a leaner mixture without pinging. Since the emissions were certified using premimum fuel, premimum was what they had to specify. The oil they mandate is SAE 20w-50. That's what they used to pass emissions. That's what the manual calls for. Of course, if you watch the "how to do minor maintenance" video they offer, it sure looked like Cheveron SAE 30 they were pouring in. Lightly loaded, all roller bearing engine with a 1700 mile service cycle? That's all that's needed.
There are certain applications which do require better lubrication- applications where the exhaust valve is cooled by oil, for example. There, MG specs a 10w-60 oil. They probably also like the idea of having a little greater protection as insurance against warranty claims. The funny thing is- the viscosity has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil will react to heat. Folks who've spent some time around air cooled VW's can attest to this. You could always tell when someone was using Penzoil because the parafin-based oil broke down into greenish crud when faced with the oil temps generated by the air cooled VW. In a water cooled Buick V8 it was never an issue.
As I see it, unless the application actually demands some super-lubricant, it's probably a waste of money to slavishly use it. Just like it's a waste of money to put premimum gas in my old Ural. Been running regular for six years and never had an issue.
PeteT.
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(Sigh.)
Run whatever you want. Just don't whine if something goes 'Udders Skywards' if you haven't used something that meets the manufacturers specifications.
As an aside I have been servicing from new a lot of CARC bikes and probably more 8V's than most shops in my market. I use a top of the range oil and have NEVER had a failure that might even be related to oil performance. Even on my own bike which by all accounts SHOULD of failed due to the soft tappet fiasco.
In Oz an 8 Valver is a $20,000 + motorbike. If customers want to put something inferior in their bike? That's fine. I won't do it for them though and they'll get no sympathy if they start crying 'Warranty' if they have.
VDG
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People can be funny creatures. If you can convince them that they will surely be struck by lightning if they don't do "X" or purchace "Y", they will not only line your pocket by buying the product, but do their best to brainwash their friends into doing the same. Is this a killer business plan, or what?
In the computer world, it's taken as gospel that unless you protect your computer with the very latest virus protection programs, your hard drive will be reduces to smoking slag in a matter of seconds. Some claims go even farther. One highly advertised product claims that their program "finds and fixes the problems with your PC". I remember reading a product evaluation for this product on one of the Geek sites where the geek purchased the product and loaded it into his well-used PC> The product identified and corrected 426 different problems in a matter of minutes. He then loaded the same product into a brand new computer with a never used hard drive. Result? In a matter of minutes, it found and corrected 426 different problems. What I'm trying to say here is that some manufactorers prey on the consuming public. I have an old PC that I have ran for years without any sort of protection of any kind... and it's still working. Hasn't burned the house down or anything.
As to oil- a good example can be made regarding the Russian motorcycle I own. According to the manual, it requires premium gas with a minimum of 91 octane. This in an engine with 7.5-1 compression and producing a whopping 40-45 horsepower. Why is this? Well- when the importer was jumping through the hoops placed in front of it by the EPA, they had to do everything they could to get the primative design to pass emissions, and they chose premimum fuel because it gave them the advantage of running a leaner mixture without pinging. Since the emissions were certified using premimum fuel, premimum was what they had to specify. The oil they mandate is SAE 20w-50. That's what they used to pass emissions. That's what the manual calls for. Of course, if you watch the "how to do minor maintenance" video they offer, it sure looked like Cheveron SAE 30 they were pouring in. Lightly loaded, all roller bearing engine with a 1700 mile service cycle? That's all that's needed.
There are certain applications which do require better lubrication- applications where the exhaust valve is cooled by oil, for example. There, MG specs a 10w-60 oil. They probably also like the idea of having a little greater protection as insurance against warranty claims. The funny thing is- the viscosity has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil will react to heat. Folks who've spent some time around air cooled VW's can attest to this. You could always tell when someone was using Penzoil because the parafin-based oil broke down into greenish crud when faced with the oil temps generated by the air cooled VW. In a water cooled Buick V8 it was never an issue.
As I see it, unless the application actually demands some super-lubricant, it's probably a waste of money to slavishly use it. Just like it's a waste of money to put premimum gas in my old Ural. Been running regular for six years and never had an issue.
PeteT.
As to the computer analogy, MS does load lots of crap from new. I generally spend two-three days removing it when new. They have agreements to load various programs that allow marketing and monitoring. That is how they make heir money, not from the software consumers. MS is the worlds largest virus.
As to the oil, did you read Pete's article on the dissection of the new CARC motors with additional oil passages?
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I don't think the fuel analogy holds any water either. At the very least you'd need to find out what oil recommendations they make in different markets (away from EPA or EU control) to know if you've got anything to base it on.
Also the comments on marketing miss the target. Though I'm sure there is a relationship between Piaggio and AGIP, it's not like AGIP is the only possible source of oils that meet their recommendations.
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I give up. Who did play the Gorn?
Shatners stunt double...Gary Combs.
I'm sure he used synthetic. I mean...Dino would be morally reprehensible to a Gorn. :D
For all you true Trek geeks....What makes Mark Leonard unique iin the series? ???
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I don't think the fuel analogy holds any water either. At the very least you'd need to find out what oil recommendations they make in different markets (away from EPA or EU control) to know if you've got anything to base it on.
Also the comments on marketing miss the target. Though I'm sure there is a relationship between Piaggio and AGIP, it's not like AGIP is the only possible source of oils that meet their recommendations.
They are both Italian companies...I suspect there is a lot of old school business practices going on there. One thing they CAN'T do in the US is tell you that you have to use AGIP. A MFG must supply that item for free if that is required to maintain warranty (I got a HD dealer into a pickle when they refused my Buell warranty claim because I didn't use the HD oil they said Buell requires). This still requires the owner to use an oil that is of similar spec. Why would anyone risk this during the warranty period to save a handfull of $$?
That being said, my Griso is the only bike that suggests a specific brand. I try to use that brand as 10w-60 is somewhat hard to find anyway.
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This article is what made me move to Mobil1 15/50 in all of my current machines, it's a good read...
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html)
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I have always used Mobil One 15-50. Even heated some 10-60 and some 15-50 to varying temps and did a cursory viscosity test. The 15-50 was same at lower temps but actually a bit stiffer at higher than normal engine temps. I run it through a paint strainer and you can certainly see the weight that way. Not scientific but good enough for me. So why 10-60? Who knows, but I bet it has something to do with the way the engine sounds when its started, kinka clanky and a heavier oil kinda tones that down some. Oil is so well engineered now I personally would not be adverse to using 5-20 in any of my motorcycles. I do respect others opinions but will always do my own thing. 15-50 Mobil One is not "Inferior" to any oil, not what I use in my tractor, lawnmower or automobiles but its what I use in air cooled motorcycles.
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It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.
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It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.
My Triumph owner's manual said "Mobil 1 15W-50" and it was a JASO-MA motorcycle-specific oil (different from the automotive version) that seemed to be available only at the Triumph dealers.
;)
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It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.
Yep, the Stelvio manual does recommend AGIP 10W-60 but then says that any good brand of oil meeting the same grade and specs will be fine ....
Just sitting down and doing the math over the years (and the older I get, the more I tend to think in "years"), I find that looking to save a few bucks by buying some sort of off-spec oil, and doing the engineering in your head to justify that it will be OK and will go through the oil passages the same, behave the same at temperature, form the same hydro-wedge in the plain bearings, etc ....
.... well, it just doesn't add up. Not for me.
Lannis
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For what it is worth when I took my Norge 8V in for the 1,000 mile services the dealer put dino 10-40 in. I did not realize it until I looked at the service ticket at home. I had to ride the bike home in around 100 degree weather. At some stops my oil light would fliker some but not stay on. As soon as I obtained the 10-60 I never saw anymore of the oil light.
GliderJohn
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On the Ducati link and referenced MCN test data is anyone sure that M1 15-50 still uses the same formulation as it did during that now dated test?
Don't get me wrong, I've used that oil in various bikes in the past, but I'm not sold it's necessarily the best choice these days, not for all my bikes.
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http://www.americanagip.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_6&products_id=6
No Sweat, right to the door. EXACTLY what my expensive steel and alloy flying bits need per the manufacturer.
Hunter
;-T That's what I did too, no issues at all
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It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.
Buell suggests HD syn3 or whatever HD sells now.
Yamaha suggested Yamaha oil
Honda suggested Honda oil
EH suggested EH oil
MG suggested Agip
Guzzi was the only oil that suggested a 'brand'. Everyone else suggested whatever re-branded oil they sell under the MFG name. ALL of them suggest alternative oil of a similar spec because they have to (unless they give it away).
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Buell suggests HD syn3 or whatever HD sells now.
Yamaha suggested Yamaha oil
Honda suggested Honda oil
EH suggested EH oil
MG suggested Agip
Guzzi was the only oil that suggested a 'brand'. Everyone else suggested whatever re-branded oil they sell under the MFG name. ALL of them suggest alternative oil of a similar spec because they have to (unless they give it away).
Re-branded or branded - PoTAYto - poTAHto - same deal since there isn't a brand I know of that makes their own oil.
My point is pretty much every manufacturer RECOMENDS a viscosity or viscosity range of either a particular brand OR their own rebranded product (or if not JUST a viscosity/range/type, but that's rare these days).
Another example would be that Mini cars recommend Castrol Syntec (and I think BMW does too, meaning they don't have their own "branded" product).
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Yep, the Stelvio manual does recommend AGIP 10W-60 but then says that any good brand of oil meeting the same grade and specs will be fine ....
Just sitting down and doing the math over the years (and the older I get, the more I tend to think in "years"), I find that looking to save a few bucks by buying some sort of off-spec oil, and doing the engineering in your head to justify that it will be OK and will go through the oil passages the same, behave the same at temperature, form the same hydro-wedge in the plain bearings, etc ....
.... well, it just doesn't add up. Not for me.
Lannis
I agree . . . it's foolish to scrimp on the quality of oil or the frequency of changes!
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Last year I got my AGIP 10w-60 on Ebay, for a fair price. I just checked, and there's nothing economical there now.
It's another option.
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There are probably a few different oils that would work O.K. in my Norge, and some of them might even work better than the recommended AGIP 10W-60. However, I'm not a petro chemical engineer, and I don't know which may be better, and which might cause serious problems to occur quickly. I do know that if I use the oil that's recommended by the factory, that my engine will probably outlive the rock of Gibraltar.
That's good enough for me.
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Elf 10W60 Campione Motorcycle oil can be had at the Oil Watehouse. Great oil great price.
http://theoilwarehouse.com/?mainURL=/store/item/2ad9z/Motorcycle_ATV_Golf_Cart_Scooter_Oils/Elf_MOTO_Sport_4_10W-60_Campione.html
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+1 for Red Line.
Car Quest will get Red Line Oil (10w60) next day from their supplier. It's what I've been using the past few oil changes. So far so good and meets all the requirements.
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I have always used Mobil One 15-50. Even heated some 10-60 and some 15-50 to varying temps and did a cursory viscosity test. The 15-50 was same at lower temps but actually a bit stiffer at higher than normal engine temps. I run it through a paint strainer and you can certainly see the weight that way. Not scientific but good enough for me. So why 10-60? Who knows, but I bet it has something to do with the way the engine sounds when its started, kinka clanky and a heavier oil kinda tones that down some. Oil is so well engineered now I personally would not be adverse to using 5-20 in any of my motorcycles. I do respect others opinions but will always do my own thing. 15-50 Mobil One is not "Inferior" to any oil, not what I use in my tractor, lawnmower or automobiles but its what I use in air cooled motorcycles.
When is the last time you tore down a Guzzi motor on a CARC bike?
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When is the last time you tore down a Guzzi motor on a CARC bike?
I love a January oil thread!!!
(http://s15.postimage.org/rcr34un3r/popcorn.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
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I love a January oil thread!!!
(http://s15.postimage.org/rcr34un3r/popcorn.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
I've been quietly reading them myself. (http://s15.postimage.org/rcr34un3r/popcorn.gif)
We could use our popcorn oil in my V11 Lemans right? ;D
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I love a January oil thread!!!
(http://s15.postimage.org/rcr34un3r/popcorn.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
+1
Matt
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When is the last time you tore down a Guzzi motor on a CARC bike?
NEVER and I don't expect too either. I ran 15-50 in my R1150GS for about 50,000 miles and didn't have to tear it down either. Those engines are pretty similar except for the BMW has quite a bit better low end grunt and a few more valves. I don't remember what BMW recommended for their bike but I bet it wasn't Mobil One either.
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I love a January oil argument to. **C ::)
I am not sure why it is so hard to follow the recommendations in the manual. ??? Don't get it.
I run 10/60 in my Griso 8V as recommended. I have a case of Agip in the garage. Done.
Tony C
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I gots me this here horsie what eats oats and grass. I gots me a doggie wot's a mammal too. It's so darn similar that it's even gots hisself the same counts on tails, legs, and earholes. So it should follow, like my doggie follows the horsie, that the doggie eats oats and grass, too. Sometimes alfalfa. But I can't see buying diffrnt foods for them when they seem so much alike.
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I gots me this here horsie what eats oats and grass. I gots me a doggie wot's a mammal too. It's so darn similar that it's even gots hisself the same counts on tails, legs, and earholes. So it should follow, like my doggie follows the horsie, that the doggie eats oats and grass, too. Sometimes alfalfa. But I can't see buying diffrnt foods for them when they seem so much alike.
:+1
Best one I've read yet. ;-T ;-T
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OK.... one more attempt to put this all into perspective. Let's say I go to the nursery and buy a potted palm tree for my home. I water it every day with ordinary tap water and it thrives. Should I be watering it with bottled water from Fiji- so that it will feel more comfortable? Personally, I think that would be a waste of my limited monetary resources that could better be applied elsewhere. If the guy at the nursery pointed out to me that I should water it only with bottled water, I would probably water it with bottled water- but only because I don't know all that much about potted palm trees. But- if I felt comfortable with my knowlege of potted palm trees, I would probably be tempted to experiment a little, while closely monitoring the health of the palm tree.
Have any of us, to date, bothered to mount temp and pressure gauges to, lets say an Ambo and a modern 8 valve bike and actually compared the conditions the oil has to operate under- taking into consideration, of course, the bearing loading and surface speeds and other differences between the two? Has anyone even compared the two externally using an infrared thermometer? Until we do this, we're operating more on emotion than logic.
Back when I was in Aircraft Mechanic School, I was taught that engine oil served five functions:
1). Lubrication of moving parts.
2). cooling.
3). corrosion control.
4). cleaning.
and
5). cushioning.
Are there any of these functions that are done satisfactorly by 10w60, and not by, say a 20w50 of the same quality? Other than viscosity at the extreme end of the range, I've got to say "no". As I pointed out before, MG probably likes the idea of a SAE60 oil during the break in process, which also happens to coincide with the warranty peroid. The world is full of folks who don't understand what's going on during the break in peroid, and don't always operate an engine in ways most conuctive to proper running in. If I were Guzzi, I'd want that extra layer of protection against warranty claims, too.
But what about a properly run in engine? Is it still necessary to spend three times as much on oil? Actually, I don't know for sure. But until I see actual data proving that using anything but Genuine Italian 10w-60 in my small block will result in total mechanical devistation and/or possible excommunication, I will continue to suspect that this notion is more superstition than proven science. Primitive man feared the eclipse.... until it was better understood.
If you listen closely, and understand the language, the engine will tell you all you need to know. The trick is to pay attention while it's whispering... and not make it get your attention by throwing a rod through the case.
PeteT.
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You should have gone back to school the second day to learn the rest of the story.
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OK.... one more attempt to put this all into perspective. Let's say I go to the nursery and buy a potted palm tree for my home. I water it every day with ordinary tap water and it thrives. Should I be watering it with bottled water from Fiji- so that it will feel more comfortable? Personally, I think that would be a waste of my limited monetary resources that could better be applied elsewhere. If the guy at the nursery pointed out to me that I should water it only with bottled water, I would probably water it with bottled water- but only because I don't know all that much about potted palm trees. But- if I felt comfortable with my knowlege of potted palm trees, I would probably be tempted to experiment a little, while closely monitoring the health of the palm tree.
Have any of us, to date, bothered to mount temp and pressure gauges to, lets say an Ambo and a modern 8 valve bike and actually compared the conditions the oil has to operate under- taking into consideration, of course, the bearing loading and surface speeds and other differences between the two? Has anyone even compared the two externally using an infrared thermometer? Until we do this, we're operating more on emotion than logic.
Back when I was in Aircraft Mechanic School, I was taught that engine oil served five functions:
1). Lubrication of moving parts.
2). cooling.
3). corrosion control.
4). cleaning.
and
5). cushioning.
Are there any of these functions that are done satisfactorly by 10w60, and not by, say a 20w50 of the same quality? Other than viscosity at the extreme end of the range, I've got to say "no". As I pointed out before, MG probably likes the idea of a SAE60 oil during the break in process, which also happens to coincide with the warranty peroid. The world is full of folks who don't understand what's going on during the break in peroid, and don't always operate an engine in ways most conuctive to proper running in. If I were Guzzi, I'd want that extra layer of protection against warranty claims, too.
But what about a properly run in engine? Is it still necessary to spend three times as much on oil? Actually, I don't know for sure. But until I see actual data proving that using anything but Genuine Italian 10w-60 in my small block will result in total mechanical devistation and/or possible excommunication, I will continue to suspect that this notion is more superstition than proven science. Primitive man feared the eclipse.... until it was better understood.
If you listen closely, and understand the language, the engine will tell you all you need to know. The trick is to pay attention while it's whispering... and not make it get your attention by throwing a rod through the case.
PeteT.
Here's my perspective: I do not risk a 5000 dollar engine on a savings of 10. No matter what the nurseryman says about feeding plants (which are cheap) an actual accredited Engineer specified the lubrication requirements of my expensive, close tolerance hydrocarbon disposal system.
More popcorn please!
Hunter
(http://s14.postimage.org/i8k9h2av1/popcorn.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
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Pete - your reply fails multiple times again in the following false logic or bad arguments.
1. Your similie is horrible. The "manufacturer" of the Palm tree obviously didn't "spec" bottled water. Not to mention the plant in question is found in nature, as is water, neither of which is true for a Guzzi motor or motor oil.
2. You went to aircraft mechanic school and not engineering school. This becomes obvious when you essentially claim that 10/60 and 20/50 are equivalents. They are obviously not by the simple API standards that determine viscosity. I'm not an engineer either, but I've been surrounded by them my whole life (father, brothers, school mates, co-workers) and I know this much, they wouldn't have different viscosities on oils if there weren't differences in how they perform their jobs as oils.
[note for #2 - I'm not claiming to know the degree to which the differences are significant, however it's obvious most or no-one else here does either. The difference has been enough to trigger oil warning lights on some CARC 2-valvers - at least I've never heard of those same bikes or any others ever triggering the lights under the same circumstances with 10-60, so it's up to each of us to decide how much of a difference that is, but it is obviously a difference.]
3. "Is it necessary to spend 3x as much on oil." - answers a point that no-one is making. I for one am not saying that one MUST USE NOTHING BUT AGIP 10/60, but I AM saying that since the manufacture's recommendation is for a synthetic 10/60 motorcycle oil, it would likely be wise to stay as close to that recommendation as possible. That said, the difference in price between say M1 15-50 and AGIP 10-60 is NO WHERE NEAR 2x or 3x.
4. You seem to be talking small-blocks, while most of the rest of us are talking big-blocks (specifically CARC big-blocks). If I'm not mistaken the recommendations are not identical between the two. EDIT - yup see below:
750 SERIES (Breva and Nevada):
Engine oil: RACING 4T 10W-60 or as an alternative 15W-50
Transmission oil: ROTRA TRUCK GEAR 85 W -140
Gearbox oil: ROTRA MP/S 80 W -90
850-1100-1200 SERIES (Breva Griso and Norge):
Engine oil: RACING 4T 10W-60 For this type of engine, we warmly recommend that you use this type of oil since it guarantees ideal pressure values even at very high engine
temperature.
Transmission oil: ROTRA MP 80 W -90
Gearbox oil: ROTRA MP/S 85 W -90
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I've been researching some used oil analysis on the AGIP 10W-60 today. What I'm seeing is that it shears rather quickly to a 50 weight oil and in many cases - to a 40 weight.
Also read a response from a letter written to Amsoil Corporation. They recommend their 20W-50 MCV in place of the 10W-60.
Still, another Guzzi site recommends that Castrol 20W-50 "works well in most any Moto Guzzi".
In MY owner's manual, AGIP products are recommended for everything.
I suspect that MG used these products (or similar spec) during research and development and that is why they recommend them.
I'll be using a PAO-based 20W-50 in mine. Thankyouverymuch.
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Didn't the Ducati link with MCN data claim all oils lose viscosity pretty quickly?
So if 10-60 quickly goes to 50, then 40, what do you think likely happens to 20-50 or 15-50?
Is it possible that the company ENGINEERS took this into account with THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS?
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I am not a mechanical engineer (and I don't play one on television, either). It makes absolutely no sense to me to use any oil except the grade that the engineers who work for the manufacturer have specified. Saving a few bucks by using a cheaper or easier to find oil in a different grade may wind up costing someone a bunch of $$$$$, headaches and heartaches if their engine goes ballistic.......... ......because they're trying to beat the odds that they know more about this subject than the mechanical engineers who came up with the specifications for a specific engine. Doesn't seem logical to me. YMMV
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I got 10w60 at my local BMW dealership (car dealership, not bike), they carry Castrol TWS which Castrol specially design for BMW M cars, price is the appox same as Agip 10w60. my Guzzi dealership is 100 km away. got 3 BMW dealership within 30 km
Thats what I do. Except my local bmw motorcycle shop carries it. He meant to buy 1 case just for us local Guzzi guys. He somehow ended up with 4 cases. He sells them to me $12 per quart.
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Also read a response from a letter written to Amsoil Corporation. They recommend their 20W-50 MCV in place of the 10W-60.
And along with that, you'll find that Amsoil doesn't sell a 10w-60 oil.
A cop sees a guy looking for something on Elm Street. "You lose something?" "Yeah, a $50 bill". "Lose it right around here?" "No, over on 2nd street". "Why you looking here then?" "'Cause the light's better here!"
Of COURSE Amsoil's recommending their own brand ... even if it's different. That's what they DO!
How come it's some kind of scam for Guzzi to recommend Agip, but Amsoil has only our interests at heart in recommending THEIR 20w-50 instead of anyone else's 10w60?
Lannis
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OK- I've read and considered all the responses to my posts, and have one question: Can anyone... anyone, present actual data which shows the requirement for a 10w-60 weight synthetic oil in the later bikes? Other than the suggestion by Guzzi- which may just as well have originated in their marketing department or warranty claims department as their engineering department?
PeteT.
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Moto Guzzi Technical bulletin
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/moto_guzzi_technical_note_010-2006.pdf
Old Head
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Since no one here is privy to Guzzi engineering and testing data I'll say no.
That said I've posted temp data showing my stock Breva runs hotter than my stock Jackal despite having an oil cooler.
Similarly Pete Roper has shown pics of the 8V heads and the new exhaust valve oil cooling passages.
It's also obvious how lean and hot late model bikes run to meet leaner emissions standards.
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OK- I've read and considered all the responses to my posts, and have one question: Can anyone... anyone, present actual data which shows the requirement for a 10w-60 weight synthetic oil in the later bikes? Other than the suggestion by Guzzi- which may just as well have originated in their marketing department or warranty claims department as their engineering department?
PeteT.
Very simply put: It's up to you, not me to give your argument credibility, and vague innuendo is not credible unless you're pandering it like Glenn Beck. If you are arguing that the current factory specs are mere 'suggestions' and originating in the marketing department, it is your job to prove it, not mine. After all, it is you making the argument. If you can't find any specs, how do you know what you're disagreeing with?
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Moto Guzzi Technical bulletin
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/moto_guzzi_technical_note_010-2006.pdf
Old Head
Interesting reading! Especially the opening line: "Due to the stricter homologating specifications, our motorcycles use oils with more evolved technical features". A quick search for the defination of the word "homologating" lead me to the following Wikipedia explaination:
"Homologation is a technical term, derived from the Greek homologeo (ὁμολογέω) for "to agree", which is generally used in English to signify the granting of approval by an official authority. This may be a court of law, a government department, or an academic or professional body, any of which would normally work from a set of strict rules or standards to determine whether such approval should be given. The word may be considered very roughly synonymous with accreditation, and in fact in French may be used with regard to academic degrees (see apostille). Certified is another possible synonym, while to homologate is the infinitive verb form.
In today's marketplace, for instance, products must often be homologated by some public agency to assure that they meet standards for such things as safety and environmental impact. A court action may also sometimes be homologated by a judicial authority before it can proceed, and the term has a precise legal meaning in the judicial codes of some countries".
My apologies to the Marketing and Warranty departments- it looks as though this Urban Myth had it's beginnings in the Legal department. ;D Absolutely no mention of engeneering concernes mentioned.
PeteT.
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Wow, it can't be just me who understood that line in the bulletin to mean "ever tightening emissions standards".
That in turn means ever leaner mixtures and hotter engine temps which put a higher demand on the oil.
This isn't some evil plot.
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That's funnier than hell "we warmly recommend" because at high temperatures we feel that the higher viscosity is needed!!!!!... I think they just don't want people running crap oil in their engines, and I don't blame them for saying and printing as they are because if people were running crap oil and engines suffered they would be the recipient of bad publicity. But "warmly recommend" is a far cry from "severe engine damage may result" "other oils will result in failure" etc etc
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Didn't the Ducati link with MCN data claim all oils lose viscosity pretty quickly?
So if 10-60 quickly goes to 50, then 40, what do you think likely happens to 20-50 or 15-50?
Is it possible that the company ENGINEERS took this into account with THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS?
Some of the 20W-50 also shear quite readily.
However, there are others that do not. In comparing used oil analysis(s) for the same application between the AGIP 10W-60 and some of the better 20W-50 oils, it appears that that particular 10W-60 doesn't stay in grade nearly as well as many of the 20W-50's.
That was my point. The only way to know for sure us to submit an oil sample.... or cheat and go to bobistheoilguy.com and read the used oil analysis(s) provided by the members.
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First, this paper reads like an autogenerated translation from some foreign language. Nobody uses the term anymore, which means there's probably a better synonym for whatever they were trying to get across.
That said, going from no supporting evidence to the wikkipeedonya in support of an obscure term isn't helping. The W hasn't been homologated as an authority on anything. ;)
Also, you need to offer a discrete context for the definition in your argument. You just toss it all out in a jumble, take the part where they used it in a sentence as part of the definition, draw a line that doesn't exist between the [random examples for use in a sentence] and Guzzi, and assume that since the aura of legal officialness somehow surrounded the random examples, you can conclude a lawyer did it. From there you jump the tracks completely and declare factory oil specifications to be an urban myth started in the Moto Guzzi legal department.
I'll let the lurkers sort that out for themselves.
Let's look at a more "standard" definition from Websters:
Definition of HOMOLOGATE
transitive verb
: sanction, allow; especially : to approve or confirm officially
— ho·mol·o·ga·tion \-ˌmä-lə-ˈgā-shən\ noun
Synonyms: accredit, approbate, authorize, clear, confirm, finalize, formalize, approve, OK (or okay), ratify, sanction, warrant
Antonyms: decline, deny, disallow, disapprove, negative, reject, turn down, veto
How does this standard useage (not the ancient greek and random examples) NOT apply to engineering decisions when we are in an engineering context?
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I still haven't seen any actual numbers put forth, only opinion and conjecture. Just out of curiosity, what is the average operating oil temperature of some of the later bikes? Once we know for sure, it will be a lot easier to make an informed decision.
PeteT.
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I agree that the lack of data can be frustrating. I've had temp/pres gauges on my rigs since the 70s. I've offered the numbers up up in these discussions and they're largely ignored, so I gave up. I imagine just about everyone else with something educated to say about it gave up a long time ago. Now the real debate is which is better -- oil or air popt corn.
[insert that popcorn smarm here]
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First, this paper reads like an autogenerated translation from some foreign language. Nobody uses the term anymore, which means there's probably a better synonym for whatever they were trying to get across.
That said, going from no supporting evidence to the wikkipeedonya in support of an obscure term isn't helping. The W hasn't been homologated as an authority on anything. ;)
Also, you need to offer a discrete context for the definition in your argument. You just toss it all out in a jumble, take the part where they used it in a sentence as part of the definition, draw a line that doesn't exist between the [random examples for use in a sentence] and Guzzi, and assume that since the aura of legal officialness somehow surrounded the random examples, you can conclude a lawyer did it. From there you jump the tracks completely and declare factory oil specifications to be an urban myth started in the Moto Guzzi legal department.
I'll let the lurkers sort that out for themselves.
Let's look at a more "standard" definition from Websters:
Definition of HOMOLOGATE
transitive verb
: sanction, allow; especially : to approve or confirm officially
— ho·mol·o·ga·tion \-ˌmä-lə-ˈgā-shən\ noun
Synonyms: accredit, approbate, authorize, clear, confirm, finalize, formalize, approve, OK (or okay), ratify, sanction, warrant
Antonyms: decline, deny, disallow, disapprove, negative, reject, turn down, veto
How does this standard useage (not the ancient greek and random examples) NOT apply to engineering decisions when we are in an engineering context?
Looks to me like Moto Guzzi's still using the term. In fact, they chose it over the phrase: "Due to the bloody incredible demands our engines place upon lubricating oil, we strongly suggest you use XXX" ;D
Actually, the Webster's definations are not all that different from the Wikipedia's definations. I'm not all that great a fan of "Wikkipeedonya" either- but it was the first thing to come up and the definition didn't seem all that unbeleivable- at least not to me. The similarity of the Webster's definations with the Wikipedia explaination does somewhat seem to homogolate Wikipedia in this case.
Still, MG should have been more straight forward and stated the real reason behind their requirements, in plain English, if they wanted their customers to understand.
PeteT.
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I agree that the lack of data can be frustrating. I've had temp/pres gauges on my rigs since the 70s. I've offered the numbers up up in these discussions and they're largely ignored, so I gave up. I imagine just about everyone else with something educated to say about it gave up a long time ago. Now the real debate is which is better -- oil or air popt corn.
[insert that popcorn smarm here]
The warranty peroid will be up on my V7C late this summer, and I'm planning some oil system mods- mainly a remote, external spin on filter and insturmentation for temperature and pressure. I'll post my findings.
Oil or air popt? I don't know- my wife won't let me near either one! ;D
PeteT.
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(http://s7.postimage.org/qfen8x2nr/outsider.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qfen8x2nr/)(http://s14.postimage.org/m54xz1ev1/oil_pressure_sender.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/m54xz1ev1/)
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I still haven't seen any actual numbers put forth, only opinion and conjecture.
And this is so different from what you've been putting forth?
I'd have to use the search function to go find the cylinder head temps I measured and posted. Maybe next time I sit down at a PC.
That said has something changed from the service bulletin? You keep talking about a smallblock and the bulletin doesn't say the same thing for smallblocks which suggests a difference in needs no?
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I still haven't seen any actual numbers put forth, only opinion and conjecture. Just out of curiosity, what is the average operating oil temperature of some of the later bikes? Once we know for sure, it will be a lot easier to make an informed decision.
PeteT.
Ambient temp 30*C. On the open road in 'Cruise mode', ie legal speeds oil temp on my 8V hovers between 115*C and 120*C. Get up it and give it heaps of welly, especially in the lower gears with comensurate slower air movement through the cooler and it'll get up to 130*C.
In traffic in Canberra this arvo with the ambient temperaure in the mid thirties checked the temp at the traffic lights and the guage was at about 135-140*C indicated.
Measurements taken with one of those dipstick thermometers. Once moving again the temperature rapidly falls back to about 120*C indicated.
Remember that is the oil in the sump. NOT the oil that has just passed through the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and drained back via the frot of the cylinder castings.
IMHO the actual viscosity rating is of LESS importance than the fact you need a full ester oil more able to withstand heat but the higher hot rating can't do anything but help in the prevention of boundary lubrication.
Penrite's top oil has just been changed slightly from being called Sin 10 to 10 Tenths Premium Full Synthetic. Apart from the fct it is now supposed to be safe for wet clutches the claims made are the same. A 20 litre drum costs me a bit over $200AU. No 8V I've ever serviced has failed due to even the possibility of oiling problems. as I said. Put what you want in. I won't be puting yak-fat in any of my or my customers' bikes any time soon.
Pete
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Ambient temp 30*C. On the open road in 'Cruise mode', ie legal speeds oil temp on my 8V hovers between 115*C and 120*C. Get up it and give it heaps of welly, especially in the lower gears with comensurate slower air movement through the cooler and it'll get up to 130*C.
In traffic in Canberra this arvo with the ambient temperaure in the mid thirties checked the temp at the traffic lights and the guage was at about 135-140*C indicated.
Measurements taken with one of those dipstick thermometers. Once moving again the temperature rapidly falls back to about 120*C indicated.
Remember that is the oil in the sump. NOT the oil that has just passed through the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and drained back via the frot of the cylinder castings.
IMHO the actual viscosity rating is of LESS importance than the fact you need a full ester oil more able to withstand heat but the higher hot rating can't do anything but help in the prevention of boundary lubrication.
Penrite's top oil has just been changed slightly from being called Sin 10 to 10 Tenths Premium Full Synthetic. Apart from the fct it is now supposed to be safe for wet clutches the claims made are the same. A 20 litre drum costs me a bit over $200AU. No 8V I've ever serviced has failed due to even the possibility of oiling problems. as I said. Put what you want in. I won't be puting yak-fat in any of my or my customers' bikes any time soon.
Pete
I agree about the ability of the oil to withstand heat being more important than the viscosity rating. Some oils just break down into crud if you run them too hot. Just for reference, in air cooled VWs, I regularly ran 180F- 250F, and sometimes even higher using common Castrol GTX 20w-50. Oil and filter changes at 2000 miles. Had a Yamaha TX500A back in the mid 70's. Dang thing would run 250+F and often hit 300F+ at times. Had it for 35,000 miles before I sold it. Squeeky clean inside- excelent compression- no problems noted. Same Castrol GTX.
PeteT.
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I love a January oil argument to.
no kidding....everyone has their mind made up, yet they think they're going to convince others they are right and those that don't agree are wrong.
I've been using Motorex 10W-60 Cross Power full synthetic in my KTM dirtbikes for years, and in a performance motor that uses about a liter of oil, it can't be bad form to use a quality lubricant. I'll use Silkolene or Agip if I can't find Motorex, but in the same viscosity.
My XR628 held twice as much oil, and it got Castrol GTX...so I'm certainly no oil snob.
I have no problem paying a few bucks more for 10W-60 Power Synt for the Guzzi.
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Pete s, on the VWs where were you measuring that 250-300°F?
Remember Pete R is saying that he sees peak sump temps of about 284°F (140°C), which means head temps are likely higher ESPECIALLY when the oil passes through that dedicated exhaust valve passage. Granted that's 8V motors only but still.
Bottom line, the fact that members using quality 20w-50 have reported flickering oil lights on some 2V big blocks under summer conditions is enough to suggest to me that the factory recommendations are NOT ALL MARKETING.
I am sure other brands and viscosities will work much of the time, but equally sure that the OEM recommended oil will work more often than most so I have no motivation to stray from it.
I've not told anyone what they need to do in this thread, I've only answered the question posed by the op and refuted at least some of your objections with data and logic. Believe and use what you will.
More importantly, you've got a different machine than the op which may be enough to change the demands on the oil enough anyway.
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In traffic in Canberra this arvo with the ambient temperaure in the mid thirties checked the temp at the traffic lights and the guage was at about 135-140*C indicated.
Measurements taken with one of those dipstick thermometers. Once moving again the temperature rapidly falls back to about 120*C indicated.
Remember that is the oil in the sump. NOT the oil that has just passed through the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and drained back via the frot of the cylinder castings.
Someone in Germany measured the temperature of the head cover of a centauro. It was about 20 dgr C higher than the oil-sump temperature.
If the oil temperature in the head would be approximately the same, it would be about 155-160 C.
I would NEVER put other oil in my daytona than 10W60 because of the occasional very high temperatures in the heads.
It's important that the oil has enough viscosity at those high temperatures to maintain pressure for the big-ends among others.
(manuals recommend 20W50 for the old 8 valvers by the way)
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Wow. It is definitely winter. :D
I've installed/removed and worked on dozens of these over the years...
(http://s17.postimage.org/wp59ub063/0706dp_03_z_marine_diesel_engines_mtu_diesel_engine.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wp59ub063/)
They cost anywhere from $500K to $700K each...
A major overhaul starts at $100K...
I've been to training at the factory in Friedrichshafen...
Been to maintenance seminars bunches of times...
I've seen a 2500HP V16 throw a rod at full power. The destruction can not be described in words.
I've worked 24 hour shifts to replace large generators on ships at anchorage. Sitting idle for unscheduled maintenance can cost over $400K a day and up...
In all this, oil grade/rating/viscosity has not once been the subject of discussion.
Why not? You use the manufacturers recommendations and change it at the specified intervals. It's a fait accompli.
But hey...Put whatever goo gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling in your bike. :)
Now the important question really is...Boxers or Briefs :D ;)
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Pete s, on the VWs where were you measuring that 250-300°F?
Remember Pete R is saying that he sees peak sump temps of about 284°F (140°C), which means head temps are likely higher ESPECIALLY when the oil passes through that dedicated exhaust valve passage. Granted that's 8V motors only but still.
Bottom line, the fact that members using quality 20w-50 have reported flickering oil lights on some 2V big blocks under summer conditions is enough to suggest to me that the factory recommendations are NOT ALL MARKETING.
I am sure other brands and viscosities will work much of the time, but equally sure that the OEM recommended oil will work more often than most so I have no motivation to stray from it.
I've not told anyone what they need to do in this thread, I've only answered the question posed by the op and refuted at least some of your objections with data and logic. Believe and use what you will.
More importantly, you've got a different machine than the op which may be enough to change the demands on the oil enough anyway.
In the aircraft world, oil temp is generally refered to as "engine in"- the temperature of the oil as it leaves the reservoir and enters the engine proper. I tend to think in those terms. On the VWs, it was taken at the oil pump, the first stop after leaving the sump. I also had a VW Type II for a while that had the sender in the drain plug at the bottom of the sump. That thing ran hotter than bloody heck, and about the highest I ever saw was about 160F indicated. Where you take the measurement makes a big difference in what you see.
You're right- there's probably a lot of difference between the Smallblock (which I'm more interested in) and the various Big Blocks (which everybody else is interested in). The point is: one should never blindly do something based on what somebody else says. If one is going to push the envelope a bit, one should approach it with caution and back off at the first sign of problems. What might work in one application may not work in another. I don't know, but from what I've heard the running clearances on the big blocks are probably larger and the oil pump lacks the flow to keep the pressure up at low RPMs when the oil is hot. I don't know about the Small Block either- but I'll probably be finding out after the warranty expires in August. I'll be generating my own data... using logic.
PeteT.
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Just plain butter for me thanks.
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/drama.gif)
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If one is going to push the envelope a bit, one should approach it with caution and back off at the first sign of problems.
;D ;D
(http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy104/motoguzziclassics/Daytona%201000/P1030149.jpg)
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Bacon Grease
For the Popcorn, Yummy.
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Wow. It is definitely winter. :D
I've installed/removed and worked on dozens of these over the years...
(http://s17.postimage.org/wp59ub063/0706dp_03_z_marine_diesel_engines_mtu_diesel_engine.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wp59ub063/)
They cost anywhere from $500K to $700K each...
A major overhaul starts at $100K...
I've been to training at the factory in Friedrichshafen...
Been to maintenance seminars bunches of times...
I've seen a 2500HP V16 throw a rod at full power. The destruction can not be described in words.
I've worked 24 hour shifts to replace large generators on ships at anchorage. Sitting idle for unscheduled maintenance can cost over $400K a day and up...
In all this, oil grade/rating/viscosity has not once been the subject of discussion.
Why not? You use the manufacturers recommendations and change it at the specified intervals. It's a fait accompli.
But hey...Put whatever goo gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling in your bike. :)
Now the important question really is...Boxers or Briefs :D ;)
That's pretty neat. I've worked on a few diesels over the years- mostly Detroit Diesel -53, -71, and -92 series two strokes, and the occasional Catapillar used on the 60's-70's D7 and D8. My real Forte' is turbines. These days mostly the CFM56-3 and -7. Don't know what they cost now, but replacement cost for a -3 twenty years ago was a little over six million (I know because one of our idiot pilots burned one up).
The -3 produces 20,000-22,00 pounds of static thrust, and the -7's are limited to 24,000 pounds. They can make up to 30,000 pounds just by turning a screw... and juggling a few numbers. I've also done my time with IAE 2500 and 2700's (25,000-27,000 pound thrust), Rolls Royce RB211-535's (42, 000 pounds thrust), Pratt&Whitney JT8D -7, -9, -15, and -17's (12,000-17,000 pounds thrust)... and even some Pratt&Whitney JT9D's years ago. Can't recall the thrust rating on those, but I think it was in the neighborhood of 48,000 pounds. Given the thrust, you can calculate the HP- the standard speed for the calculation is 375 MPH. The modern engines are marvels of engineering- variable guide and stater vanes, 600+ PSI defuser pressures, double spool compressors and turbines (tripple spools on the Rolls)... by the 1990's they could propel a 120,000 pound airplane at Mach .74 while burning only 2 gallons of fuel per mile- and the latest generation (CFM56-7) is a lot more fuel efficient than that.
I've been to the Pratt&Whitney factory training for the JT9D (twenty+ years ago), CFM56 school in Cincinatti, and every once in a while to Dallas for refresher training on the stuff we're flying now.
I can visualize a V16 shedding a rod- but picture an APU shelling itself while turning 68,000 RPM. It's pretty memorable.
Not sure about now, but in the 1990's lost revenue for an out of service 757 was about $5,000 an hour.
I've done my share of 24+ hour shifts as well. When an airplane breaks out of town (with no company maintenance on the field), we get sent "downline" to fix it. I've been sent to more outstations than I care to recall to fix just about everything imaginable- from avionics problems to engine changes. A "small engine (CFM56-3) weighs about 7,000 pounds. Generally, once you leave your home base, you're gone 'till it's fixed.. but a few years ago the company decided that after 16 hours you had the option to take 8 hours off or keep working.
We use MIL-L-23699 spec turbine oil in our engines- usually Exxon 2380 or MobilJet II. Works great! I've seen engines go over 30K hours between shop visits. Wouldn't use it in my bike or car on a bet! Engineered for a completely different application. (Makes a great gun oil, however).
As for the "boxers or briefs" question- definately Boxers. I've had Beemers in the past, and I have a Ural that I wouldn't part with ;D.
And this concludes the "Mine's bigger than yours" portion of our broadcast. ::)
PeteT.
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;D ;D
(http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy104/motoguzziclassics/Daytona%201000/P1030149.jpg)
Looks like someone wasn't listening to what the engine was trying to tell them, and it had to do something more obvious to get that person's attention.
PeteT.
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He said he was just coasting down hill at about 35 mph, and it just suddenly stopped. ;D
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I can't say much about Guzzi bikes as they're still kinda new to me. My air cooled Suzuki ran fine on 10/40 car oil but at about 1500 miles it started clattering indicating the viscosity was gone. I tried the Amsoil but the price was 4-5 time the other oils and didn't last 4-5 times as long. After 40K miles, I sold it to a guy I worked with. He sold it at 82K miles because the top end was making noise. I've run everything from the suggested oil, car oil, disel oil, and Amsoil in my ST. Also suggested filter, Fram MC filters to car oil filters. It uses less than a quart over 5000 miles. I think it could use the popcorn/corn oil/bacon grease mentioned above. I'm at a little over 200k miles with the motor totally stock with the 1996 factory parts. I get 40 MPG down a couple from the pre corn gas days. But none of that relevant 'cause it's not a Guzzi, it's a soulless, plain Jane, old Honda.
My California will be getting the Amsoil 20-50 and is using the non-Guzzi outsider filter system. Hope it holds up.
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Well it's January so let's throw another wrench in the gearworks.
This new bike (2V 100 Breva) actually has a spin-on oil filter. (gasp)
Any of you that have these - what filter do you use?
(it's OK to say Genuine OEM Moto Guzzi filter) ;)
And, since we have everyone's attention -
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP 80W90
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP/S 85W-90
Yes it says transmission twice. I'm guessing that the second one is for the shaft drive?
Is everyone using these fluids?
And another thing - the maintenance schedule calls for changing the "external spark plugs" at 6,250 miles and every 12,500 miles after that. Seems a bit soon?
Thanks
Kevin
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I can't say much about Guzzi bikes as they're still kinda new to me. My air cooled Suzuki ran fine on 10/40 car oil but at about 1500 miles it started clattering indicating the viscosity was gone. I tried the Amsoil but the price was 4-5 time the other oils and didn't last 4-5 times as long. After 40K miles, I sold it to a guy I worked with. He sold it at 82K miles because the top end was making noise. I've run everything from the suggested oil, car oil, disel oil, and Amsoil in my ST. Also suggested filter, Fram MC filters to car oil filters. It uses less than a quart over 5000 miles. I think it could use the popcorn/corn oil/bacon grease mentioned above. I'm at a little over 200k miles with the motor totally stock with the 1996 factory parts. I get 40 MPG down a couple from the pre corn gas days. But none of that relevant 'cause it's not a Guzzi, it's a soulless, plain Jane, old Honda.
My California will be getting the Amsoil 20-50 and is using the non-Guzzi outsider filter system. Hope it holds up.
Yep- some applications are less demanding on oil than others. I've been using Castrol GTX car oil in everything since the early 1970's with complete success. I don't push things very hard- maybe that's why I've gotten away with it for so long. Nothing ever indicated that it was hurting for lack of lubrication... even the hot running stuff (a Yamaha TX500A comes to mind) showed no oil consumption and no deposits after 30,000+ miles. Just a side note about the Yamaha; I sold it to a friend at 35,000 miles who promptly changed over to Amsoil. About a week later, as he was setting idling at a red light, the engine locked up. The glue holding the filter element together had desolved, and the filter paper had plugged the oil line feeding the head. Synthetic oils were something new in the mid 1970's, and apearently Yamaha haddn't taken this into consideration when they made the filter.
Time will tell with the Guzzi. I'll be watching for the warning signs pretty closely after making the switch.
PeteT.
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Well it's January so let's throw another wrench in the gearworks.
This new bike (2V 100 Breva) actually has a spin-on oil filter. (gasp)
Any of you that have these - what filter do you use?
Mobil one, Purolator, or Wix.
(it's OK to say Genuine OEM Moto Guzzi filter) ;)
And, since we have everyone's attention -
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP 80W90
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP/S 85W-90
Been using Mobil 1, 85-90 wt in both, Put 14o in the tranny, it better when hot, but a little stiff when cold
Yes it says transmission twice. I'm guessing that the second one is for the shaft drive?
Is everyone using these fluids?
And another thing - the maintenance schedule calls for changing the "external spark plugs" at 6,250 miles and every 12,500 miles after that. Seems a bit soon?
I check 'em when I check the valves, but I did replace at 5k, and then not again til 25K when I changed the inside ones also. Both sets looked fine, but I still changed 'em.
Thanks
Kevin
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Well it's January so let's throw another wrench in the gearworks.
This new bike (2V 100 Breva) actually has a spin-on oil filter. (gasp)
Any of you that have these - what filter do you use?
(it's OK to say Genuine OEM Moto Guzzi filter) ;)
And, since we have everyone's attention -
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP 80W90
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP/S 85W-90
Yes it says transmission twice. I'm guessing that the second one is for the shaft drive?
Is everyone using these fluids?
And another thing - the maintenance schedule calls for changing the "external spark plugs" at 6,250 miles and every 12,500 miles after that. Seems a bit soon?
Thanks
Kevin
I always said to use the oem filter until I had the Norge. It leaked. It was the first time I've ever had a Guzzi that I could tell if it was leaking or not. ;D I've been using the Bosch 3330 since. If you search hard enough, you'll find where Guzzi delivered bikes with it. Maybe still does?
Yeah, the second spec on transmission oil is the Carc. <shrug> Use good stuff in both.
Spark plugs are cheap.
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I am going to sit in front of the TV, drink a beer and try to think of a useful contribution to this thread that doesn’t mention Wal-Mart. Going to be hard, really hard. ;D
Matt as he opened a Ranger IPA and headed for the den. :BEER:
Matt
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PeteT,
I saw an old training film about the dangers of FOD.
It was, IIRC, a J57 in a test cell at full power. There was a remote arm thingy that tossed a nut (a castellated nut shown in the close up) into the intake. The slow-mo replay as the fan blades broke and it went out of balance were pretty impressive. The undulations of the whole motor as it came apart were way cool.
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PeteT,
I saw an old training film about the dangers of FOD.
It was, IIRC, a J57 in a test cell at full power. There was a remote arm thingy that tossed a nut (a castellated nut shown in the close up) into the intake. The slow-mo replay as the fan blades broke and it went out of balance were pretty impressive. The undulations of the whole motor as it came apart were way cool.
The engine manufactorers actually have to use a "chicken canon" during the certification testing. The FAA requires (if I remember correctly) the engine to be able to take a hit from a 4 or 5 pound bird at 200 miles per hour at full power and be able to contain the shrapnel within the cases. They actually shoot (already dead- though it wouldn't make much difference) chickens into the inlet while running at power in the test cell.
The J57 went on to become the JT3D in civilian life, if I remember right. These low bypass engines were fairly small in diameter, and could turn a lot faster than the larger, high bypass engines we have now without the tips going trans sonic. The things really screamed- anything hard going through resulted in instant mechanical oblivion. The newer, bigger engines turn a lot slower- the N1 RPM on the JT9D is only something like 3600-3700 RPM. Usually, when the newer engines suck up a nut screw, or stray piece of safety wire at ground idle speeds, the resulting ding in the blade can be blended out with a small file.
I once got sent to Midland, Texas one night to change the C1 and C2 fans on a CFM56-3. The field had a lot of high grass around it... which attracted lots of small birds and quail... which tended to also attract bigger birds that were feeding on the smaller birds. Just after V1 The speed at which they begin to lift the nosewheel on takeoff- (about 140 MPH in this case), they took an owl down the intake of the #2 engine. Dang thing must have stood at least knee high! Out of 38 blades on the C1 (the fan you can see in the front of the engine), it managed to bend 29 of them. The thing I thought was spectular though, was what I found under the accustic panels in front of the C1. These panels form a ring around the intake, just in front of the first compressor, extanding about 8" forward of the fan, each segment being about 12" in circumference. Each segment is fastened securely with six or eight 1/4" screws, and they fit together closely enough that you can't get a fingernail between them. When I started removing them, there were feathers and owl-burger packed behind them. A lot of feathers and owl-burger. To this day, I can't explain how it got there for sure.
This thread has sure strayed from it's original subject matter! :o
PeteT.
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I've been researching some used oil analysis on the AGIP 10W-60 today. What I'm seeing is that it shears rather quickly to a 50 weight oil and in many cases - to a 40 weight.
Also read a response from a letter written to Amsoil Corporation. They recommend their 20W-50 MCV in place of the 10W-60.
Still, another Guzzi site recommends that Castrol 20W-50 "works well in most any Moto Guzzi".
In MY owner's manual, AGIP products are recommended for everything.
I suspect that MG used these products (or similar spec) during research and development and that is why they recommend them.
I'll be using a PAO-based 20W-50 in mine. Thankyouverymuch.
Do you have a copy of that correspondece from Amsoil. I remember reading a response from Amsoil about using 20W50 in place of 10W60 and they said to use what the manufacturer said to use. 20W50 is a whole different animal than 10W60. Not only is the oil a different viscosity at high temps it is way thicker at cold temps which could cause high presure problems in cold areas. Considering the already high presures in the MG engines when cold it would probably mean the bypass is open allowing unfiltered oil to be circulated on cold start up. Is that what a person wants? I would think that is worse than the viscosity issue at higher temps.
It is funny that Amsoil does not have an oil recommendation for the BMWs that spec 10W60 here is the reference.
https://www.amsoil.com/mygarage/vehiclelookup.aspx?url2=2007+BMW+M5+1
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Do you have a copy of that correspondence from Amsoil. I remember reading a response from Amsoil about using 20W50 in place of 10W60 and they said to use what the manufacturer said to use. 20W50 is a whole different animal than 10W60. Not only is the oil a different viscosity at high temps it is way thicker at cold temps which could cause high pressure problems in cold areas. Considering the already high pressures in the MG engines when cold it would probably mean the bypass is open allowing unfiltered oil to be circulated on cold start up. Is that what a person wants? I would think that is worse than the viscosity issue at higher temps.
I do not use Amsoil. That letter was posted (I believe) on one of the Adventure Touring forums.
I do not believe that 20W-50 is a whole different animal than 10W-60. This may be true is some cases, but not all. It's important to look at the manufacturer's viscosity and specification charts, at the very least. Second, some amount of research is needed - and much of that research (in my mind) would be to read as many used oil analysis(s) on 20W-50 and 10W-60 oils that I could possibly find. Third, one must have the oil analyzed on their particular bike.
The idea that unfiltered oil circulates at start- up - is a given. Even with the 10W-60 oil. However, if you ride in cold weather then this certainly is a consideration.
I've ordered some of that AGIP 10W-60 and (sooner or later) will get around to comparing it to my favorite 20W-50 (via oil analysis) and who knows? Maybe we can all learn something. It could happen. ;)
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I do not use Amsoil. That letter was posted (I believe) on one of the Adventure Touring forums.
I do not believe that 20W-50 is a whole different animal than 10W-60. This may be true is some cases, but not all. It's important to look at the manufacturer's viscosity and specification charts, at the very least. Second, some amount of research is needed - and much of that research (in my mind) would be to read as many used oil analysis(s) on 20W-50 and 10W-60 oils that I could possibly find. Third, one must have the oil analyzed on their particular bike.
The idea that unfiltered oil circulates at start- up - is a given. Even with the 10W-60 oil. However, if you ride in cold weather then this certainly is a consideration.
I've ordered some of that AGIP 10W-60 and (sooner or later) will get around to comparing it to my favorite 20W-50 (via oil analysis) and who knows? Maybe we can all learn something. It could happen. ;)
Oh my gosh- is that the Voice of Reason I hear? Finally, we might get some actual data to work with, rather than gut feelings and brand loyalty. I, for one am looking forward to your findings!
Isn't it amazing how much oil threads resemble discussions about religion and politics? The common denominator seems to be blind faith and the necessity to selectively reject certain facts..... ;D.
PeteT.
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10W60 4T full syn in any brand and the higher the ZDDP content the better end of story, can't believe every so often we go through this.
Thanks to the EPA the modern Guzzis run FREAKIN hot and the ZINC content in oil is way down.
I await further discourse.
(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/82836855.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=F5B5107058D53DF5DB09DC54E263938E71EC57DBCAFFA570CE5301C5AB8C0E6B)
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Oh my gosh- is that the Voice of Reason I hear? Finally, we might get some actual data to work with, rather than gut feelings and brand loyalty. I, for one am looking forward to your findings!
Isn't it amazing how much oil threads resemble discussions about religion and politics? The common denominator seems to be blind faith and the necessity to selectively reject certain facts..... ;D.
PeteT.
I'm happy to look at data.
I'm happy to discus this.
But PLEASE PUT THE INSULTING BULLSHIT AWAY - equating this to "blind faith" and using inuendos that suggest those who follow the factory spec are somehow not being "reasonable".
Those of us recommending the factory specs have actually put forth as much (or more) DATA points regarding engine temperatures, experiences with the oil pressure light etc than the opposition.
We've kept it civil so far, so no reason to turn it this by acting superior about your position.
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Ok I'm out of this one. You boys please continue.
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Ok I'm out of this one. You boys please continue.
No reason, most of us can keep it civil.
Feel free to post up oil analysis data as you get it, I'm sure everyone would like to see it.
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On the Ducati link and referenced MCN test data is anyone sure that M1 15-50 still uses the same formulation as it did during that now dated test?
Don't get me wrong, I've used that oil in various bikes in the past, but I'm not sold it's necessarily the best choice these days, not for all my bikes.
Kev, here is the current product data sheet for M1 15w50
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_15W-50.aspx (http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_15W-50.aspx)
The spec (API SJ & ACEA A3) for the M1 Auto oil meets all of the recomendations for my Duc and MV.
The JASO MA just has to deal with clutch slippage. The fact that the Auto 15w50 does not have an "Energy Conserving" label on the bottle means that the contents does not contain energy conserving friction reducing additives. This makes no difference to my Duc or to my potential new MG Griso
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_oil)
Honestly tho, now that I have a US source for Agip i'd probably use it (Agip) in the Grizo as the aircooled engine may be more finicky...
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Jones, I guess I was more asking if the zddp or other additive packages had changed since the MCN test. As I understand it a wide range of oils will meet the same API ratings but additives and performance on oil analysis may vary. So my question remains does the current formulation of M1 15-50 continue to perform as well under analysis?
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Damn! I remember the good ol' days, when I dropped the better part of a quart of Penz 30 weight into that little hole in the side of my Trail 90's motor and puttered off into the unknown for countless miles of what then seemed like adventure. Ha Ha!
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Damn! I remember the good ol' days, when I dropped the better part of a quart of Penz 30 weight into that little hole in the side of my Trail 90's motor and puttered off into the unknown for countless miles of what then seemed like adventure. Ha Ha!
It was adventure. My first bike, a CT200 (Trail 90) took me everywhere even though at 11 years old I really didn't know much about maintenance. Lubed the chain once in a while, can't remember doing an oil change but I know I checked it now and then. Nothing seemed to be able to stop it, especially with the large overlay sprocket bolted on.
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And a small '60's Honda produced what? 40HP/Litre? A modern Guzzi twin is producing between 90-115HP at the crank from 1170 or whatever CC's.
Which one is going to be asking more from its oil?
Just askin'.......
VDG
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Jones, I guess I was more asking if the zddp or other additive packages had changed since the MCN test. As I understand it a wide range of oils will meet the same API ratings but additives and performance on oil analysis may vary. So my question remains does the current formulation of M1 15-50 continue to perform as well under analysis?
The "grey cap" 15w50 M1 is still recommended for use in older solid lifter engines by Mobil.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_15W-50.aspx
"Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required in newer generation vehicles."
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"""Thanks to the EPA the modern Guzzis run FREAKIN hot and the ZINC content in oil is way down."""
Does your Guzzi run hot?? I would say that mine is the coolest bike I have used lately. Never gets near hot even in slow and go. I have removed the cat and open the air and exhaust, that probably helps. While they don't have a temp gauge I suspect I could detect excessive heat and never have. My BMW would get a couple of bars above normal even water cooled bikes I have creep to the upper end of the scale at times, the Guzzi is always cool. And it got 51 mpg yesterday on a 400 mile run so I know its getting hot enough. With my knees an inch from the valve covers I would think I would know when its warm..sorry temp gauge but thats what they come with.
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And a small '60's Honda produced what? 40HP/Litre? A modern Guzzi twin is producing between 90-115HP at the crank from 1170 or whatever CC's.
Which one is going to be asking more from its oil?
Just askin'.......
VDG
But remember engines only produce those HP figure if you ride them at very high RPMs with full throttle. I doubt that is the case with 99% of bikes. Yes you will rev it up on occassion but it doesn't have to sustain that output for any length of time. Liter bikes put out 200 hp but again not for any length of time unless you are racing.
I asked a chemist at Petro Canada about ZDDP levels and what has been done to make oils better. He say the ZDDP is not the same as it used to be and is much better now requiring less than before. Seeing how long engines last these days I have to believe him.
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"""Thanks to the EPA the modern Guzzis run FREAKIN hot and the ZINC content in oil is way down."""
Does your Guzzi run hot?? I would say that mine is the coolest bike I have used lately. Never gets near hot even in slow and go. I have removed the cat and open the air and exhaust, that probably helps. While they don't have a temp gauge I suspect I could detect excessive heat and never have. My BMW would get a couple of bars above normal even water cooled bikes I have creep to the upper end of the scale at times, the Guzzi is always cool. And it got 51 mpg yesterday on a 400 mile run so I know its getting hot enough. With my knees an inch from the valve covers I would think I would know when its warm..sorry temp gauge but that's what they come with.
Well Bingo, I certainly know how to circumvent the EPA as well. ;D
The modern Big Block Guzzi is OIL and Air Cooled to counter the mandated tougher EPA and EURO standards. That is accomplished by the Engineers via Catalytic converters which adds to higher temps and leaner Air Fuel mixtures. The oil used is very critical especially the 8V motor, as mentioned before there are tiny oil orifices in and around the valve train to cool the valve train and head. These are not simply return gallery's or for want of a better word oil oozing ports for lubrication. These orifices supply a pressure stream of oil supplied by a separate high pressure oil pump to accomplish lubrication AND COOLING. Here's my layman's thoughts about using any thing but the Engineers recommend viscosity and additive package that the 4t 10w60 Full SYN contains. Think of those tiny oil orifices getting plugged up by oil that has been broken down do to high heat that it wasn't meant withstand ? So here's where I will piss some people off and probably add to my ignore list. ~; You want to trust your 5-6000 dollar engine to good ole Castrol GTX 20w50 be my guest. My old 850T and SP1000 thrived on it, my 8V Griso will die from it.
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I bought my hydro from the original owner. He used the dealer for all the oil changes. Upon examining the records, the dealer had been changing the oil with 10w60 and 20w50 until I bought the bike. Guzzi recommends 5w40, and it says so on the tank. Guzzi says they recommend 5w40 strictly because the valve gear on the hydro is different.
What about the rest of the engine? If Guzzi hasn't used different parts or tolerances in the rest of the engine, then the 5w40 is a compromise, and the rest of the engine should be getting 10w60.
I'll take butter, please.
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I bought my hydro from the original owner. He used the dealer for all the oil changes. Upon examining the records, the dealer had been changing the oil with 10w60 and 20w50 until I bought the bike. Guzzi recommends 5w40, and it says so on the tank. Guzzi says they recommend 5w40 strictly because the valve gear on the hydro is different.
What about the rest of the engine? If Guzzi hasn't used different parts or tolerances in the rest of the engine, then the 5w40 is a compromise, and the rest of the engine should be getting 10w60.
Not Necessarily.
AGAIN - remember that needs are going to vary with state of tune (which will be different on the hydros due to different cams).
Not to mention the spec on the mechanical lifter Cali's is 10W-60 OR 20W-50 so the factory engineers are allowing for more leeway on the Cali's than on the Carcs in the first place.
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The original owners manual that came with my Breva 750 called for 5W40 but an updated version was issued later in pdf format and the specification was changed to 10W60. I dumped the 5W40 and put in 10W60. The engineers at Moto Guzzi apparently determined that the 10W60 did a better job than the 5W40 so who am I to question their recommendation? If they didn't think that it perform better, they wouldn't have changed the spec.
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Not Necessarily.
AGAIN - remember that needs are going to vary with state of tune (which will be different on the hydros due to different cams).
Not to mention the spec on the mechanical lifter Cali's is 10W-60 OR 20W-50 so the factory engineers are allowing for more leeway on the Cali's than on the Carcs in the first place.
I doubt the extra 2hp has anything to do with it. Perhaps Guzzi recommends 20w50 or 10w60 for the mechanical tappet Cali's because without it, their valve train may suffer. Yeah, I think that's it.
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youre completely missing the point ( and im surprised kev hasn;t jumped in. tho you are baiting him a bit )
while i agree with your original post, and that the hydros could probably use a 50 or 60 wt especially if you live in the south where it hits 100 + the hydro part of it ( and this is important ) requires the 5w. a 10w would be risky, and a 20w just plain foolish. so until they start making a 5w-60, i'd stick with the 5w-40 that is recommended for the hydros
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...the hydros could probably use a 50 or 60 wt especially if you live in the south where it hits 100 + the hydro part of it ( and this is important ) requires the 5w. a 10w would be risky, and a 20w just plain foolish. so until they start making a 5w-60, i'd stick with the 5w-40 that is recommended for the hydros
:+1
;-T
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A number of the Italian beasts, as well as some Rotax-engined machines, call for this oil - as do most BMW cars of recent years, some Porsches and some Ferraris (I am told). Basically, it means the engine needs an oil that is moderately thin when cold (10w) that retains its essential properties even at extremely high temperatures and pressures (60). Yes, this is an over-simplification, but you know what I mean.
I stick with the spec - but I have found relatively inexpensive sources of ELF/TOTAL 10w60 from eBay, where buying by the case brings the price down to normal MC price levels (still higher than auto, for no good reason).
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I asked a chemist at Petro Canada about ZDDP levels and what has been done to make oils better. He say the ZDDP is not the same as it used to be and is much better now requiring less than before. Seeing how long engines last these days I have to believe him.
I asked a Castrol guy here the same question, he said the same as your Petro Canada guy.
I ride SB's and they can get very hot, if pushed. My old V50/III lose power and the oil lamp starts going on at 1500rpm, then I know she's hot from spinning 7-8000rpm for an extended period of time.
So I use the best 10W60 and add ZDDP to cover all bases although claimed not nessesary by the oil guy.
Ciao
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Wow..all the petro-chemical experts here! Simply amazing. ;) 8)
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Wow..all the petro-chemical experts here! Simply amazing. ;) 8)
Yes it is amazing. You are indeed fortunate to have this information. Use it to your advantage. Remember niether of us said we were chemists. We just talked to some. It pays to go to the people who know rather than listen to a guesser.
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youre completely missing the point ( and im surprised kev hasn;t jumped in. tho you are baiting him a bit )
while i agree with your original post, and that the hydros could probably use a 50 or 60 wt especially if you live in the south where it hits 100 + the hydro part of it ( and this is important ) requires the 5w. a 10w would be risky, and a 20w just plain foolish. so until they start making a 5w-60, i'd stick with the 5w-40 that is recommended for the hydros
I'm in complete agreement with you about using the 5w40 because of the hydraulic lifters. Apparently Guzzi had them made to use 5w40, whereas Harley hydraulic lifters are made to use 20w50. Guzzi didn't, in my manual, allow any latitude from the use of 5w40, so I disagree with the selliing dealer's choice of 20w50 and 10w60.
My point regards the needs of the other systems in the Cali engines. I don't have a parts manual, but I assume the other systems in the hydro engines use the same parts as in the mechanical tappet engines. If that is true, the other systems are fine with 5w40, 20w50, or 10w60. And if that is true, Guzzi is prescribing 20w50 and 10w60 for the sole purpose of lubricating the mechanical valve lifter system. Otherwise, the 5w40 is a compromise.
I've been riding mostly air cooled bikes for 40 years. We have some traffic jams around Atlanta, so the use of a thinner oil makes me a little nervous. I'm not trying to bait anyone. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
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I asked a Castrol guy here the same question, he said the same as your Petro Canada guy.
I ride SB's and they can get very hot, if pushed. My old V50/III lose power and the oil lamp starts going on at 1500rpm, then I know she's hot from spinning 7-8000rpm for an extended period of time.
So I use the best 10W60 and add ZDDP to cover all bases although claimed not nessesary by the oil guy.
Ciao
Hot?
Well, this is the most frequent temperature I read summertime
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2643/4158121208_8de98bf3fa.jpg)
For the zink additives of the standard AGIP 10-60 I know nothing, I'm more afraid of the oil withstanding the heat over longer distances, and won't be stuck somewhere with a motor clogged with resin. Seems like (the EFI-) smallblocks runs the hottest of them all. May be one of many good ideas to follow the serviceannouncement s of July 2006.
And yes, the thermometer shows right figures, as far as I can tell
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3571/3958356166_e2d38cafc9.jpg)
;D
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My kid was going to buy an oil temp gauge like that for his Greenie from Gordon at MG . Gordon said, "What do you want that for? You can only see it when you're sitting still, and it's going to read hotter than you wanted to see, anyway." ;D ;D
Apparently, he was right again..
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I'm in complete agreement with you about using the 5w40 because of the hydraulic lifters. Apparently Guzzi had them made to use 5w40, whereas Harley hydraulic lifters are made to use 20w50. Guzzi didn't, in my manual, allow any latitude from the use of 5w40, so I disagree with the selliing dealer's choice of 20w50 and 10w60.
My point regards the needs of the other systems in the Cali engines. I don't have a parts manual, but I assume the other systems in the hydro engines use the same parts as in the mechanical tappet engines. If that is true, the other systems are fine with 5w40, 20w50, or 10w60. And if that is true, Guzzi is prescribing 20w50 and 10w60 for the sole purpose of lubricating the mechanical valve lifter system. Otherwise, the 5w40 is a compromise.
I've been riding mostly air cooled bikes for 40 years. We have some traffic jams around Atlanta, so the use of a thinner oil makes me a little nervous. I'm not trying to bait anyone. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
But you're assuming facts not yet proven.
I don't know that the pistons or crank or bearings are the same.
I DO KNOW that they hydros are tuned differently, not just peak power, but the rpms where power is made. They come on stronger and more torquey from a lower RPM.
How much of a difference is that? I dunno.
I also know that the technical service bulletin came out AFTER their production and AFTER Guzzi engineers so TOTALLY screwed the pooch with repeated attempts to keep them from eating their crankshafts that I don't trust anything put in their ORIGINAL MANUAL.
The TSB came at a time where the internals of the Cali motors had been changed significantly - i.e. the Breva 1100 Spec Crankshaft, Pistons, etc - had all been introduced. That with tuning differences might very well be the reason they changed the recommendation to 10-60 on the late-model mechanical lifter Cali models, but unlike the Carc models they DO still leave the door open for 20-50.
Now as my position has been for all of this - I SUSPECT their recommendations are all based on what they believe will provide THE BEST PROTECTION/MOST PROTECTION for the models in question.
IS the 5-40 a "compromise" on the Hydro models - I stand by my original answer - NOT NECESSARILY. Go search some parts manuals and tell me what's the same, then maybe I'll relent on that.
And yes, obviously the recommendation was related to the new Cams and Valve Train.
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I just bought a new washing machine.
It says some gibberish like 120 volts in the manual
I'll just plug it into the old 220 volt dyer outlet.
Hey, it's all electricity. It'll be twice as fast to wash stuff. :) ;) :D
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I just bought a new washing machine.
It says some gibberish like 120 volts in the manual
I'll just plug it into the old 220 volt dyer outlet.
Hey, it's all electricity. It'll be twice as fast to wash stuff. :) ;) :D
Wouldn't you have to use 20W120 then? ???
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My kid was going to buy an oil temp gauge like that for his Greenie from Gordon at MG . Gordon said, "What do you want that for? You can only see it when you're sitting still, and it's going to read hotter than you wanted to see, anyway." ;D ;D
Apparently, he was right again..
Bought the thermometer when draining some odd funny textured brownish oil of that high-quality 10-50 full synth racing oil that I used to pour in. The €19 spent on the thermometer made me convinced of the idea to use the back then-proposed oil quality. ;-T
I also learned that low outside temperatures will cool the oil so bad that it will reach only 120*C.
Well spent money, IMHO. ;D
My only sorrows are the bad taste of the thermometer-soup.
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Wouldn't you have to use 20W120 then? ???
Or if you can't find that, you can just put in 7 liters of 10W60. Same thing.
Lannis
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2000 miles JEZUS KEYRIST I never went that short with Dino juice.
6k miles or a year with a quality synthetic.
I go 10K on most cars these days, 15-18k on our old Mini with the oil life monitor.
In 35 years of working on Honda cars , I have seen a lot of engines gone south . Oils have gotten to be extremely good in the last 15 years but no customer of mine is going to use the oil monitor and go 10k 15k 18k on the same oil, not even 7500 miles if I have a say about it !!! I get to think about all the Byproducts of combustion , do some of that ends up in the sump with that 18k oil ?? Please ...
Roberto.
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In 35 years of working on Honda cars , I have seen a lot of engines gone south . Oils have gotten to be extremely good in the last 15 years but no customer of mine is going to use the oil monitor and go 10k 15k 18k on the same oil, not even 7500 miles if I have a say about it !!! I get to think about all the Byproducts of combustion , do some of that ends up in the sump with that 18k oil ?? Please ...
Roberto.
Do yourself a favor and join the 21st century.
I'm NOT dismissing your past experience, I'm just pointing out it goes back so far it's tainted.
I've rebuilt my share of motors. Trust me modern oils and machines are a combination that were unequalled for the majority of your experience. 250K miles on a modern Subaru motor with M1 at 10k intervals was typical. The Mini, though we didn't tear down ran too perfectly to have been in any way questionable. It would have burned oil or the supercharger would have gone south or it at least would have blown a J2008 dyno emissions test if there was an issue.
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:)
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I just bought a new washing machine.
It says some gibberish like 120 volts in the manual
I'll just plug it into the old 220 volt dyer outlet.
Hey, it's all electricity. It'll be twice as fast to wash stuff. :) ;) :D
Heck yeah! I did that to my TV, now I can watch the game twice as fast!
(http://s13.postimage.org/6b1zox8sz/popcorn.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
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In 35 years of working on Honda cars , I have seen a lot of engines gone south . Oils have gotten to be extremely good in the last 15 years but no customer of mine is going to use the oil monitor and go 10k 15k 18k on the same oil, not even 7500 miles if I have a say about it !!! I get to think about all the Byproducts of combustion , do some of that ends up in the sump with that 18k oil ?? Please ...
Roberto.
I run a large police garage and on several occasions the vehicles were put into service and the computer was not set to pick up oil changes. So we had a few vehicles go well past the planned oil change interval. The latest one went 26000kms or 16200 miles. I had the mechanic get a sample of the oil and we sent it away to have the oil analysed. It came back as exceptable, there were no abnormal wear particle counts but they stated it was close to being ready for a change. That was just plain old Petro Canada 5W30. We have had no engine problems with our 175 vehicles and when a rocker cover is taken off to replace a gasket the inside of the engines are absolutely clean as a whistle. Most people change their engine oil far to often because it has been ingrained in them hundreds of times over the years. I used to change oils at 4000 miles in all my cars but I now change them at a higher mileage. They still use no oil and I have experienced zero problems.
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I've seen M1 oil samples come back from 15-20k miles of use (in late-model domestic vehicles of the time)that were still reading acceptable as well.
A lot of the guys on this board don't want to hear it though, so I usually don't bother telling the stories.
It's seeing these examples that first convinced me to adopt 10k oil changes on all of our cars, and THAT WAS MORE THAN A DECADE AGO NOW.
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Kev, did you see/hear that California is proposing to get rid of the very popular 3000 mile oil change with a longer interval? It's to get rid of the old belief that 3000 miles is hard and fast and even applies to new cars and oils that a majority cling to. It's for conservation and the enviroment, etc.
It's a long battle.
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I had not heard, but I'm not particularly surprised.
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Having lived in California for 59+ years, (and a credentialed drivers education and training teacher*) I was unaware that the state sanctioned in any way any intervals regarding oil changes or any other aspects of automobile maintenance other than smog check requirements.
Not sure the state can outlaw (or inlaw) the 3,000 mile change. I would be interested in in more details on this proposal, including the source of the information. We have a pretty meddlesome legislature in the Golden State, but I can't imagine the reason any of 'em might carry this.
Like most things, oil change interval is not a matter of legislation. It is a matter of education - and not in the formal sense - but in the father to son, mother to daughter hand down the facts around the campfire sorta like this:
"You know son (or daughter) back in olden days, the Indians, why, they never changed their oil at all! Neither did the pilgrims! 3,000 miles? Bah! That Speedee guy's just sellin' you snake oil."
Seriously, folks, after reading through this thread I know a hell of a lot more about oil than I thought I ever would. Too bad the information is so difficult to come by for those in the general population.
Thanks for everyone's insights on this matter.
* Full disclosure: Thankfully for the world, I never actually taught behind the wheel other than to my kids. ;)
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Patrick Bedard, in Car and Driver, wrote an article about what he called the bunkum sticker, i.e. the 3000 mile oil change myth. He labeled it a marketing gimmick.
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It was more than a decade ago when most car manufacturers moved away from 3k oil changes for normal service.
Hell even Harley went to 5k or so with Dino juice years ago.
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Patrick Bedard, in Car and Driver, wrote an article about what he called the bunkum sticker, i.e. the 3000 mile oil change myth. He labeled it a marketing gimmick.
Imagine how much money that makes for the "oil change experts". Probably a billion bucks extra per year. Back in my aviation days when we got a chip light it was as often as not from can residue. We threw away a lot of good oil. Synthetic 23699 and they still are using it. Came in cans then. Wonder who makes it and if it compares to anything auto. Compatible with ball and rollers so should work great for mc engines. Who gonna try it first. I would if I had some. Used to run fine in VW's too. lol
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http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-02-10/bay-area/17139763_1_oil-waste-car-s-oil-car-engines
http://blogs.automotive.com/california-tells-drivers-to-stop-changing-oil-every-3000-miles-70797.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/drivers-changing-oil-too-often-california-warns/article2279269/
Sounds like an uphill battle on several levels.
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Thanks, Sack. This is very interesting and helps a lot to dispel the 3000 mile myth I've been ignoring for years.
Truth be told, I get my oil changed every 5000 miles, but only because it's the only time my windshield gets thoroughly cleaned. ;-T
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After reading all the interesting info I feel that my 2005 Nevada definitely deserves Agip 10W60 oil. The only problem is where to buy it in small quantity. I don't want to be stock with 6+ years of supply buying whole case on internet. Is anybody in similar situation in Try-state area and would like to share the internet purchase of a case of it. It would come to $11/litre shipped to my address in Brooklyn, NY. Anyone interested please e-mail me, Thanks, Mike (maciek188@yahoo.com)
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After reading all the interesting info I feel that my 2005 Nevada definitely deserves Agip 10W60 oil. The only problem is where to buy it in small quantity. I don't want to be stock with 6+ years of supply buying whole case on internet. Is anybody in similar situation in Try-state area and would like to share the internet purchase of a case of it. It would come to $11/litre shipped to my address in Brooklyn, NY. Anyone interested please e-mail me, Thanks, Mike (maciek188@yahoo.com)
Mike - start a new topic with the title "Anyone want to share a case of 10/60 in the NYC area" This will get a much better response than attaching to an oil thread.
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Better idea would to be get out and ride more so you need that whole case of oil ;D
jdg
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:+=copcar maciek,if I get a b11 I will be happy to split a case...
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An oil thread with 150 posts? It must still be winter where you guys live. ;D
I use whatever the manufacturer says I should use. I guess if I was needing to add or change oil in an emergency away from home, I would use the closest spec oil available, on the theory that not enough oil or spent oil is worse than a sightly out-of-spec oil.
FWIW, the better independent European auto shops in my area strongly advise BMW owners against having oil changes done at the dealer, due to BMW's agreement with Castrol to use Castrol oils, exclusively, at their dealerships. They say the Castrol stuff is utter crap, and they cite the number of sludged engines they have had to replace for irate BMW owners as proof. These independent shops (including my mechanic) all recommend full syn Luqui Moly.
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And in other news BMW today declared bankruptcy because all their 100k mile warranty certified pre-owned vehicles all died suddenly due to using Castrol.... Or not
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Luap may have to consider a moratorium on oil threads ;D
Dusty
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Luap may have to consider a moratorium on oil threads ;D
Dusty
I think this is why there is a message that comes up if you resurrect a thread over 6 months old. P:)
You mean we really needed to bring a dead, 3-year-old oil thread back to life in the middle of the winter? :P
I suppose it's not hurting anyone, but some of those questions like "What do I do if I need 10W60 oil on a trip and I can't find it?" .... well, watch me follow my own advice and let it drop! ;-T
Lannis
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Only our oil gives you peace of mind.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/shirovasti_zpstah02tbz.jpg)
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I think this is why there is a message that comes up if you resurrect a thread over 6 months old. P:)
You mean we really needed to bring a dead, 3-year-old oil thread back to life in the middle of the winter? :P
I suppose it's not hurting anyone, but some of those questions like "What do I do if I need 10W60 oil on a trip and I can't find it?" .... well, watch me follow my own advice and let it drop! ;-T
... after replying, of course . . .;-T P:) ~;
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... after replying, of course . . .;-T P:) ~;
Not only that, but replying TWICE, once to make the point and once to respond to "Hey, YOU replied." :D
Sometimes that's why threads can never end. Nobody wants to think that someone else got "the last word in".
Now I'M in the "last word" hot seat, unless someone else just can't resist ... ~;
Lannis
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Not only that, but replying TWICE, once to make the point and once to respond to "Hey, YOU replied." :D
Sometimes that's why threads can never end. Nobody wants to think that someone else got "the last word in".
Now I'M in the "last word" hot seat, unless someone else just can't resist ... ~;
Lannis
Resistance is futile. ~;
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Interesting snippet from Bob's site regarding esters. Esters bond to the metal surfaces if the metal is positively charged. So, let's scrap all electrics and convert to positive ground.
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Interesting snippet from Bob's site regarding esters. Esters bond to the metal surfaces if the metal is positively charged. So, let's scrap all electrics and convert to positive ground.
So if I look into my oil, I can see ester? But only if I look during the afternoon.
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What is synthetic oil? Is it oil or is it something not made from oil and if it is made from oil why is it called synthetic oil? So what the hell is it?
I found this article useful:
http://www.waynesgarage.com/docs/synthetic_oils.htm
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Great information. Very interesting, so fully syn oil totally man made product, never knew that.
I bet 90 percent of people who post on these oil threads don't have a clue as to what it is. LOL
Well, to be truthful, it's not SO much more "man-made" than "regular" oil.
You still have to extract hydrocarbons (petroleum in a wide sense) from the ground (pump it out of a well) and process it via chemical reactions to produce the end-product. Just a different process with "synthetics".
Lannis
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More info than anyone would need.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles
Dean
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Dean, I love reading Oil threads, so much entertainment. The link you posted was amazing, I now I understand what is going with my BMW F800ST. Recent oil change, BMW went from recommending 10w-40 0r 15w-40 dino juice to 10w-50 synthetic. Some folks on the F800.org site swore by 15w-40 Shell Rotella Diesel, had the right additives for wet clutch and transmission. Not sure what the previous owner used, I made the switch and noticed the following. Bike shifted better, less transmission clunks into first, and was quieter 2-3 second after start up, less chain noise from valve train, however a bit harder to crank in the morning, and mind you nothing cold here this winter in San Francisco! The link explained the difference between viscosity W rating and how much better a synthetic oil flowed when cold regardless of W viscosity rating. It was long, but a good read. Short story follow what the current recommendations are from the manufacturer and read oil threads for entertainment.
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Short story follow what the current recommendations are from the manufacturer and read oil threads for entertainment.
This is the easiest to follow and most sensible bit of advice I've ever seen in an oil thread!
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Short story follow what the current recommendations are from the manufacturer and read oil threads for entertainment.
This is the easiest to follow and most sensible bit of advice I've ever seen in an oil thread!
I agree; but you need to follow the rules. Oil threads should never be contaminated by logical advice or facts.
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I agree; but you need to follow the rules. Oil threads should never be contaminated by logical advice or facts.
That's where I come in. As in I'm not a vector contaminator. Logic is for kids. ;D
Hmmmmm. Just noticed. There is "oil" in LOgIc. ;)
Bill
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Oil threads are generally just a game. No harm in them, but people do get emotional sometimes, like they might in a poker game.
They have a potentially useful role in allowing posters to point other posters to information about oil, such as the "Standards" documents for oil performance ratings, descriptions of what the weight (viscosity) figures mean, etc, although Google or something of the sort can do exactly the same thing; there's no one here who's any more of an expert on that than anywhere else. OR someone might say "Where's the cheapest place to buy the 10W60 oil that my bike uses?". Again, your search engines can find that answer faster than anyone on the list, unless you just like talking about it, which is normal.
But otherwise, it's often just a way to feed the "I Want To Be Special" and "I Want To Be An 'Insider'" jones that many people have, and that I had once till I thought about it and quit.
Every single motorcycle in the world comes with (or came with, and it's easy to find) a specification for what oil to use in it. And in Internet World, that oil is immediately available at your front door in two days courtesy of a card number and a UPS truck. It's a complete non-issue and a non-problem, finding the right oil.
UNLESS you just want a reason to be an "insider". The "insider" doesn't want to be anyone's "boy"; they don't want to use the oil or filter specified by the manufacturer, because that's what everyone ELSE does, and if everyone ELSE is doing it, then they're not "insiders". So you have to find a way to be able to say "Look over here, junior - we got the REAL info. REAL rider-mechanics don't use that 20W50 that the book says, because it hasn't got enough orc-snot in it; WE use Silverlode Special elf-lube 25W-62, and it's cheap too ...." and there's enough such factions so that they even start arguments and fights among themselves.
The real high-mileage, 100K, 200K, 300K-on-one-bike Guzzi (or other brand) riders don't play that game - they just use the recommended or equivalent oils in their bikes and ride them, because they know that NO ONE has any real, controlled, real-world-applicable information that says that if the oil is changed regularly and the bike used as designed, that one oil is any better than another .....
Anyway, that's my opinion after years and years of reading thousands of posts on many forums on the subject; it's just entertainment, like discussing whether Gil Hodges or Hank Aaron was a better ballplayer. Others' opinion may vary.
Lannis
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Hank Aaron obviously
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Well, to be truthful, it's not SO much more "man-made" than "regular" oil.
You still have to extract hydrocarbons (petroleum in a wide sense) from the ground (pump it out of a well) and process it via chemical reactions to produce the end-product. Just a different process with "synthetics".
Another type of base oil is made from refined and processed esters and is called Group V. Esters start life as fatty acids in plants and animals, which are then chemically combined into esters, diesters, and polyesters. Your vegetarian girlfriend should love that. Group V base stocks are the most expensive of all to produce. However, the esters are polar molecules and have very significant solvent properties - an ester base oil all by itself will do a very decent job of keeping your engine clean. So, people who are serious about making a superior oil will usually mix some Group V oils into their base stock.
Source:
http://calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
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Here is a link to a very good and interesting motor oil wear test. It has photos showing the actual wear and explains how the test was done along with how much pressure each oil could took for the wear shown. The top oil in their test was Penrite Synthetic 5 which I believe has been changed. I went to the Penrite website and found they make a 20W-60 racing oil called Penrite Racing 20. This oil should be about the best you can get for that weight oil. It's available from Summit Racing here in the US.
Link to the oil test: http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf
Link to Penrite: http://www.penriteoil.com.au/
Link to Summit Racing: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pno-r20w605/overview/
Al
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5 pages of oil talk. :) I have about 1500 more miles to go before my next full service using Agip 10W60. But I'm topping off my '13 V7 Stone until then using Liqui Moly from Napa - currently on sale for $10.80/liter.
(http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/GenuinePartsCompany/NWMDC?$Product=GenuinePartsCompany/1210725)
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Motor-Oil-Liqui-Moly-RaceTech-100-Synthetic-10W60-1l/_/R-AOALM2068_0435903871 (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Motor-Oil-Liqui-Moly-RaceTech-100-Synthetic-10W60-1l/_/R-AOALM2068_0435903871)
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More info than anyone would need.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles
Dean
wow, great read, thanks!!!!
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this shop offers it in SL or SG
http://www.oilchangekits.com/lubricants/liqui-moly-racing-4t-10w-60-5-liter.html